2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

I think Phil wants us to think of him as hard hitting, but right now, I just think of him as cranky.

I didn't really see the comment as either hard hitting or cranky. I mean, when I saw all those 100+ TES/ 190+ overall scores from the majority of this men's field, the first thing that came into my head is that "Man all those 160+/80+TES scores look far less impressive now."

I also though -- confession time -- I'm sort of worried of whether the U.S. men can keep 3 spots.

 

[leolion11]

No,I don't blame Phil for the fact that no US man qualified for the GPF. And I don't blame Phil for the fact that so far, the US men cannot consistently put together the jumps and the performance of the YFC possibly T crowd (hey initials work for pairs).

But Phil has so consistently framed even good news in a negative fashion (and not in the "hey I'm a journalist just laying out the sad facts for all to see" mode, but the, "hey, I'm going to write a reply brief using all the words that just skirt the edge and support my opinion" mode), that right now he could tell me the sun rises in the East, and I'd dismiss it.

I think Phil wants us to think of him as hard hitting, but right now, I just think of him as cranky.

Did the top four men at GPF throw it down, and do the US men need to bring their A game? Yes, they did, and yes, they do.

But the point stands that Phil, no matter how harsh he can be towards the US men, IS undoubtedly right about the state of US men's figure skating right now. I suppose your bias is keeping you from fully agreeing but the fact is undeniable, though I do hope the US men can step up their game soon. At this point, it is rather hard to see any of the US men as legitimate contenders for the podium at worlds.

I'm also really interested to see how Grant will progress. I haven't paid much attention to him but his FS at NHK really caught my eye. Hope he does well at nationals!

 

[caitie]

I feel like the landscape has changed really fast. The top men had been doing two, three quads last season, now all of the sudden Hanyu is landing five and we have some juniors who have come on the scene like Uno and Jin who can also put up Hanyu-like TES. Probably more are on the way. It's a brave new world, etc.

I guess people like me who rolled their eyes at Christine Brennan and Phil Hersh's irritating dourness at Nationals last season can admit they were right to worry. I do think the US men have been falling behind and we don't really have a complete skater like Hanyu or Javi or Shoma who can do the big tricks and skate really beautifully as well. Nathan Chen is exciting but he strikes me more like a Nam than a Shoma, at least for now.

 

[el henry]

But the point stands that Phil, no matter how harsh he can be towards the US men, IS undoubtedly right about the state of US men's figure skating right now. I suppose your bias is keeping you from fully agreeing but the fact is undeniable, though I do hope the US men can step up their game soon. At this point, it is rather hard to see any of the US men as legitimate contenders for the podium at worlds.

I'm also really interested to see how Grant will progress. I haven't paid much attention to him but his FS at NHK really caught my eye. Hope he does well at nationals!

There are two points, which I think may be confused:

1. The top three, or four, men's FS at GPF were stellar. The U.S. men need to step it up. I said that earlier.

2. I didn't read all of Phil, because I just ignore him; based on his previous commentary. So he may have phrased his criticisms differently this time, and if he did, I apologize. If he didn't, he is *not* "telling it like it is", but repeating the same tired criticisms in the same tired way.

Bias has nothing to do with it. See No. 1. My appreciation, or lack thereof, for Phil's writing style does. Everyone else may find his style to be master truth telling, and that's cool. As always, YMMV. But I wanted to be clear, my issue is *not* that the U.S. men can do no wrong; it's that Phil's crankiness grows wearisome.

I much prefer my own crankiness

 

[Mrs. P]

I feel like the landscape has changed really fast. The top men had been doing two, three quads last season, now all of the sudden Hanyu is landing five and we have some juniors who have come on the scene like Uno and Jin who can also put up Hanyu-like TES. Probably more are on the way. It's a brave new world, etc.

I guess people like me who rolled their eyes at Christine Brennan and Phil Hersh's irritating dourness at Nationals last season can admit they were right to worry. I do think the US men have been falling behind and we don't really have a complete skater like Hanyu or Javi or Shoma who can do the big tricks and skate really beautifully as well. Nathan Chen is exciting but he strikes me more like a Nam than a Shoma, at least for now.

I think Nathan is sort of in the middle. He actually has decent speed and good skating skills. Before Shoma got his jumps and Nathan was sidelined by injuries, Nathan did beat him in juniors. I haven't seen Shoma live, but I have seen Nathan and can say that Nathan doesn't have the same charisma/performance ability.

I do think that there was some PCS/GOE candy giving though at this competition, so I wondering if the scores (not that this changes anything) are a bit exaggerated -- hence the gap being much more exaggerated.

We'll see I guess.

I have numbers to back this up later. But my quick U.S. power rankings at the moment.

1.) Max Aaron
2.) Nathan Chen
3.) Adam Rippon
4.) Jason Brown
5.) Grant Hochstein
6.) Ross Miner
7.) Tim Dolensky
8.) Vincent Zhou


It's going to be an interesting nationals!

 

[shmay]

Barring injury, I don't really see Max Aaron or Nathan Chen being left off the Worlds team at this point. And barring an injury or meltdown from the top five GPF finishers, it's looking like the US men will need to finish 6th and 7th in Boston to maintain the 3 spots. Precarious.

By the way, have there been any updates on Andrew Torgashev recently? Is he healthy again? Is he planning to compete senior or junior at Nationals?

 

[snowflake]

I think Nathan is sort of in the middle. He actually has decent speed and good skating skills. Before Shoma got his jumps and Nathan was sidelined by injuries, Nathan did beat him in juniors. I haven't seen Shoma live, but I have seen Nathan and can say that Nathan doesn't have the same charisma/performance ability.

I do think that there was some PCS/GOE candy giving though at this competition, so I wondering if the scores (not that this changes anything) are a bit exaggerated -- hence the gap being much more exaggerated.

We'll see I guess.

I have numbers to back this up later. But my quick U.S. power rankings at the moment.

1.) Max Aaron
2.) Nathan Chen
3.) Adam Rippon
4.) Jason Brown
5.) Grant Hochstein
6.) Ross Miner
7.) Tim Dolensky
8.) Vincent Zhou


It's going to be an interesting nationals!

You don't see Dornbush among the 8th best
Agree about Max. He is the only one I'm sure will medal and probly win gold.

Interesting is the word... hope all of them step up and do better than they have so far!

 

[ice coverage]

... By the way, have there been any updates on Andrew Torgashev recently? Is he healthy again? Is he planning to compete senior or junior at Nationals?

Torgashev is not competing at Nats.

ETA (on Dec 14), his tweet at the time of Sectionals (which he missed):

https://twitter.com/andrewtorg29/status/664475332108513281 (Nov 11)​

 

[Mathman]

I was into Grant Hochstein before being into Grant Hochstein was cool! :yes:

Also, I second Snowflake: What about Ricky Dornbush?

 

[Mathman]

... so far, the US men cannot consistently put together the jumps and the performance of the YFC possibly T crowd (hey initials work for pairs).

Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez and Ten.
We are the men. We are the men.

If you’re lookin’ for trouble, we’ll call your bluff;
Wanna join our club, better bring your stuff!

 

[Mrs. P]

Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez and Ten.
We are the men. We are the men.

If you’re lookin’ for trouble, we’ll call your bluff;
Wanna join our club, better bring your stuff!

Nice! Shoma is making a case for being a charter member.

 

[rosacotton]

Barring injury, I don't really see Max Aaron or Nathan Chen being left off the Worlds team at this point. And barring an injury or meltdown from the top five GPF finishers, it's looking like the US men will need to finish 6th and 7th in Boston to maintain the 3 spots. Precarious.

Will Nathan Chen do both Jr. and Sr. Worlds if he finishes in the top 3 at Nationals? Having won the GPF, am I right in assuming he's now set himself up as one of the favorites for Junior Worlds, and that the federation would want him to win that title?

 

[sequinsgalore]

Will Nathan Chen do both Jr. and Sr. Worlds if he finishes in the top 3 at Nationals? Having won the GPF, am I right in assuming he's now set himself up as one of the favorites for Junior Worlds, and that the federation would want him to win that title?

When Dornbush as the reigning JGPF champion placed 2nd at US Nats, he was sent to Worlds only (placing 9th). It was the year Rogozine, Tanaka and Majorov medalled at Junior Worlds, and Dornbush could definitely have beat them easily with the scores he consistently posted that season. Maybe Dornbush reclined?

Fun fact: Dornbush and Chen both placed 3rd, 4th, 1st at JGPF (the same order)

 

[caitie]

Will Nathan Chen do both Jr. and Sr. Worlds if he finishes in the top 3 at Nationals? Having won the GPF, am I right in assuming he's now set himself up as one of the favorites for Junior Worlds, and that the federation would want him to win that title?

He is old enough to go to Worlds. If he places in the top 3 at Nationals, I think they will send him.

As far as the fed goes, I remember they did send Adam back to Junior Worlds (wasn't that after he'd already won and started skating senior?). Kori Ade talked with TSL about how USFS asked Jason to keep competing in Juniors the year after he placed 2nd at Junior Worlds. IIRC she also implied that they had wanted Mariah Bell to skate at Junior Worlds last season but Mariah didn't want to because she felt like it would be a step backwards.

So even if the USFS would like to send him to win Junior Worlds, they seem to listen to the skater. Nathan attempting so many quads at the JGPF says to me that he is not looking to go back to Junior Worlds again if he has the option to go to Worlds.

 

[Ice Dance]

Will Nathan Chen do both Jr. and Sr. Worlds if he finishes in the top 3 at Nationals? Having won the GPF, am I right in assuming he's now set himself up as one of the favorites for Junior Worlds, and that the federation would want him to win that title?

His response during the What's Next portion of the press conference after the JGP was Nationals and then either Senior Worlds or Junior Worlds depending on how he did at Nationals. I think the assumption is one or the other.

My personal thoughts on your second question:

The U.S. may very well need Nathan at Senior Worlds more than it needs him at Junior Worlds. His goal all season appears to have been a top three finish at Nationals. I don't think that goal was based on wanting to win Junior Worlds. Everyone else at that press conference was talking about JW as their goal and the mistakes they had made. Nathan, OTOH, said quite clearly that he had met his goals at the JGPF. (I'm thinking that means 1. he landed the quad sal and 2. he won). IMO, he put that quad sal into the program because he's a competitor and he wants on that senior team. Wants it badly. He's done everything USFSA could have asked of him.

I don't think the Federation should undercut his motivation if he proves he's top three at Nationals. With at least three other junior guys stepping it up on the junior scene during the JGP, there's no reason to believe U.S. junior men's skating is in peril. If Nathan doesn't finish top three at Nationals, then I'm sure USFSA will be thrilled to send him to Junior Worlds. But Nathan has brought home more hardware than any U.S. man this season. He's landed two different quads. His scoring potential in the short program is higher than what we've seen because he hasn't been able to compete the quad in the short. Most of our senior men are losing to the same guys Nathan has been competing against over the last several years. This isn't Japan. We don't have three World medalists or four GP title holders who could be selected above him for the senior team. If he finishes top three at U.S. Nationals, it will likely be because he's one of our top three.

 

[ice coverage]

His response during the What's Next portion of the press conference after the JGP was Nationals and then either Senior Worlds or Junior Worlds depending on how he did at Nationals. I think the assumption is one or the other. ...

Nathan did not say, "... either .. or." So even if it is your assumption, maybe it is not his assumption.

Nathan Chen on the win and beyond: “... Nationals will be the decider for Four Continents and junior worlds and senior worlds. Depending on how I do there, it will determine what the rest of my season looks like.”

http://www.usfigureskatingfanzone.com/competition-central/gpfbarcelona-team-usa-competition-central/

 

[Ice Dance]

So even if it is your assumption, maybe it is not his assumption.[/I]

Yes, you may be right. I did not personally recall a time when USFSA sent someone to both Junior and Senior Worlds so perhaps that is why I make the assumption. Athletes do go compete at Junior Worlds as seniors. That certainly happens, but the ones I remember were all athletes who did not qualify for the Senior World Team--either due to age/limited senior spots/or lower placements at Nationals: Adam, Michelle, Sasha, Mirai, Karen, etc. However, I did go hunting through the archives a bit and Belbin & Agosto did attend both Senior and Junior Worlds back in 2002. So while it is uncommon, apparently there is a precedent.

 

[shmay]

It would be kind of stupid to send Nathan to Sr. and Jr. Worlds in terms of injury risk, energy level, etc.

Zhou and Krasnozhon can get the 3 spots back for Jr. Worlds 2017

 

[karne]

I still don't understand why Nathan's fans are so keen to rob him of a Junior World title. He'll get more cash and ranking points for winning that than he will for going to Worlds where he could wind up anywhere from 15th to 8th. It's also quite the reputation booster with the judges, too. Look at Shoma and Evgenia. Both came into the season with the boost of being the Junior World Champion, and that had to have been a confidence booster as well.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I still don't understand why Nathan's fans are so keen to rob him of a Junior World title. He'll get more cash and ranking points for winning that than he will for going to Worlds where he could wind up anywhere from 15th to 8th. It's also quite the reputation booster with the judges, too. Look at Shoma and Evgenia. Both came into the season with the boost of being the Junior World Champion, and that had to have been a confidence booster as well.

This is very much how i feel. He will almost certainly do better next season with a junior world title than he would do however he does at worlds this year.

I actually think he should go to junior worlds as a form of good sportsmanship as well. Really the best junior skaters in the world deserve to get to skate at junior worlds against the best junior skaters in the world. Not the best junior skaters that were left over after the best got promoted up to senior worlds. A part of me thinks the other junior skaters deserve to get to face Nathan at junior worlds. Nathan *could* have skated senior this year... i know he said he did not have the points/score, but he could have started at the bottom so to speak. Tyler Pierce is young enough to skate junior but she skated this season as a senior even though at the start she had no assignments - but she did it, it can be done. Nathan could have done the same, but he choose (good choice i think) to skater in the junior grand prix - as such he should skate at junior worlds, proudly, as the reigning junior grand prix champion.

Honestly the sport as a whole should respect and support the entire junior circuit. The junior world podium should not be scoffed at, but should be respected... there is no reason for it to not be coveted. I see no reason why Nathan should not go out to junior world, win gold and wear his titles proudly.