2017-18 State of U.S. Ladies Skating

[Seren]

Is this a failure of coaches or the USFA not properly supporting skaters' progress? Something is lacking, compared to the top Russian ladies. Or is it a matter of age - older skaters have a harder time keeping up with younger skaters? Listening to the teleconference with Lapinski on IN, ladies in general have not progressed in the past 10+ years until Russians like Med. and Zag. came along.
Of course, the ice is slippery and you never know who might crash and burn under the pressure of the Olympics. Wagner has been before and knows the pressure. Med. and Zag. have not. That also might be a factor in choice of ladies who go from the US - who has more international experience and has been in the top few more than others.

United States Figure Skating has done some proactive things in recent years- they added bonuses at lower levels for more difficult elements and decreased the penalty for falls on harder elements, all with the goal of encouraging development of skaters at these levels. I think we are starting to see the result of this- look at the scores for the intermediate ladies that finished yesterday- there are clean triple lutzes in Intermediate and clean double axels in Juvenile.

We will really know how these programs worked when the skaters who were at those levels when the program started get to Seniors. But it is promising. USFS isn't just sitting around doing nothing.

 

[eriecold]

Is this a failure of coaches or the USFA not properly supporting skaters' progress? Something is lacking, compared to the top Russian ladies. Or is it a matter of age - older skaters have a harder time keeping up with younger skaters? Listening to the teleconference with Lapinski on IN, ladies in general have not progressed in the past 10+ years until Russians like Med. and Zag. came along.
Of course, the ice is slippery and you never know who might crash and burn under the pressure of the Olympics. Wagner has been before and knows the pressure. Med. and Zag. have not. That also might be a factor in choice of ladies who go from the US - who has more international experience and has been in the top few more than others.

I don't think it's any of this. No country can be top of the notch in every discipline. Russia was never the winner in single ladies, now that it's a powerhouse, their dance teams are nowhere to be found and the men singles has declined as well.

US was never an ice dance contender and now they have 3 teams in the top 5. Russia didn't get this amount of girls competing overnight, they started building momentum about 10 years ago, when US ladies still dominated the field (and were just about to lose it for good).

 

[brightphoton]

She was actually born in Russia to Russian parents who came to the US to coach here. And she did skate for Russia--even went to the Olympics. But her career was very short---she could skate a great SP, but was prone to URs in the FS. I'm in San Jose now and don't have access to all my files so I can't provide in depth details.

I'm on mobile so it's also hard to research, but at the time, iirc, the US was very strong domestically and Ksenia didn't have much chance to compete for Team USA. US had swept the junior worlds podium with the Mirai Nagasu, Caroline Zhang, and Rachael Flatt trio. In the mix was a late career bloomer Alissa Cyzny and a then non-competitive Ashley Wagner. All of them were getting 2 GP spots, which didn't leave much room for Ksenia.

I didn't remember her at the Olympics. Hmm I guess her country switching paid off.

 

[ice coverage]

They r in the practice rink today, even tho “official” practice was supposed to begin tomorrow. I think It was a mix up in the schedule, or the non updated version u saw online.

AshWagsFan, are you talking about unofficial practice today? Was it Rink 2 at Solar4America Ice?

---

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this too early for the seniors start official practices? I was under the impression that once you start official practices you cannot practice anywhere else, so you are stuck with the minimal practice amount? I say this because at a Nationals I attended in Dallas in 2001 I think, once the skaters started official practices they couldn't just go rent ice for a few hours somewhere in town to keep the mojo. So most started their official practices around Tuesday or Wednesday? I could be totally misremembering. Maybe it was once the SP began you couldn't be at another rink, and I think someone got into trouble for that. Can anyone clarify? TIA

Anecdotally, FWIW:

At Skate America in Lake Placid, official practices began on Thursday (Thanksgiving Day) in the 1980 Rink (competition rink).

On Wednesday, unofficial practice (not announced [AFAIK] in any way to fans, and not shown on the up-to-date color-coded schedule) was taking place in the 1932 Rink at the other end of the building.

I happened to be randomly walking past the 1932 Rink on Wednesday, glanced through the windows of the doors, and realized that Savchenko/Massot were practicing. So on the spur of the moment, I went in to watch. After S/B ... Nathan, Bradie, and the Parsons were among those who practiced (only slight overlap among them). I forget who else.
Based on a comment I overheard from someone working with Nathan, I got the impression that Nathan had not yet checked in at official accreditation. (No idea one way or the other about the other skaters.)
Unlike at official practice, skaters (and/or coaches) were on their own to start/stop/replay program music as they wished (I'm guessing much the same as at home rinks?). At unofficial practice, there was no one taking care of playing music for the skaters. And no practice announcer.

During the two hours or so that I watched unofficial practice, there were very few other spectators (maybe half a dozen?) watching at any length.
Some fans who stopped in rather briefly seemed to have stumbled upon the unofficial practice as passers-by, just like me.​

 

[stella luna]

They r in the practice rink today, even tho “official” practice was supposed to begin tomorrow. I think It was a mix up in the schedule, or the non updated version u saw online.

So some of the skaters are practicing on New Year's Eve, wow. Celebrating Christmas and New Year's in a healthy manner right before a major competition has to be tough for the top skaters. That would be a good question: How do you celebrate the holidays without going off your training regime?

 

[concorde]

Is this a failure of coaches or the USFA not properly supporting skaters' progress? Something is lacking, compared to the top Russian ladies. Or is it a matter of age - older skaters have a harder time keeping up with younger skaters? Listening to the teleconference with Lapinski on IN, ladies in general have not progressed in the past 10+ years until Russians like Med. and Zag. came along.

Couple of huge difference between the US and Russia. #1 in Russia, the State funds the top skaters. In the US, the family provides the funding. #2 In Russia, ice skating is accessible to the masses so you have a lot more skaters early on. In the US, family have to seek out ice skating opportunities for their young child.

 

[NAOTMAA]

Before Skate America everybody was debating about who should be placed on the team competition. I don't think its been discussed since but surely if Bradie makes the Olympic team she is close to automatic for it regardless of her lack of seniority, right :think:

If I were the USFSA I would have her do the LP and wouldn't even think twice about it

 

[concorde]

United States Figure Skating has done some proactive things in recent years- they added bonuses at lower levels for more difficult elements and decreased the penalty for falls on harder elements, all with the goal of encouraging development of skaters at these levels. I think we are starting to see the result of this- look at the scores for the intermediate ladies that finished yesterday- there are clean triple lutzes in Intermediate and clean double axels in Juvenile.

We will really know how these programs worked when the skaters who were at those levels when the program started get to Seniors. But it is promising. USFS isn't just sitting around doing nothing.

If a skater moved up a level each year, the first class of skaters to have benefited under this system are Novices.

 

[chuckm]

Couple of huge difference between the US and Russia. #1 in Russia, the State funds the top skaters. In the US, the family provides the funding. #2 In Russia, ice skating is accessible to the masses so you have a lot more skaters early on. In the US, family have to seek out ice skating opportunities for their young child.

In Russia, the State also takes most of the prize money the skater earns, so it gives with one hand and takes with the other.
In Russia, there are quite a few families with money that can send their children to good coaches. But they won't get far if they don't have the talent, just like in the US. Yes, if a beginning skater with talent but no family resources is noticed by a coach, arrangements can be made to fund that skater's training. But that can put tremendous pressure on the child, whose family becomes dependent on the child for the future earnings the child may make. Failure can be devastating, and in some cases failure is inevitable when the puberty bug causes disruptive growth and funding ceases.

 

[tars]

In Russia, the State also takes most of the prize money the skater earns, so it gives with one hand and takes with the other.

Could you give source of this? I'm pretty sure it's not true.

 

[concorde]

Hmmm. Do US athletes get taxed on their prize money? Or do they use their training costs to somehow offset it?

 

[schizoanalyst]

Hmmm. Do US athletes get taxed on their prize money? Or do they use their training costs to somehow offset it?

With the proviso that I'm not a tax accountant and I'm perhaps mistaken- my understanding is that prize money is income in the US, therefore it is taxed. If your primary source of income is figure skating you could plausible deduct the costs of training as an expense. US Congress attempted to eliminate this tax for Olympians making less than $1 million/year a few years ago but it never passed.

 

[temadd]

With the proviso that I'm not a tax accountant and I'm perhaps mistaken- my understanding is that prize money is income in the US, therefore it is taxed. If your primary source of income is figure skating you could plausible deduct the costs of training as an expense. US Congress attempted to eliminate this tax for Olympians making less than $1 million/year a few years ago but it never passed.

Yes, prize money is income. I'm a competitive equestrian and we have to claim prize $. If you set it up as a business, as I'm sure many skaters do, you can deduct training, equipment etc.

 

[Weathergal]

People have short memories. Did people forget that after Irina Slutskaya's retirement in the early 2000s to hmm around 2012, there were virtually no top level Russian singles skaters? Tides come and go.

Around the late 2000s to early 2010s, we even had an American skater with Russian ancestry, Ksenia something, who switched countries and skated for Russia, because they were so uncompetitive and she thought she could more likely get international events with them. Didn't happen because she switched just around the rise of Russia and fall off the US, but that was the plan.

She was actually born in Russia to Russian parents who came to the US to coach here. And she did skate for Russia--even went to the Olympics. But her career was very short---she could skate a great SP, but was prone to URs in the FS. I'm in San Jose now and don't have access to all my files so I can't provide in depth details.

I'm on mobile so it's also hard to research, but at the time, iirc, the US was very strong domestically and Ksenia didn't have much chance to compete for Team USA. US had swept the junior worlds podium with the Mirai Nagasu, Caroline Zhang, and Rachael Flatt trio. In the mix was a late career bloomer Alissa Cyzny and a then non-competitive Ashley Wagner. All of them were getting 2 GP spots, which didn't leave much room for Ksenia.

I didn't remember her at the Olympics. Hmm I guess her country switching paid off.

Ksenia Makarova. She actually was fairly successful skating for Russia. She won Russian Nationals the year she placed 10th in the Olympics, and was as high as 4th at Europeans with a few top ten finishes at Worlds.

I remember her being friends with Johnny Weir, as they were training mates.

 

[Bluediamonds09]

From practice videos, it looks like Karen is going to keep UR that lutz-toe combo. I think the tech panel may ignore it, maybe. But international judges won’t, When will she and her team fix this?????!!!????

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Both to be honest, but specifically with the former, sometimes I get the feeling that some are OK with this happening or even encourage(!) doing it as long as their favorite benefits...:disagree:

I don't think it's ok, but it is quite obvious that the US judges overlook certain errors for favorites if they perform well and stay on their feet. It doesn't bother me much because, usually, the women left off the team didn't skate all that well. A lot of talented women like Courtney and Angela don't skate well enough at Nationals give the judges a tough choice, so while other favorites tend to be over marked, it is usually a case in which the placement is right but the margin of victory is exaggerated.

 

[brightphoton]

Ksenia Makarova. She actually was fairly successful skating for Russia. She won Russian Nationals the year she placed 10th in the Olympics, and was as high as 4th at Europeans with a few top ten finishes at Worlds.

Yes, and Ksenia was able to do this for the Russians because she couldn't compete domestically at the level of American skaters. In 2010. It wasn't that long ago, was it?

I find it really odd how after a few years of Russian dominance in ladies, suddenly people say Russians got it all figured out, it's the government money, government funded ice rink, that's why Russians are the best. But remember, 10-20 years ago, Russia had all the same things. Yet, their most successful athlete during that time period was someone who couldn't compete among the US ladies.

Different countries dominate at different times.

 

[TCAngel18]

Ksenia Makarova. She actually was fairly successful skating for Russia. She won Russian Nationals the year she placed 10th in the Olympics, and was as high as 4th at Europeans with a few top ten finishes at Worlds.

I remember her being friends with Johnny Weir, as they were training mates.

Yeah, Ksenia was born in Russia. She is the daughter of Selezneva/Makarov, 1984 Olympic Bronze Medalists in pairs. I think she was maybe 9 or 10 when they all moved to America, for her parents to Coach.

 

[Weathergal]

Yes, and Ksenia was able to do this for the Russians because she couldn't compete domestically at the level of American skaters. In 2010. It wasn't that long ago, was it?

I find it really odd how after a few years of Russian dominance in ladies, suddenly people say Russians got it all figured out, it's the government money, government funded ice rink, that's why Russians are the best. But remember, 10-20 years ago, Russia had all the same things. Yet, their most successful athlete during that time period was someone who couldn't compete among the US ladies.

Different countries dominate at different times.

2010 shouldn't feel like that long ago, right? LOL

I agree in particular with your last sentence. It wasn't that long ago that the Men's program in the U.S. didn't seem all that strong, especially on the technical side. Now there are going to be some worthy competitors who won't make the Olympics. And in Dance, things have changed even more dramatically with the U.S. going from lucky to break the top ten to having a very deep, very talented and successful field.

 

[brightphoton]

2010 shouldn't feel like that long ago, right? LOL

I agree in particular with your last sentence. It wasn't that long ago that the Men's program in the U.S. didn't seem all that strong, especially on the technical side. Now there are going to be some worthy competitors who won't make the Olympics. And in Dance, things have changed even more dramatically with the U.S. going from lucky to break the top ten to having a very deep, very talented and successful field.

It's weird. In 2010, all the men's hopes were pinned on Evan and Johnny, and really not much else. I also remember this was the start of Johnny Weir's Russian obsession. He started hanging with with Sasha Cohen's and Mao Asada's former coach, Tarasova?, wearing Russian jackets, maybe even Team Russia jackets, and learning the Russian language. He also said some good things about Ksenia.
Who knew that he'd be our American commentator 8 years later.

I'm so excited about Nationals. My dual hopes are that our skaters do well, and Tara and Johnny talk over <80% the skaters' performances.