2015 Europeans Men's Short Program Jan 28

[Alba]

I guess we'll have to disagree here. I never understood the logic of awarding points for transitions into a failed jump. Do the darn jump. The transitions should be rewarded in the second mark, in TR. I think we need to cut down on giving a large number of points for a badly done element. I mean, if your landing lacks flow or you're a bit forward, sure, I'd give you plain ol' 0 for hanging on. But if you put a hand or a second foot down (or both, in the case of Kovtun!)... at the very least -2. -3 in most cases. It's unfair to people who actually fought for their landings and made it on one foot. I can only get behind -1 if it's a very slight, barely noticeable brush of the free foot in a otherwise good jump.

But it's one of the bullet points for jumps. A jump that approaches the ideal technical position in all four phases of the jump recieves the highest marks from judges.

1. Entry
2. Take-off
3. Air position
4. Landing or exit
​

NOTE: A superior landing is clean, fully rotated, and has a smooth, controlled flowing exit edge. Because the exit is the last phase, difficulties at this stage can drastically influence the GOE marks judges will award.

So yes, a 0 is generous although judging by the above not that much. For sure a -3 is too much. I can see your point for Kovtun though.

I'm actually okay with Javi's PCS. But I just cannot understand 45 TES for that skate.

For me the StSQ was too much, and the IN&PE deserved less, as someone mentioned above. So yes, maybe 5 to 6 points max to lead, not 8.

 

[Sandpiper]

It's one of the bullet points, but I can't agree with it. Just like I don't agree with 0 for Zayak (see, it all balances out for Javi ). I mean, what if someone had a beautiful quad in the air but went total splat on the landing? What's the point of awarding something like that? Ultimately, you need to land on an edge, not just throw yourself in the air.

I might give -2 to Javi's combo, because the step-out there wasn't as bad (he actually held it for a moment), and the first jump was good (the "otherwise good qualities of the jump" as you mentioned). But definitely not the 4S.

I already think mistakes are being rewarded too well, and I don't want to see judges increasing the problem with -1s.

 

[Alba]

^ Well, he didn't execute just one bullet though.

Anyway, what you're saying is a whole different discussion. I see your argument, but I'm also afraid that if you penalize too much the errors skaters would try less difficult elements. Tricky thing.
The solution would be to give better GoE's to clean jumps, no matter the difficulty, maybe?

 

[Mrs. P]

As it stands, you get more maximum +GOE by doing quads and 3As, though some would argue the gap isn't enough. Maybe the scale of values need to be adjusted to account for jump difficulty?

 

[Alba]

As it stands, you get more maximum +GOE by doing quads and 3As, though some would argue the gap isn't enough. Maybe the scale of values need to be adjusted to account for jump difficulty?

Like adding levels to the jump you mean? It could be a good solution, although it could make things more complicated. I don't know...

 

[Mrs. P]

Like adding levels to the jump you mean? It could be a good solution, although it could make things more complicated. I don't know...

Not necessarily.

Right now, a +3 doing a quad or 3A gets you 3.00 points.
A +3 doing other triples gets you 2.1 points.

I'd say I'd increase the value of a +3 for a quad or 3A, perhaps.

 

[Alba]

Not necessarily.

Right now, a +3 doing a quad or 3A gets you 3.00 points.
A +3 doing other triples gets you 2.1 points.

I'd say I'd increase the value of a +3 for a quad or 3A, perhaps.

Yep, that's good. Clean and simple.

 

[unico]

I think that:
-falls should be -3 GOE MANDATORY, not -3 GOE from what you would have given the jump otherwise
-stepouts should be a -2 GOE MANDATORY, again, not -2 from what you would have otherwise given if landed cleanly
-hands down -2 GOE mandatory
-two foot -1 GOE or lower mandatory
-any combination of the above errors should be automatic and non-negotiable -3 GOE

Any transitions, 'tanos, etc can be rewarded in both the TR mark and in the +GOE, but if the jump landing is flawed I don't think that they should play a factor in the -GOE.

As for the +GOE/-GOE scale, I don't like swinging too far in the direction of rewarding quads/3As because then we can run into situations like Hanyu's SP at the GPF with the 3Lz+3T(fall)x10% being mitigated by the superior quality of his 4T/3Ax10% versus Machida's 4T+3T(stepout) and clean 3A/3Lzx10%. I just want GOE to be simpler, instead of the GOE factoring (0.5, 0.7, 1.0 etc), I would prefer a standardized scale of -1 GOE = -15% and 1 GOE = 10%

So the scale would be
-3 GOE -2GOE -1GOE 0 1GOE 2GOE 3GOE
-45% -30% -15% 0 10% 20% 30%

For a 4T (BV 10.3) that would be
5.67 7.21 8.76 10.30 11.33 12.36 13.39
vs what is currently in place:
7.30 8.30 9.30 10.30 11.30 12.30 13.30

I was thinking perhaps -20% per -1GOE, but that might be too harsh. I think that if the negative GOEs tip the scale like this to punish bad elements more than reward well done elements, skaters will be slightly more encouraged to go for elements they can rely on to land cleanly, rather than coin-tossing a quad just for the points of a rotate-and-fall. I think it's also easier to memorize standard percentages than to remember the different GOE factors.

ETA: Using percentages would solve the problem of rewarding more difficult combos. Under the current system a +3GOE 4T+3T equals 10.3+4.1+3=17.4, but using a percentage of 1 GOE=10%, it would equal 18.72. A +3 GOE 3T+3T would only yield 2.46 points for GOE (plus the BV), but a +3 GOE 3Lz+3T would earn 3.03 points in GOE.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't think Javier deserved -3 for the Salchow

He did. The air position was tilted, didn't get much height and barely rotated it, stepped out, and he put a hand down on the ice. That's -4 in deductions right there. +1 for the entry still puts him at -3 GOE.

What a poorly skated SP competition this was.

 

[chairmanmao]

That's all subjective. If it didn't interrupt the performance for you, it did for me. The transitions/speed is also rather subjective thing. It is not a speed competition, and unless a skater is actually slow it should not be a matter for judging. Ashley is fast enough, it is not that she is significantly slower, like Polina Edmunds. If the transitions cause messy impression from a performance like sometimes in case of Pogo or Elena, than I'd prefer Wagner's smooth movements and lines with more clarity. Again it is very subjective. Mishin, for example, considers that to execute a jump on the high speed without extra "jerking" around before the jump is harder and makes the jump more beautiful, so he obviously does not care about transitions much, still Liza gets high PCS. Again everything is subjective with this PCS thing (it was created to have a room for politics), therefore I don't see any point of arguing any more.

You seem to prefer empty programs with lots of backstroking and no transitions but the judges think otherwise. There is a reason why Hanyu and Fernandez are the top guys in the world. They combine intricate choreography, big jumps and last but not the least the most difficult transitions of anyone right now. If you like to watch hugely telegraphed jumps thats your call but don't complain when they score low in transitions and don't get high GOE's.

 

[noskates]

Wow. Just watched the Mens SP - what a mess! I do think Javi was the best all-round skater out there, however. I just want him to skate a clean program once.....I prefer his skating to Hanyu's and love Black Betty. He really sells it. Not going to get into the whys and wherefores but not impressed with Voronov or Kovtun.