- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
come one, he did a 4-386 for Voronov with 2A ? Sorry. I am not buying it
2015 Europeans Men's Short Program Jan 28
- Thread starter dorispulaski
- Start date
I double that. 4-6 points difference would be fair, not 8. It is possible that it will be crucial for the final results. Myzyk was unique
A bit of a disappointing event... No real clean programs from, well, anybody.
The placements are fine, but I gotta say, looking at the protocols, the judging was a mess. Not in terms of PCS, but in terms of TES:
- Javi got mainly -1s and -2s for the failed 4S. Only one judge gave him -3. He received -1s and -2s for the mistake on the combo, and one judge even gave him 0! (I would've given it -2 because the first jump was good, but even -3 wouldn't be out of the line). Not to mention the GOE for the footwork.
- Sergei's scores were mainly fair, except for the three -1s for the 2A (he doubled out on his plan, but the jump itself wasn't worthy of negative GOE, especially compared to everyone else's marks).
- Two judges gave Michal no GOE for his 4S.
- Two judges gave Maxim -2 for his 4S. It was nearly a fall, and there were no good features about the jump to give anything less than -3. His GOE for the 4T ranged from -1 to -3. Again, I'd give it -3, at most -2 for being less awful than the 4S.
- Peter Liebers got a mix of 0s and -1s for his hand down on the axel. On the other hand, I thought they were stingy with GOE on his excellent 3F-3T; should've received +2s across the board.
- Florent got some -1s for his 3S. That was a bit harsh; he popped the quad, but it was a perfectly respectable 3S.
In terms of the skaters themselves, I give Sergei credit for being the least messy of the bunch. What a shame for Michal... wonderful 4S and 3A, then loses it on a 3F. Considering his PCS, I think the judges would've really gone with him if he were clean. Outside the main contenders, Ivan Righini was a joy to watch, not letting the fall affect him at all.
As a side note, if we compare directly with American Nationals, there do seem to be a difference in values. I can't help but think that if these guys were all American and competed in front of an all-American panel, Liebers of all people would be leading. I mean, he skated a near-clean program, just slightly worse technically than what Josh/Jeremy did at Nationals, and he had the "transitions" that seem to reign supreme in North America. Yet here he ends up in fifth place with lower PCS than a guy with two stumbles, a guy with a doubled jump, a guy with a fall and no combo, and a guy with two stumbles and no combo. I'm not saying which judging is better than the other--in fact, I agree with neither--but it's just something interesting to note.
The placements are fine, but I gotta say, looking at the protocols, the judging was a mess. Not in terms of PCS, but in terms of TES:
- Javi got mainly -1s and -2s for the failed 4S. Only one judge gave him -3. He received -1s and -2s for the mistake on the combo, and one judge even gave him 0! (I would've given it -2 because the first jump was good, but even -3 wouldn't be out of the line). Not to mention the GOE for the footwork.
- Sergei's scores were mainly fair, except for the three -1s for the 2A (he doubled out on his plan, but the jump itself wasn't worthy of negative GOE, especially compared to everyone else's marks).
- Two judges gave Michal no GOE for his 4S.
- Two judges gave Maxim -2 for his 4S. It was nearly a fall, and there were no good features about the jump to give anything less than -3. His GOE for the 4T ranged from -1 to -3. Again, I'd give it -3, at most -2 for being less awful than the 4S.
- Peter Liebers got a mix of 0s and -1s for his hand down on the axel. On the other hand, I thought they were stingy with GOE on his excellent 3F-3T; should've received +2s across the board.
- Florent got some -1s for his 3S. That was a bit harsh; he popped the quad, but it was a perfectly respectable 3S.
In terms of the skaters themselves, I give Sergei credit for being the least messy of the bunch. What a shame for Michal... wonderful 4S and 3A, then loses it on a 3F. Considering his PCS, I think the judges would've really gone with him if he were clean. Outside the main contenders, Ivan Righini was a joy to watch, not letting the fall affect him at all.
As a side note, if we compare directly with American Nationals, there do seem to be a difference in values. I can't help but think that if these guys were all American and competed in front of an all-American panel, Liebers of all people would be leading. I mean, he skated a near-clean program, just slightly worse technically than what Josh/Jeremy did at Nationals, and he had the "transitions" that seem to reign supreme in North America. Yet here he ends up in fifth place with lower PCS than a guy with two stumbles, a guy with a doubled jump, a guy with a fall and no combo, and a guy with two stumbles and no combo. I'm not saying which judging is better than the other--in fact, I agree with neither--but it's just something interesting to note.
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2014
Since Fernandez's SP keeps getting geo-blocked in the USA (and a few other countries) by Sony Music on sites like YouTube, I have made an alternate Google Drive location of my recording:
Javier Fernandez SP B.ESP2 (streaming and downloadable)
Sorry for the cross-posting, I've just known that only a select audience of the world can actually see the YouTube video without being blocked. :scowl:
Javier Fernandez SP B.ESP2 (streaming and downloadable)
Sorry for the cross-posting, I've just known that only a select audience of the world can actually see the YouTube video without being blocked. :scowl:
I agree with you. This judging of TES esp. was indeed hard to comprehend, and both Kovtun and Fernandez were overscored.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
I enjoyed his skating as well. A bit reminiscent of Elvis.
A skater I missed this year was Paul Bonifacio. His enthusiasm was very contagious at the Olympics.
Keep in mind in the case of Michal (and Maxim), they have no steps going into their solo jump. Some judges recognize this, hence -2 GOE deduction.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2014
Sabinfire, it's not your fault.
Actually, with such a lengthy waiting list, I'm not at all interested to watch this event live on line or on TV. To say the least, FS is getting increasingly unpopular and uninteresting as time goes by.
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- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I double that. 4-6 points difference would be fair, not 8. It is possible that it will be crucial for the final results. Myzyk was unique
I agree Javier in particular was overmarked
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
I wouldn't complain about Voronov's mark but I am saying Javier was too generously marked for his mess and skating skills not equivalent to Hanyu, Chan or other Japanese skaters or D Ten.
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2012
Sergei does have a lot of charisma actually, but he doesn't have the skating skills, transitions, choreo and interpretation that Javi has. So yes, even with a step out Javi deserves to be ahead of him. I'm saying this as a Voronov fan.
Not that I like his skating so much, but I like him and he has big jumps.
I can agree to a point; Javier had way too many errors though for him to have such a big lead He will win even if he skates badly because he has an overly generous cushion that is not merited for all his erros the pcs should have been affected.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2012
Pavel was a skater that reminded me a lot of Kovtun...but some how I liked him more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKCYKNoPvH4
I think the over all choreography and packaging was better done, so maybe Kovtun's team could steer him in this direction?
Of course, Pavel doesn't have Kovtun's speed or big jumps, but he has a connection to the music and posture that Kovtun can try to aim for-yet sill within his inherent style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKCYKNoPvH4
I think the over all choreography and packaging was better done, so maybe Kovtun's team could steer him in this direction?
Of course, Pavel doesn't have Kovtun's speed or big jumps, but he has a connection to the music and posture that Kovtun can try to aim for-yet sill within his inherent style.
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2014
I partially agree with you. Where I agree was the component score where Javi was overscored. Consider that PChiddy and Hanyu usually get scored in the 9's for SS and TR. In this case, I think Javi was scored about right relative to them SS wise but underscored where TR is concerned. His SS while not Hanyu or Chan level, certainly is still better and bigger than Kovtun or Voronov. Where I think Javi was overscored is in the IN. The programme is very upbeat and fun but I think Javi didn't do enough credit to it. He was too stiff and his expression not sufficiently energetic. I think the SS is fine but I do think the IN should be lower and the overall PCS about a point less for not doing sufficient justice to a fun programme. Those stumbles and two foots were penalised in TES but I think they are not sufficiently jarring to warrant a huge penalty in PCS but the judges have already cut his PE - he usually can score about 9 in that aspect when clean. Where I think he deserves marks docked in TES is the GOE of his StSq. I think it should only be about +1 which will result in a TES of a point less. Overall, he should only be ahead of Voronov by about 6 and not 8 which will be about right.
Okay, that could explain Michal (the lack of steps cancelled out the GOE he would've gotten for the great 4S). This makes me even more saddened that he didn't just go for 4S-3T--the landing looked good enough to pull it off, and he wouldn't have ended up combo-less after the flip.
However, this doesn't make the judging any easier to understand. Maxim does 4T with no steps and a messy step-out. Some judges still gave him only -1. I certainly hope they weren't the same ones who gave Michal 0, because in no world does either of Kovtun's quads deserve within 3 points of Michal's GOE.
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2014
I don't think he deserved -3 for the S and the combo though. I can see that for Kovtun because he has such a terrible position, and no step before the jump, but Javi has short entry&features and much better position. I agree that one 0 was too generous from that judge, but -1 is about fair. I would understand -2 also, but honestly I think a -2 it's harsh.
He might've been overscored in PCS by 1 or 2 points at max? I don't think it was a bad judging.
I agree about Sergei and his 2A GoE's. I really hate when judges give negative GoE's just because a skater doesn't execute a planned 3. That's idiotic logic, IMO.
However, it really was obvious that he popped the Axel and that's never good with the judges. He never gets "love" - or better say "encouragement"- scores from them though, and that's a pity.
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I guess we'll have to disagree here. I never understood the logic of awarding points for transitions into a failed jump. Do the darn jump. The transitions should be rewarded in the second mark, in TR.
I think we need to cut down on giving a large number of points for a badly done element. I mean, if your landing lacks flow or you're a bit forward, sure, I'd give you plain ol' 0 for hanging on. But if you put a hand or a second foot down (or both, in the case of Kovtun!)... at the very least -2. -3 in most cases. It's unfair to people who actually fought for their landings and made it on one foot. I can only get behind -1 if it's a very slight, barely noticeable brush of the free foot in a otherwise good jump.
I'm actually okay with Javi's PCS. But I just cannot understand 45 TES for that skate.
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