2016-2017 State of Canadian Figure Skating

[Skatergal101]

Nationals Is going to be good!

 

[4everchan]

tell this to Liza... I don't think judges do it quite like that... it's like Patrick who prefers doing 4T-3T in his programs as it is the hardest combo... while everyone knows that if he put the 3T after the Lutz in the SP, or even move the 3T later in the LP, his BV would be increased... he is not seen with any advantage doing the harder combo... and others putting the 3Ts later in their programs, combining with easier jumps are not regarded less for that, and even get a 10% bonus.

Of course you can go with easy jumps 3T+3T, but it shows that skater is lacking skills or uncompleted somehow. High class skater can do it, lower - can't.

 

[4everchan]

Gabby's 3t+3t is huge and impressive, and IMO she is smart to start her FS with a big trick that grabs the judges' attention in a positive way.

Your post would be a perfect answer... so i fixed it accordingly. No need for the rest.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Of course you can go with easy jumps 3T+3T, but it shows that skater is lacking skills or uncompleted somehow. High class skater can do it, lower - can't.

The quality of Gabby's 3T/3T sets her apart from all other women in the field and with +GOE, it's a show stopper! No need to change it at this point

 

[TGee]

Of course you can go with easy jumps 3T+3T, but it shows that skater is lacking skills or uncompleted somehow. High class skater can do it, lower - can't.

Uhm, a supposedly high class skater with micro, pre-rotated jumps of murky edges is not the ideal many of us are looking for. Doesn't complete anything if the quality isn't there. And as judging is trending away from tolerance for low quality triples, at least in terms of edge quality to start, it doesn't seem wise to encourage them.

Many Canadians look at the kind of 3Lz that Liz Manley did (and is featured in another active thread on why can't women jump like this) and set that for the standard.

 

[eyeballlickinggecko]

Off the top of my head, I can only think of Maria Sotskova who currently has a reliable true lutz and flip and does both in the FS. She sometimes gets < on them but I think it's more of a stamina issue than any issues with the jumps themselves. GOE seems to be about average.

 

[blue_ice]

Uhm, a supposedly high class skater with micro, pre-rotated jumps of murky edges is not the ideal many of us are looking for. Doesn't complete anything if the quality isn't there. And as judging is trending away from tolerance for low quality triples, at least in terms of edge quality to start, it doesn't seem wise to encourage them.

Many Canadians look at the kind of 3Lz that Liz Manley did (and is featured in another active thread on why can't women jump like this) and set that for the standard.

I think Gaby could be perfectly fine with nice 3T+3T in the top 4-12
To get to the podium I think she needs second mark or difficult jumps. But maybe podium is not worth the risk. She is still a lovely skater, I like her speed and athletic skating her 3t+3t look gorgeous

 

[Mango]

Gabby has gotten great PCS this season. Like Kaetlyn, Gabby's PCS went up.

We had this discussion after Skate America and the conclusion 4everchan and Osmond4Gold reached was that Gabby should do 3T-3T because her 3Lz has a lot of power. So much power that she sometimes has difficulty controlling the landing, causing her problems in adding a 3T to it. It's much better for her to do 3T-3T with +3.00 GOE than to do 3Lz-3T and fall or get poor GOEs.

But with figure skating I think we should realize it's not a 'one size fits all' thing with layouts. The ISU certainly has requirements that must be met. But apart from that skaters should do what they're most comfortable with that maximizes their points, at least at the senior level. Like someone who can't land a 4Lz shouldn't be doing one just to take a hard fall, risk injury, and get some BV points. It's better to do jumps you can do well than jumps you may underrotate, get edge calls on, or risk falling. If anything one can look at Alaine's issues with the 3Lz-3T in the SP this year and understand that. You need to be smart about what you're doing. Not doing a 3Lz-3T but still getting 72 points in the SP doesn't make you weak or 'not a real jumper' IMO.

In general the Canadian ladies need to be doing more 3-3 combinations. A 3-2 does not cut it anymore internationally neither at the senior nor the junior level. Which is why I'm a bit disappointed to see that aside from Gabby only Sarah Tamura, Emily Bausback, and Kim Decelles were successful with 3-3 combos. The few who did try 3-3 ended up with 3-3<. There are a few novice girls doing 3-2 combos and even a 2A-3T. So many of the junior and senior women are at or behind the level of the top novice women. What does that say about the system? If what TGee has been telling us is true it's the fact that the Canadian women are not technically advanced enough at a young enough age to be able to do things like 3-3 combos consistently. That for me is more concerning than the results of this weekend.

 

[4everchan]

good points Mango..

however, the fact that there are 4 girls who landed their 3-3 this weekend, plus Alaine and Kaetlyn who also have theirs... IS WONDERFUL! Let's hope that some of the other senior girls who missed their big combos this weekend will land them by Nationals...

I mean, just 6 years ago, nobody was doing a 3-3 in Canada... Joannie won her bronze at the games without one. That just tells you how far our ladies have gone in such a short time. From 0 to a handful is considerable IMHO.

I am quite excited that our girls are making ground. Yes, I agree.... we are behind other countries but we are catching up.

 

[Mango]

Good points as well, 4everchan.

By the way, we've hit 50 pages. Yay! :yay:

Canadian skaters are off to GPF Marseille.

Julianne/Charlie: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNqHlDzAvYZ/
Eric: https://twitter.com/Rad85E/status/805879892122411008

Meagan and Eric are ready to compete: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNiB8feAmmf/

 

[4everchan]

woot!


i mean for the 50 pages... i have been bantering on the challenge thread mostly today.


re meagan and eric : read the comments Piper is hilarious

Good points as well, 4everchan.

By the way, we've hit 50 pages. Yay! :yay:

Canadian skaters are off to GPF Marseille.

Julianne/Charlie: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNqHlDzAvYZ/
Eric: https://twitter.com/Rad85E/status/805879892122411008

Meagan and Eric are ready to compete: https://www.instagram.com/p/BNiB8feAmmf/

 

[blue_ice]

We had this discussion after Skate America and the conclusion 4everchan and Osmond4Gold reached was that Gabby should do 3T-3T because her 3Lz has a lot of power. So much power that she sometimes has difficulty controlling the landing, causing her problems in adding a 3T to it. It's much better for her to do 3T-3T with +3.00 GOE than to do 3Lz-3T and fall or get poor GOEs.

This is the most hilarious excuse I ever heard

 

[lyndichee]

I still think Gabby should be working on upgrading that combination for Olympic season. A maxed out 3T+3T is 10.70 points while an average 3Lz+3T is already 10.30 in base value. Even a little GOE could get more points. If not the 3Lz+3T, she could put her 3T-3T in the second half as well.

I just hope coaches don't go in the direction of making smaller jumps to gain consistency. I miss the 2013 Gracie jumps and Kaetlyn + Gabby's jumps are very refreshing. Kaetlyn's 3F+3T literally sails across the rink.

 

[4everchan]

This is the most hilarious excuse I ever heard

I still think Gabby should be working on upgrading that combination for Olympic season. A maxed out 3T+3T is 10.70 points while an average 3Lz+3T is already 10.30 in base value. Even a little GOE could get more points. If not the 3Lz+3T, she could put her 3T-3T in the second half as well.

I just hope coaches don't go in the direction of making smaller jumps to gain consistency. I miss the 2013 Gracie jumps and Kaetlyn + Gabby's jumps are very refreshing. Kaetlyn's 3F+3T literally sails across the rink.

A few of us have had that debate over and over. At Skate America, Gabby did the 3Lz-3T , 3F and 2A SP.

Base value : 6+4.3 + 5.3 + 3.3 = 18.9

As we saw there, huge issues on the lutz... also she often gets a ! on her flip... most likely, GOE for this layout is negative.

After seeing her gorgeous Ina Bauer 3t-3t in the LP, and remembering that's what she also used at worlds which placed her in the top ten for both SP and LP... we started chanting for Gabby to go back to the easier BUT way better GOE earner 3t-3t...

Here's the base value
3t-3t, 3lz, 2a
8.6 + 6 +3.3 = 17.9

The difference is a mere point... and when considering GOE and the potential edge call, there's really no advantage for Gabby to do the 3Lz-3T in the SP.

Kaetlyn has the same issue in some ways. A potential call on her lutz could lower drastically her base value. It's a risk she's comfortable in taking. I don't remember when she received a deduction last.

However, most girls use the loop as their solo jump nowadays because they are indeed afraid of getting the deduction.

Gracie's flip is a mess this year. She should use the loop in the SP.

Let me remind everyone of Satoko's layout which had 2 2A-3T combos when she won her silver medal... now wakaba is doing twice the 3Lz-3T... the point is that with the current rules, harder combos are not counted as such since individual jumps are simply added together... So, Gabby, repeats the same jumps as Satoko or Wakaba for instance... while Medvedeva repeats even easier jumps with the 3F and the 3T...

None of the top girls repeats the lutz and flip in the LP anymore... more and more repeat the 3t... the change in base value, lowering the flip and increasing the toe has helped that...

most base values, unless a lady includes a 3A will be very similar nowadays... so what makes the ultimate difference is GOE and consistency.

So no lame excuse here. Gabby is the only lady to ever have received +3 GOE across the board for a 3-3 combo of any kind... and now, her rippon lutz is also a candidate for high GOE ... why not use those jumps in he SP? The SP is so important nowadays... and with her "easy" layout she did score huge in France...

 

[TGee]

This is the most hilarious excuse I ever heard

blue ice, I look forward to your joining us on the threads where we are doing a great deal of analysis, not to mention hand wringing, that the current GOE bullet point system and the Statement of Values structure is not incenting big, clean but high risk jumps.

But we've heard that 5 point GOE structure is in the future, and some of us are hopeful that it will help move the incentives in a direction that we'd like to see.

If your vision of a "complete" skater has the more difficult triples that are actually taken off on clear edges and not excessively pre-rotated, and have height and distance, I think that you'll find a lot of support for your views.

But be prepared to have your list of the 'most complete' challenged, because folks are fond of using slow motion or jumpatron analysis. And many of the higher ranked finishers, both women and men, at last year's Worlds have triple jumps that don't look all that great when examined closely.

 

[lyndichee]

post

I have seen the debate and the numbers but I am not talking about consistency. If Gabby can get 72+ (not on home ice too) internationally, then she can score higher than that if she upgrades the combo. I'm talking about Gabby being a podium threat. I don't think it's as simple as "no lame excuse".

 

[Mango]

I guess next time I see Gabby at a COS event I'll have to ask her what her lame excuse is for doing the 3T-3T. I'll have to ask her too where all the prep over the summer with the 3Lz-3T went. For it to magically disappear from her programs it must have been quite bad even in practice.

 

[Mango]

Oh yeah, I just remembered. Gabby has arthritis in her right foot. Would make jumps that require picking on the right foot more difficult for her to do. Jumps like the flip and Lutz.

 

[4everchan]

I have seen the debate and the numbers but I am not talking about consistency. If Gabby can get 72+ (not on home ice too) internationally, then she can score higher than that if she upgrades the combo. I'm talking about Gabby being a podium threat. I don't think it's as simple as "no lame excuse".

but that's the thing we will disagree on and that's fine.

72+ was done with a gorgeous 3t-3t, with +3 Goe across the board.

her first above 70 score. There is not a single SP including 3Lz-3T from gabby that scored that well... it's a number's game.... upgrading the jumps doesn't always translate in higher points. It has to be a balance between BV and execution.

I think that Gabby, and Liza for instance do better with this layout and unless ISU starts rewarding the more difficult combos, there's no point risking to get a lower score... if she succeeded, as I have explained, she may get 73 or 74... it's not like she would suddenly get 80.


ETA : gabby's layout 3t-3t (8.6) 3lz (6) 2a (3.3) = 17.9
: zhenya's layout 3f-3t (9.6 ) 3lo (5.1) 2a ( 3.3) = 18

 

[TGee]

Dropping a line to note that the Skate Canada Challenge discussion thread broke 12k views! Wow :clapper:

Dorispulaski has posted all the videos to be found on Dailymotion.
Some key podium skates are still missing. :dumb:

Hope someone at Skate Canada is aware because there was a lot of interest from within Canada and globally. :
Would be very important to get those up asap so that there is transparency going into nationals. :ddevil: