2016-17 State of Japanese Ladies Skating

[Meoima]

2010 was the year I started to pay serious attention to figure skating. Now I recall that many comments on Mao's Youtube videos mentioned her jumps are "cheated", which probably mean UR and wrong edge.

Yes, if there has been any lady who got the most criticism about her jumps, it has always been Mao. Not just youtube viewers, but international commentators who keep emphazing on her "bad technique". Even during her performances in WC 2010 (which she did great and won) they kept talking not about her. It was disrespectful.
Mao has always had technical issues, however it is not that much worse than other girls of her same generation. Flutz? Many ladies flutz. UR her 3-3? Many ladies UR their 3-3 as well. It is true that she should not be spared for the issue but I don't see that any of the current Japanese ladies get just 50% of the attack that Mao has been through.

 

[yyyskate]

2010 was the year I started to pay serious attention to figure skating. Now I recall that many comments on Mao's Youtube videos mentioned her jumps are "cheated", which probably mean UR and wrong edge.

Mao's jumps are really under-rotated. if you go to watch them practice in person. you will see (she is still competing, so you still have the chance). skaters like Satoko or Julia etc. may have smaller jumps but their jumps are indeed fully-rotated. that means, their jumps ice landing are clean (backwards). but Mao's are not. it is very obvious. Coaches who watch skaters practice know this.
I am not a fan of small jumps or pre-rotations, but as far as under-rotation goes, it is what it is.

 

[Meoima]

Mao's jumps are really under-rotated. if you go to watch them practice in person. you will see (she is still competing, so you still have the chance). skaters like Satoko or Julia etc. may have smaller jumps but their jumps are indeed fully-rotated. that means, their jumps ice landing are clean (backwards). but Mao's are not. it is very obvious. Coaches who watch skaters practice know this.
I am not a fan of small jumps or pre-rotations, but as far as under-rotation goes, it is what it is.

Well it is true that tech panel do not call them BUT they should have called pre-rotations as it is still not enough rotatition don't you think. In most case, I think pre-rotation is not better than under-rotation at all.

 

[topaz emerald]

Yes, if there has been any lady who got the most criticism about her jumps, it has always been Mao. Not just youtube viewers, but international commentators who keep emphazing on her "bad technique". Even during her performances in WC 2010 (which she did great and won) they kept talking not about her. It was disrespectful.
Mao has always had technical issues, however it is not that much worse than other girls of her same generation. Flutz? Many ladies flutz. UR her 3-3? Many ladies UR their 3-3 as well. It is true that she should not be spared for the issue but I don't see that any of the current Japanese ladies get just 50% of the attack that Mao has been through.

I could not agree more....I've followed her career closely since she was 14 years old. No matter how good her triple triples were, the ISU judges always under-rotated it. She actually had a good triple flip/toe combo, but she never attempted it (except when she won her first worlds title) because ISU judges always docked her on it. It went from let's dock her on her triple triples to lets dock her on the lutz edge call to let's finally dock her on her triple axel....it was beyond disgusting. I still LOATHE those judges to this day, and have always felt they played a HUGE part in Mao's decline technically....there are some more factors, but I've always felt judges played with Mao's mind. And it's disgusting now, because there seems to be a double standard held in favor of today's generation of skaters....

 

[gotoschool]

Mao's jumps are really under-rotated. if you go to watch them practice in person. you will see (she is still competing, so you still have the chance). skaters like Satoko or Julia etc. may have smaller jumps but their jumps are indeed fully-rotated. that means, their jumps ice lanIf yoding are clean (backwards). but Mao's are not. it is very obvious. Coaches who watch skaters practice know this.
I am not a fan of small jumps or pre-rotations, but as far as under-rotation goes, it is what it is.

Mao actually has as much and often more rotation in many of her ur calls than those skaters with a lot of pre-rotated jumps that are not called or compared to those with traditional take-offs who often have their landing hooks ignored while Mao's are given urs. This is is even more the case in major championships like the Grand Prix Final, the Olympics and Worlds. Slow motion instant replays indicate this. Mao often takes off with less than 180 degrees of pre-rotation with heavy pre-rotaters often taking off 60-90 degrees later than Mao. The idea of not looking at take off when calculating rotation on jumps makes the whole process of making ur tech calls erroneous. Mao also does not bend or hunch a lot on landing to absorb the impact of the landing, which enhances the aesthetics of her jumps but sometimes causes slight wobbles in the boot for which she has sometimes received erroneous tech calls (such as the triple axel in the Grand Prix Final SP). No matter what the official scores say, it is a widespread view that Mao gets very harsh tech calls and PCS scores that are too low compared to her competitors , as the huge number of comments from her videos, forums and even sports announcers indicate. Mao like all skaters sometimes under-rotates her jumps but her overly harsh, double standard and / or bogus tech calls make it appear that she under-rotates far more than she actually does relative to her competition, especially those who receive the most generous rulings.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Mao's jumps are really under-rotated. if you go to watch them practice in person. you will see (she is still competing, so you still have the chance). skaters like Satoko or Julia etc. may have smaller jumps but their jumps are indeed fully-rotated. that means, their jumps ice landing are clean (backwards). but Mao's are not. it is very obvious. Coaches who watch skaters practice know this.
I am not a fan of small jumps or pre-rotations, but as far as under-rotation goes, it is what it is.

This is very incorrect. Fully rotated. Lol And the sky is pink...

 

[yyyskate]

simply posted some info based on my observation for one poster. I knew this would come and ofc will not argue. This thread has become "Mao is the biggest victim ever" thread again long before that... I should have avoided. but somebody asked...
Really like many young and upcoming Japanese skaters nowadays, that is the reason why I visit this thread.

 

[mary01]

Yes, if there has been any lady who got the most criticism about her jumps, it has always been Mao. Not just youtube viewers, but international commentators who keep emphazing on her "bad technique". Even during her performances in WC 2010 (which she did great and won) they kept talking not about her. It was disrespectful.
Mao has always had technical issues, however it is not that much worse than other girls of her same generation. Flutz? Many ladies flutz. UR her 3-3? Many ladies UR their 3-3 as well. It is true that she should not be spared for the issue but I don't see that any of the current Japanese ladies get just 50% of the attack that Mao has been through.

did we watch the same competition i remember them praising her technique like crazy during 4cc and worlds, repeatedly saying it was quality jumps, taking notice and praising the difficult content only she attempted and praising her awesome elements!

 

[mary01]

It seems to me that because of, really, her only bad skate of the 2013-2014 season - Sochi SP - is making people forget that she scored around 73 for EVERY SP she did that season, and in the high 130s for FS. Mao on her good days can and should beat most of the ladies. Certainly Gracie and Ashley, as well as most of the Russians. The fact that Ashley Wagner (yes, Ashley Wagner of all people) can get the highest skating skills in a world championships and that Mao is ranked in the same component tier as someone as sloppy as Elena Radionova shows that there is seriously something wrong with the rationale behind judging. Many ladies get the benefit of the doubt but Mao rarely has and rarely does, not to mention the numerous incorrect UR calls she gets on 3F+3Lo. Do judges/tech panel even know what they're doing?? AND how fair is it that skaters like Satoko who so egregiously pre-rotates her jumps can score on the order of almost 5-10 points more than Mao on technical elements?? That seriously needs to be looked at because calling some skaters for UR but not calling others for pre-rotation is NOT fair...

This, and i totally agree something is totally off with the judging system, and something better change

 

[Meoima]

did we watch the same competition i remember them praising her technique like crazy during 4cc and worlds, repeatedly saying it was quality jumps, taking notice and praising the difficult content only she attempted and praising her awesome elements!

WC 2010 SP video, same commentators as this FS https://youtu.be/hsCZCM8AKCU
But I couldn't find the SP commentary again, only the FS

 

[mary01]

WC 2010 SP video, same commentators as this FS https://youtu.be/hsCZCM8AKCU
But I couldn't find the SP commentary again, only the FS

They didn't say anything bad about her jumps or technique, and had nothing but praise just like i remembered when i watched it live. Watch the other commentators you would notice that they were praising her nonstop, and repeatedly said it was quality jumps, and kept mentioning how a 3A should be worth more etc.

 

[Meoima]

They didn't say anything bad about her jumps or technique, and had nothing but praise just like i remembered when i watched it live. Watch the other commentators you would notice that they were praising her nonstop, and repeatedly said it was quality jumps, and kept mentioning how a 3A should be worth more etc.

I repeat: look for the SP, same commentators or so. I remember it was very bad with 2 ladies talking. And in the comments some people complained: "This is Mao's skating, why they talked about other skaters?"

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It went from let's dock her on her triple triples to lets dock her on the lutz edge call to let's finally dock her on her triple axel....it was beyond disgusting.

You think the edge calls are unwarranted?

 

[topaz emerald]

You think the edge calls are unwarranted?

no, but there is a double standard for certain skaters on who gets an edge call and who doesn't....

also, when she was a junior, the rule didn't exist, not until she became senior and when competition with Yuna got fierce. By then it was too hard to correct her edge

 

[gotoschool]

Perhaps I should have been clearer then. She can't do it anymore in competition without getting UR calls, which is what matters in the end.

Whether you view it as right or wrong, to the people I know what the judges say matters very little because they don't watch performances to see the scores. What matters to them is seeing a performance they love to watch. I am sure it matters to Mao somewhat, but on the other hand Mao said she was very happy with her performance in the freeskate at Worlds 2016 and didn't really care about scores or points afterwards, likely because she landed the triple axel and triple flip and loop, and to the people I know who watched the performance they didn't look at the protocols or analyze instant replay for small hooks or slight touches of the ice or edges just as the tech crew was less diligent in analyzing calls for other skaters in the last group, while it pored over Mao's with a fine tooth comb. Whatever mistakes many people see, many others thought Mao's jumps, movements and expression in her performance was beautiful, and if Mao hadn't done that beautiful combination. which was unique for any women in the competition, it would have taken something special away from her magical performance and Mao would have been less satisfied as well. That is what matters to me instead of a mere tech call.

 

[ioanna]

Whether you view it as right or wrong, to the people I know what the judges say matters very little because they don't watch performances to see the scores. What matters to them is seeing a performance they love to watch. I am sure it matters to Mao somewhat, but on the other hand Mao said she was very happy with her performance in the freeskate at Worlds 2016 and didn't really care about scores or points afterwards, likely because she landed the triple axel and triple flip and loop, and to the people I know who watched the performance they didn't look at the protocols or analyze instant replay for small hooks or slight touches of the ice or edges just as the tech crew was less diligent in analyzing calls for other skaters in the last group, while it pored over Mao's with a fine tooth comb. Whatever mistakes many people see, many others thought Mao's jumps, movements and expression in her performance was beautiful, and if Mao hadn't done that beautiful combination. which was unique for any women in the competition, it would have taken something special away from her magical performance and Mao would have been less satisfied as well. That is what matters to me instead of a mere tech call.

You contradict yourself. You say the judges' opinions and the protocols don't matter but I see you analyzing protocols and making comparisons between how the judges mark Satoko in comparison with Mao all the time, here and on YouTube videos. If Mao's happiness and satisfaction matters to you more than judging, then act like it.

 

[Interspectator]

A good 24hrs for the Japanese ladies.
Mai Mihara winning the Nebelhorn Gold with 2 clean programs
Rika Kihira winning with a history making 8-triple program
Marin holding on to second and keeping hope alive for the JGPF
Splendid work everyone.

 

[gotoschool]

You contradict yourself. You say the judges' opinions and the protocols don't matter but I see you analyzing protocols and making comparisons between how the judges mark Satoko in comparison with Mao all the time, here and on YouTube videos. If Mao's happiness and satisfaction matters to you more than judging, then act like it.

I wrote a couple of posts about Satoko's tech calls (not all the time) and other skaters were included a couple of times in those posts, but I tried not to criticize anyone and just talked about rotation or edges. But, emotions sometimes ride high so it may not have come off that way. I have also written compliments about Satoko and other skaters currently competing. I think Satoko is graceful and I am impressed with her consistency and her ability to learn to jump and spin in an opposite direction. In the Satoko thread, you wrote that some Mao fans were being mean to Satoko. I can understand how much you didn't like that comment, but I believe most all Mao fans don't think this way. I can also understand that you don't like it when people post videos of Satoko's jumpatrons suggesting that she had urs that were not called and I now understand that my comments about Satoko's tech calls upset you. So hopefully, you can see how some Mao fans would get upset by posting a video of Mao on this thread and saying this is allegedly "proof" that Mao cannot rotate her triple / triple combo and then posting protocols after people have mentioned that she has endured a lot of very harsh tech calls, especially since so many people feel this way. We both wrote comments about Satoko and Mao's tech calls before this, so I guess we both got upset. I would like to get along even if we disagree. Whatever the case, the fact that feeling runs this high shows that Satoko and Mao will both be remembered for a long time for having fans that support them so much.

Happy birthday Mao and I hope Mao and Satoko skate great this season.

 

[gotoschool]

Congratulations to Rika Kihara for being the second lady to land a triple axel in Juniors and for giving such a beautiful and technically difficult freeskate and to Marin Honda for coming back in the long too.

 

[miki88]

I'm always amused at the arm-chair analysis of Mao's jumps that goes on in forums. Thankfully, I don't see it as much as before. Often, sweeping general statements of her jumps are made and rarely are there any clear and detailed explanations provided, which really suggest that these 'analysts' don't really know what they're talking about. Yes, she does have UR issues but according to protocals (if one is to base arguments on them), she has also gotten a lot of difficult jumps ratified over her long career, and during periods where calls were much stricter than now.

The system does have its biases. Lips tend to be more often overlooked than flutzes. Loop combos seemed to be scrutinized more. Other skaters who previously did loop combos like Miki and Adelina also stopped doing it later in their careers. Mao stopped doing the combo for many years.