2015 World Team Trophy Mens FS Apr 17

[jenaj]

I did not intend to be rude. The fact is that US team has very few man skaters able to perform quads. Therefore they concentrate on foosteps, spins (and triple Axel) and choregraphy, to gain maximum points on technical elements that are not jumps. That is what I call "US mentality".
It can provide very beautiful skatings, like Jason Brown's today skating.
But talking about jumps, it is riskless.

Max Aaron is very capable of performing quads. And Josh Farris is too, but needs consistency. The only skater you are referring to is Jason Brown. I'm sure Jason will be working on a quad, but for now, he has to make the best of what he has. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Mrs. P]

Heh I knew you'd respond. My theory is everything matters as part of ANY artistic presentation, down to the last detail. Judges have proven to be fickle minded ALL the time. It wouldn't be the first time some random impression get distorted with things that has nothing to do with skating.

Thankfully, that wasn't the case today and it hasn't been the case in other skates. I think judges generally like where he's going with his programs hence decent PCS scores since he was a senior. But in my opinion, I don't feel like he should feel obliged to act a certain way when he's done skating.

ETA: I feel this way with every skater. I think this should be made clear. Every skater has a different personality and when the skate is over they should be able to loosen up anyway they want to. If they believe staying stoic and focus is the best way, more power to them.

 

[silverlake22]

There is only one philosophical issue with this argument. It's not about "cheating" - Jason is doing his job within rules and doing it nicely. I enjoy his skating and enjoyed it even more live at COR this season but.... I also enjoyed skating of Stephan Lambiel at Averbukh's show. Many skaters say how taxing quads are, how difficult it is to make a complete FS especially with multiple quads. Are they valued enough if they are so hard to be seamlessly introduced in the flow? I am not sure. Take "grossly overscored" Kovtun here. 158 He did 2T rather than 4T -11 points, he could have done 3Lz-3T instead of 3Lz-2T: -4 points, then he had 1 messy combo: -3 points. Other things being equal if he had done all the jump content cleanly he would have had 3 quads and 6 triples and he would have still lost to more artistic Jason with 8 triples. Kovtuns only chance would be to add the second 3A for the unheard of tech content: 3 quads, 2 3A, and 5 other triples. Only then would he beat Jason today. For me it is unfair - it is still sport of pushing the boundary of possibility.

If Kovtun had gone out and skated a clean program, his PCS would have gone up and he likely would have outscored Jason. I feel like Jason definitely deserves to be way ahead of Kovtun in PCS but that Jason also got a boost to his score because he skated that program perfectly. When you go clean, there's that magic that allows the judges to go up with the scores and really reward the performance - that happened to Jason here. Once there are mistakes, the magic is lost and the scores go back to reality. So really, I don't think it's fair to say a clean Kovtun FS with 3 quads would be outscored by Jason - he hasn't skated the program totally clean this season, so we can't say what his score would be. My guess though would be that the score would be really high, as he would receive the bonus for skating perfectly.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think quads are awarded enough points right now; about double that of a triple jump.
If it goes any higher, it would encourage more quads for sure; but to the detriment of the other aspects of skating that are still important, like being able to jump all the different triple jumps.
I do agree that a bonus could be given for a Quad-triple though, since it is very difficult to do.

I think there needs to be some sort of bonus BV for doing combos in general not just the BV of the individual jump. There should also be a bonus in the scale of values in +GOE for combos as well.

 

[silverlake22]

Yuzu is NOT going to stick with just one quad. You can be sure of that.

Yuzu even seems so determined as to not ditch the 4s for a second 4t. The 4s has never been that consistent for him (though it's gorgeous when he lands it), but he still always goes for it in the FS because he wants to challenge himself. Sure he could put a second 4t in instead and do a combination with it, and point wise, it wouldn't make much of a difference, but that's not the way Yuzu is. Plus, I think it's good he always goes for the 4s in his FS because that's the only way he's ever going to get it consistent in competition - by going out and trying it every time.

 

[[email protected]]

If Kovtun had gone out and skated a clean program, his PCS would have gone up and he likely would have outscored Jason. I feel like Jason definitely deserves to be way ahead of Kovtun in PCS but that Jason also got a boost to his score because he skated that program perfectly. When you go clean, there's that magic that allows the judges to go up with the scores and really reward the performance - that happened to Jason here. Once there are mistakes, the magic is lost and the scores go back to reality. So really, I don't think it's fair to say a clean Kovtun FS with 3 quads would be outscored by Jason - he hasn't skated the program totally clean this season, so we can't say what his score would be. My guess though would be that the score would be really high, as he would receive the bonus for skating perfectly.

I agree and I think that today everyone got what he deserved in terms of placing which matters at WTT.

 

[caitie]

Honestly I totally understand Jason's strategy, when he attempted a quad in competition, more than being a fail, it was really costly. But the shame is that his other jumps are sometimes not as solid as they should be. He was my revelation of the 2013-2014 season, and I was quite disappointed with the struggles he had this year, with the triple axel for example, when it should be a formality.

It almost looked like he lost his triple axel over the summer when I watched his first competition... It just wasn't there. Olympic seasons are very long and difficult, hopefully that won't happen again.. also I don't think his triple axel has ever been "solid as a rock" tbh? It seems like it is in a better place at the end of this season than last season, though. As long as he moves it up that second LP 3A he seems capable of landing three in a competition now.

 

[Pika]

It almost looked like he lost his triple axel over the summer when I watched his first competition... It just wasn't there. Olympic seasons are very long and difficult, hopefully that won't happen again.. also I don't think his triple axel has ever been "solid as a rock" tbh? It seems like it is in a better place at the end of this season than last season, though. As long as he moves it up that second LP 3A he seems capable of landing three in a competition now.

Maybe last season I was kinda mesmerized by this young skater arriving in the senior field in a crucial season, but I remember much better jumps (and quite impressive). "solid as rock" was just a quote from Kori Ade but I still want to see it

 

[Mrs. P]

It almost looked like he lost his triple axel over the summer when I watched his first competition... It just wasn't there. Olympic seasons are very long and difficult, hopefully that won't happen again.. also I don't think his triple axel has ever been "solid as a rock" tbh? It seems like it is in a better place at the end of this season than last season, though. As long as he moves it up that second LP 3A he seems capable of landing three in a competition now.

For some reason, he struggled with that second 3A, even when it was in the front of the program (as the case was last season). He was 5/5 with the 3A last season in the SP, so he had some consistency with the jump there. This season, I think part of the struggles of a 3A was the hangover of a long Olympic season (as you noted) and perhaps getting use to two programs not quite in his personal comfort zone.

It's sort of like Yuzuru's 3Z-3T in the SP this season. Obviously he can do that jumping pass with his eyes closed, but for whatever reason (mental lapse, injury, something else) he missed it in every international competition (can't remember if he did it at nationals) this season except for Worlds.

My hope is that the new entrance will stick and that we'll see some more consistency with the jump next season. And of course Yuzuru doesn't mess up on what has otherwise been a lovely 3Z-3T jumping pass in past seasons.

 

[TMC]

You could name the same feature the way which will not sound offensive: Americans know how to present (sell) themselves. Isn't it true in general?

No, that's not the same thing at all. To say that the reason that US men are not doing quads is some sort of "US mentalilty" is not the same as saying that one person representing the US can sell a programme.

 

[silverlake22]

One thing I will say about Jason's performance though, which was awesome and I loved, however:

- No quad
- No 3a-3t
- No 3a in the 2nd half

That's rather first-year-junior to be scoring 176+. That being said, everything else he does is far from first-year-junior so I can forgive him somewhat. But, if the quad isn't coming soon, he at least needs to master the 3a in the 2nd half. I know points wise he can switch up his layout so front loading the 3axels won't cost him points, it more just affects the program construction. When I see a program with both 3a at the beginning of the program, it gives me the "about 16, new to seniors, just mastered the 3a recently" vibe, which detracts from the brilliant vibe the rest of Jason's skating give me. JMHO, but if he keeps this layout he'll continue to get flack for being the National Champion that can't do a quad and can't even rotate a 3a in the second half of his program. His scores speak for themselves but still, people will complain.

 

[Mrs. P]

One thing I will say about Jason's performance though, which was awesome and I loved, however:

- No quad
- No 3a-3t
- No 3a in the 2nd half

That's rather first-year-junior to be scoring 176+. That being said, everything else he does is far from first-year-junior so I can forgive him somewhat. But, if the quad isn't coming soon, he at least needs to master the 3a in the 2nd half. I know points wise he can switch up his layout so front loading the 3axels won't cost him points, it more just affects the program construction. When I see a program with both 3a at the beginning of the program, it gives me the "about 16, new to seniors, just mastered the 3a recently" vibe, which detracts from the brilliant vibe the rest of Jason's skating give me. JMHO, but if he keeps this layout he'll continue to get flack for being the National Champion that can't do a quad and can't even rotate a 3a in the second half of his program. His scores speak for themselves but still, people will complain.

I'm sure they want to master the 3A in the second half too, since he had been attempting it there all season long. (And FWIW, he did have a ratified 3A(x) with positive +GOE in the second half at 4CC).

Likewise during his actual debut senior season, they also worked on a 3A-3T as well, but ultimately felt they could gain more points doing a 3A-2T and a 3F-3T(x) rather than trying to force a 3A-3T where he would likely get less +GOE. Again, maybe if there was a bonus for doing a 3A-3T in either BV or GOE they might keep at it. But under how combos are scored, he gets so much spring on his 3F-3T, it makes sense to do that combo rather than force a 3A-3T.

The program is supremely difficult in other ways. 6 out of his 8 jumping passes, including his 3-3 and a 3-1L-3S combo, are in the second half and just about every jump is done with few crossovers and with loads of transitions in and out.

Again, it comes down to what will help your skater show up in competition. Perception sucks, but it doesn't matter if you get the scores from the judges. I suppose it's annoying to constantly hear fans complain, but really they don't matter all that much in the end. I think they choose to get the feedback they feel will help him advance in his career.

All that said, given the fact they've changed that FS layout like a million times this season alone, I don't expect them to keep the same layout next season. I'm thinking they opted to move the 3A up because Kori knew that Jason was tired from Worlds and decided that was the was the best way to get a clean program.

Also, I'm willing to take WTT numbers with a grain of salt since it seems judges are quite generous. I don't expect him to get 89 at the GP and we'll see if he can hit those higher TES numbers this fall.

 

[deedee1]

I've only watched the second gourp on TV tonight, thanks to TV Asahi. :sarcasm:
I really loved attack by Han and Takahito thruout their free programs, though not perfect. I just wish both could have skated like here tonight in Shanghai three weeks ago... And Jason's powerful skate was juuuust magical! For me Jason's and Denis Ten's are the best men's LPs of the season. :yes:

 

[Mrs. P]

I've only watched the second gourp on TV tonight, thanks to TV Asahi. :sarcasm:
I really loved attack by Han and Takahito thruout their free programs, though not perfect. I just wish both could have skated like here tonight in Shanghai three weeks ago... And Jason's powerful skate was juuuust magical! For me Jason's and Denis Ten's are the best men's LPs of the season. :yes:

I'm hoping that the TV Asahi versions of the final group's programs come out soon! I want to see the awesome men in better HD!!

I feel you though. Tape delay sucks. Glad it was worth the wait!

 

[deedee1]

As I watched Max's Black Swan, I kept talking to my computer screen as he kept impressing me more and more :yay:. His years of work on his components are really paying off.

(Haven't had a chance to watch Jason's FS, but I am happy for him as well .)

Your comment makes me smile. I'm happy for Max and for you! Can't wait to watch his program on big TV screen tomorrow.

 

[SashaJuliaSpins]

Just watched Jason's FP on YouTube! Pure AMAZING!

:thumbsup: I second that!! Picasso on ice!

 

[cheerknithanson]

:thumbsup: I second that!! Picasso on ice!

And ALL the competitiors were so happy for him that they came into the USA Kiss and Cry section!

 

[hurrah]

With Mao not skating, I have not really paid attention to figure skating all season, but happened to watch the last three men and I have to admit I cried for the first time for Yuzu tonight. Was really impressed with his mental strength, and I thought his skating has really, really improved and his spins were outstanding!

Hope he will remain injury-free until the next Olympics is over. He is really on a different league.

 

[SashaJuliaSpins]

Honestly sometimes I think they look like brother and sister, I mean Yuna and Yuzuru. Their bodies type are alike as well. But obviously I don't want to get killed. Now you're saying this ha ha ha

U r right! They do look alike to pass for siblings. Don't hurt me people, just stating the obvious, since Meoima also observed the same thing I saw! :shocked: They r both outstanding in their skating too!

Well he did express Yuna Kim is one of his fav skaters along with Mao. I kind of appreciate this vail they has the moment they stepped onto the ice. Their performance start from the moment they start at warm up all the way to the end of kiss and cry. Not just during the music and choreography. When people break out of the mood from the program immediately, it can often take me out of the 'zone' to fully appreciate the work. Imagine the song 'you are my sunshine' coming up at the end rolling credit of Schindler's list... it would be rather jarring. (bit like experiencing Jason's FS here)

at your last comment about the song in Schindler's list. Did not know he said that about Mao and Yuna...He knows greatness in his craft when he sees one (or two) and he is not afraid to be associated with it! He has the same ease of movement and calm as those two skaters you mention are two of his favorites!

 

[SashaJuliaSpins]

And ALL the competitiors were so happy for him that they came into the USA Kiss and Cry section!

He was also so gracious by acknowledging and giving at least two of them a hug (two that I saw before the end of the video)!