2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[karne]

Rules are a coach has to be registered as a coach to put a skater on the ice. Zoueva could not coach him at the event without being listed as one of his coaches. This is not that unusual.

Is this strictly true? A coach has to be registered as a coach, but I did not think they had to be registered as the skater's particular coach. It is common in interstate events here, for example, for a local coach to put a skater on the ice instead of the expense of that skater's coach travelling.

 

[Sydney Rose]

FWIW, Nathan's ISU bio -- which was updated yesterday -- still says that his coaches are Raf and MZ.
And that Nathan trains in California and Canton.

http://www.isuresults.com/bios/isufs00054124.htm​

In any case, I am a fan of Nathan (as well as of Adam), and I don't agree with the implication that Nathan ever has had clear-cut status as Raf's top men's skater.

I wasn't implying anything about the pecking order at Raf's rink; I was just wondering if Raf was coaching any other top male skaters. Because if he's not, that means he would probably be open to coaching another top male skater, should the need arise.

But since YOU brought up pecking order: I do recall that when Dave Lease visited Raf's rink last year, he did say that Nathan had priority over Adam. I don't see that as surprising or unusual and it doesn't mean that Adam was neglected. And Dave could have been wrong about that; he's wrong about a lot of things.

 

[ice coverage]

So apparently Nathan really has split from Rafael (per IFS Magazine).

Does that make Adam Rafael's top male skater now?

Wasn't Adam was always Rafael's top male skater, since he was US champ and Nathan was not? ....

I wasn't implying anything about the pecking order at Raf's rink; I was just wondering if Raf was coaching any other top male skaters. ....
But since YOU brought up pecking order: ....

Sydney Rose, for el henry as well as me, your wording came across as implying pecking order.
YOU chose rather odd wording if you did not intend to imply pecking order.

In response to your new question as to whether Raf coaches any other top male skaters: Michal Brezina is one of Raf's skaters.

 

[LRK]

Is this strictly true? A coach has to be registered as a coach, but I did not think they had to be registered as the skater's particular coach. It is common in interstate events here, for example, for a local coach to put a skater on the ice instead of the expense of that skater's coach travelling.

At Ondrej Nepela Alexander Smirnov put Sergei Voronov on the ice, and he isn't his coach. Also, on other occasions, when the skater's ordinary coach isn't in attendance, some other coach has stepped in. (I remember this happening on several occasions, but my memory won't pinpoint exact occasions. I recall Inna Goncharenko not being able to be with Elena for one occasion at least, and someone else - was it Dmitriev? - put her on the ice. There have been other cases, surely.)

 

[apgold]

At Ondrej Nepela Alexander Smirnov put Sergei Voronov on the ice, and he isn't his coach. Also, on other occasions, when the skater's ordinary coach isn't in attendance, some other coach has stepped in. (I remember this happening on several occasions, but my memory won't pinpoint exact occasions. I recall Inna Goncharenko not being able to be with Elena for one occasion at least, and someone else - was it Dmitriev? - put her on the ice. There have been other cases, surely.)

Didn't Max Aaron sit with Mirai at some competition last year since TomZ couldn't make it?

If Nathan really isn't with Raf anymore, I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days. From what I've seen at Finlandia, Nathan seemed pretty happy training with Marina and skating alongside Patrick.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Didn't Max Aaron sit with Mirai at some competition last year since TomZ couldn't make it?

If Nathan really isn't with Raf anymore, I'm sure we'll hear more in the coming days. From what I've seen at Finlandia, Nathan seemed pretty happy training with Marina and skating alongside Patrick.

This could only happen if Max is an actual coach. He would need to be registered as a coach with USFS and the PSA, and have proper liability insurance in order to put someone on the ice. USFS is very strict about this, even at test sessions.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Is there a difference between "put them on the ice" and "sit in the kiss and cry" maybe?

Was Michelle Kwan's dad registered as a coach when he was in the Kiss and Cry with her or were the rules different?

Also I know the John Coughlin sat in the K&C at US Classic a couple years back with a skater who was their coachless. It was literately just that he did not like seeing a skater not have someone in the K&C so he sat with the guy. I don't know if he is a registered coach.

Also we have seen Josh Farris with skaters at the K&C on regionals... so Max could be just as qualified I would think.

 

[gkelly]

Was Michelle Kwan's dad registered as a coach when he was in the Kiss and Cry with her or were the rules different?

Rules were different then.

Also, the rules within the US, or Canada or other federations, are different from ISU rules. So what might be allowed at an international competition might not be allowed at US Nationals or regionals, or vice versa.

Also we have seen Josh Farris with skaters at the K&C on regionals... so Max could be just as qualified I would think.

To coach at US regionals, a coach needs to have gone through the "Greenlighting" process, with different requirements depending on the level of coaching. Max may have done the process, or he might not have if he's not coaching any skaters at qualifying levels (or at all).

Under the current US domestic rules, a coach needs to be certified for the whole season through a fairly involved process -- it's not something a skater could just decide the same week they want coach credentials at a US qualifying competition.

I'm not familiar with ISU rules on the subject, so I can't speak to what's allowed or possible at international events.

 

[ice coverage]

Didn't Max Aaron sit with Mirai at some competition last year since TomZ couldn't make it? ...

apgold, your memory is accurate -- or very nearly so.

At 2015 US Collegiates in Pittsburgh:

Alex Johnson put Mirai on the ice and sat with her in the Kiss and Cry.

https://www.instagram.com/p/6KpWYDG35H/ (from Mirai and Max's takeover of the USFS Instagram account)​

Max served as Angela Wang's coach and sat with her in the Kiss and Cry.

https://www.instagram.com/p/6H_9-gQc34/​

I am no expert, but I got the impression that it was a standard or almost-standard thing for coaches not to travel to Collegiates???​

... Also I know the John Coughlin sat in the K&C at US Classic a couple years back with a skater who was their coachless. It was literately just that he did not like seeing a skater not have someone in the K&C so he sat with the guy. I don't know if he is a registered coach.

Yes, the compassionate Coughlin stepped up at the 2014 SLC Classic (ISU Challenger comp) to sit in the FS Kiss and Cry with a men's skater from Mexico.
I am not sure, but I think Coughlin also put the young man on the ice for the FS -- after noticing that the skater had been alone for his SP.
In that case, I believe Coughlin was a registered coach for one or more US pairs at the comp. But Coughlin was not officially the Mexican skater's coach.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...ting-Questions&p=988788&viewfull=1#post988788
​

 

[Mrs. P]

State of the U.S. Men leading up to the GP

I calculated the scores of the U.S. men up to now, and it's time to give some numbers and see where the men stand leading up to Skate America.

I have included on highest scores since there isn't enough events to make average figures effective. I will also note if any of the figures fall on the ISU Season's Best list. I have also only made a distinction of competition beyond the results if the person did more than one event.

For the ranking averages, I have ranked everyone (15 senior men) and then average their rankings in each category: Overall, SP, SP TES, SP PCS, FS, FS TES, FS PCS.

So a few observations.
Battle of former U.S. Junior champs: Incidentally, the top 5 men as far as results, rankings and overall scores happen to be all be former U.S. Junior champs: Chen (2012, 2014), Zhou (2013), Aaron (2011), Brown (2010), Rippon (2008). Ross Miner (2009), Andrew Torgashev (2015) Tomoki Hiwatashi (2016) are also Jr. Champs.

Jason Brown benefited from doing several comps, including TCC and back-to-back Senior B's: Any momentum he lost from being injured last season is just about gone. He is back in the top 10 in World Standing and he has the highest PCS at the moment.

Artistry vs. Technical is the wrong question. Better question: +GOE/Steps/PCS and spins vs. Quads: Jason Brown and Nathan Chen have nearly the same ISU Season's Best score overall. Nathan Chen got it by doing 7 quads. Jason Brown got it by maxing up his spins/steps and getting good GOE on everything other than the quad. The question is, will Jason Brown get his quad before Nathan Chen hits his 7 quads cleanly while getting his spin levels? In any case, we might be seeing our world team...

Not if Adam Rippon or Max Aaron have anything to say about it...: Adam had a solid SP, not so solid FS. Max Aaron has a solid FS to The Lion King, but struggles in the SP at both events. Both have the potential to score higher.

Junior spoilers! Zhou and Torgashev were impressive at their first JGP events hitting quads. However they were far less impressive in the free skate of their second events costing them berths to the JGPF. Still, these two, along with Nathan Chen could spoil the status quo.

Lots of quad attempts Nine out of the top 10 men attempted quads.

Skate America up next!
--- see below for results, rankings and scores----
U.S. Challenge/ JGP Results (Senior-level domestic competitors)
Jason Brown: Lombardia Trophy (2nd); U.S. International Classic (1st)
Nathan Chen: Finlandia Trophy (1st)
Adam Rippon: U.S. International Classic (2nd)
Vincent Zhou: JGP Yokohama (2nd); JGP Tallinn Cup (Estonia) (3rd)
Max Aaron: Lombardia Trophy (3rd) Skate Canada Autumn Classic (3rd)
---
Andrew Torgashev: JGP Cup of Mordovia (Russia)(2nd); JGP Pokal d. Baluen Schwerter (Germany) (5th)
Grant Hochstein: Lombardia Trophy (5th); Nebelhorn Trophy (3rd)
Tomoki Hiwatashi: JGP St. Gervais (6th)
Ross Miner: U.S. International Classic (6th)
Alexander Johnson: Ondrej Nepala Trophy (6th)
Sean Rabbit U.S. International Classic (7th)
---
Kevin Shum: JGP Czech Skate (7th)
Timothy Dolensky: Nebelhorn Trophy (8th)
Oleksiy Melynk: JGP St. Gervais (France) (9th)
Emmanuel Savary: JGP Yokohama (Japan) (12th)

Average rankings
Ranking averages
Brown 1.86
Rippon 2.29
Chen 2.57
Aaron 5.14
Zhou 5.57
--
Hochstein 6.00
Miner 7.57
Rabbit 8.00
Torgashev 8.43
Dolensky 9.29 (tie)
Johnson 9.29 (tie)
--
Shum 12.71
Hiwatashi 13.00
Savary 13.57
Melnyk 14.57

Scores

Overall:
1. Jason Brown 256.49 (Lombardia Trophy; ISU SB #3)
2. Nathan Chen 256.44 (Finlandia Trophy; ISU SB #4)
3. Adam Rippon 248.24 (U.S. International Classic; ISU SB #7)
4. Vincent Zhou 226.39 (JGP Yokohama)
5. Max Aaron 226.13 (Skate Canada Autumn Classic)
---
6. Grant Hochstein 217.25 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
7. Ross Miner 214.48 (U.S. International Classic)
8. Sean Rabbit. 209.66 (U.S. International Classic)
9. Alexander Johnson 208.64 (Ondrej Nepela Memorial)
10. Timothy Dolensky 207.49 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
--
11. Andrew Torgashev 204.91 (JGP Pokal d. Baluen Schwerter (Germany))
12. Tomoki Hiwatashi 180.64 (JGP St. Gervais)
13. Kevin Shum 178.92 (JGP Czech Skate)
14. Oleksiy Melynk 165.81 (JGP St. Gervais)
15. Emmaneul Savary 160.63 (JGP Yokohama)

Short Program:
1. Rippon 87.86 (U.S. International Classic ISU SB #3)
2. Chen 87.50 (Finlandia Trophy ISU SB #4)
3. Brown 83.18 (U.S. International Classic ISU #7)
4. Zhou 80.53 (JGP Yokohama #9)
5. Hochstein 75.00 (Nebelhorn Trophy)
--
6. Torgashav 73.48 (JGP Germany)
7. Aaron 72.93 (Lombardia Trophy)
8. Rabbit 72.45 (U.S. International Classic)
9. Johnson 71.41 (Ondrej Nepela Memorial)
10. Miner 71.37 (U.S. International Classic)
--
11. Dolensky 67.76 (Nebelhorn)
12. Savary 61.44
13. Shum 59.49
14. Hiwatashi 57.90 (JGP St. Gervais)
15. Melynk 54.49

SP TES
1. Chen 50.75 (Finlandia)
2. Rippon 45.76 (U.S. Classic)
3. Zhou 44.60 (JGP Yokohama)
4. Brown 42.08 (U.S. Classic)
5. Hochstein 38.75 (Nebelhorn)
--
6. Torgashev 37.83 (JGP Germany)
7. Aaron 36.53 (Lombardia)
8. Johnson 36.51 (Nepala)
9. Rabbit 35.00 (U.S. Classic)
10. Dolensky 34.00 (Nebelhorn)
--
11. Savary 32.96 (Yokohama)
12. Miner 32.67 (U.S. Classic)
13. Shum 30.21 (Czech Skate)
14. Hiwatashi 29.25 (St. Gervais)
15. Melynk 28.57 (St. Gervais)

SP PCS
Brown 42.10 (U.S. Classic)
Rippon 42.10 (U.S. Classic)
Miner 38.70 (U.S. Classic)
Chen 37.75 (Finlandia)
Rabbit 37.25 (U.S. Classic)
--
Hochstein 37.25
Aaron 37.05 (Autumn Classic)
Zhou 36.00 (JGP Estonia)
Dolensky 35.71 (Nebelhorn)
Torgashev 35.65 (JGP Germany
--
Johnson 34.90 (Nepela)
Shum 31.28
Savary 30.68
Hiwatashi 29.65
Melynk 28.57

Free Skate
Brown 174.91 (Lombardia; ISU SB. No. 1)
Chen 168.94 (ISU SB. No. 5)
Rippon 160.38 (ISU SB. No. 8)
Aaron 155.39 (Autumn Classic)
Zhou 145.57 (JGP Japan)
--
Miner 143.11
Hochstein 142.25 (Nebelhorn)
Dolensky 139.73
Torgashev 139.44 (JGP Russia)
Johnson 137.23
--
Rabbit 137.21
Hiwatashi 123.04
Shum 119.43
Melnyk 111.32
Savary 98.89

FS TES
Chen 96.08
Brown 88.01 (Lombardia)
Aaron 78.19
Rippon 77.58
Zhou 75.52 (JGP Japan)
--
Torgashev 72.50 (JGP Russia)
Miner 69.91
Dolensky 69.75 (Nebelhorn)
Hochstein 67.81 (Nebelhorn)
Rabbit 64.41
--
Johnson 63.63
Hiwatashi 62.76
Shum 57.59
Melnyk 56.75
Savary 45.61

FS PCS
Brown 87.00 (Lombardia)
Rippon 82.80
Aaron 78.20 (Autumn Classic)
Hochtein 75.44 (Nebelhorn)
Rabbit 75.10
--
Chen 74.86
Johnson 74.60
Miner 73.20
Dolensky 71.98
Zhou 70.64 (JGP Estonia)
--
Torgashev 68.20 (JGP Germany)
Shum 61.84 (JGP Czech Skate)
Hiwatashi 60.28
Savary 58.28
Melnyk 54.58

 

[qwerty]

This might be premature, but I feel like Jason and Adam have established themselves as frontrunners after Skate America. I'm very excited to see how Nathan Chen scores at his Grand Prix, because I think he will also be one of the top men at Nationals this year.

It makes it even more frustrating that we only have 2 spots this year, because one or more of the above mentioned, plus skaters like Max Aaron, will have to stay home, which is a real shame.

If I had to put money on it today, I would say the World team will be Jason and Nathan. I think much will rest on the success of a quad for both Jason and Adam. For Nathan, it's a matter of staying healthy.

 

[HanDomi]

I guess Nathan will be REALLY determined to win nationals. But the question is if he can actually stay injury free till nationals with 7 quads over 2 programs

 

[Mrs. P]

NHK will be really interesting with Jason and Nathan there. It's also the last GP event, so that will really give a sense of the state of things.

 

[Tavi...]

I guess Nathan will be REALLY determined to win nationals. But the question is if he can actually stay injury free till nationals with 7 quads over 2 programs

Nathan was in the arena for the men's FS yesterday, and as super-competitive as he appears to be, I have no doubt he was mentally taking notes on what he needs to do to win Nats.

Max and Nathan go against Shoma and Javi in Russia, Nathan and Adam will face off against each other and Javi in France, Max goes against Patrick and Boyang in China, and Jason and Nathan go head to head with each other and Hanyu in Japan.

Really excited for Skate Canada next week, where we'll see Patrick, Hanyu, Ross and Grant, and a host of other possible contenders like Mura and Reynolds.

It should be a very interesting GP! And I think it will give us a lot of information heading into Nationals.

 

[zebobes]

NHK will be really interesting with Jason and Nathan there. It's also the last GP event, so that will really give a sense of the state of things.

Not only that, but Trophee France will also be really interesting because Adam and Nathan will be there, so we can see how they fare against each other.

 

[charmblade]

This weekend shows that Nationals is going to be a brutal fight for those two spots. Adam and Jason are ready to go, and I can't wait to see what Nathan and Max have to say in answer to that.

 

[apgold]

This weekend shows that Nationals is going to be a brutal fight for those two spots. Adam and Jason are ready to go, and I can't wait to see what Nathan and Max have to say in answer to that.

The battle for those 2 spots will be fierce for sure. If all stay healthy thru January, I think it will be Jason and Nathan battling it out for the title. Adam is a strong contender but not without landing a quad or two. Max is great when he's on, but he can be hit or miss and still struggles with PCS, despite making some strides recently.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I guess Nathan will be REALLY determined to win nationals. But the question is if he can actually stay injury free till nationals with 7 quads over 2 programs

That simply blows my mind that a skater would do so many quads when, 10 years ago, the Olympic champion did none.

 

[karne]

Max is great when he's on, but he can be hit or miss and still struggles with PCS, despite making some strides recently.

It will be interesting to see the double standard in play at US Nationals, no doubt.

That simply blows my mind that a skater would do so many quads when, 10 years ago, the Olympic champion did none.

10 years ago? 2016 - 10 = 2006, where Evgeni Plushenko won the Olympic title with quads.

 

[musicfan80]

As long the U.S. can get two guys to Worlds who can do well enough to earn three spots, I don't care who they are. We'll see what happens these next three months until Nationals.