2017-18 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[mrrice]

As I've said in the past, the things with Vincent really don't surprise me all that much, yes I think he's talented but he has a long way to go to mature into the skater he's ultimately going to be. He is definitely 2022 material IMHO. The Fed needs to stop pushing him and let him develop.

I agree....He's fresh out of Juniors and I think the pressure might be getting to him. It's Max that I'm worried about. I still think of him as the US #3. If he were more consistent, I'd put him if front of Adam who is a judges darling due to his beautiful performance skills. I know Jason is also a dream of a skater but, quadless, he has no shot of medaling at Nationals. With is his consistency, he could knock one of the big jumpers off the team if they falter. Here's to both skaters having great long programs......

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I agree....He's fresh out of Juniors and I think the pressure might be getting to him. It's Max that I'm worried about. I still think of him as the US #3. If were more consistent, I'd put him if front of Adam who is a judges darling. I know Jason is also a dream of a skater but, quadless, he has no shot of medaling at Nationals. With is his consistency, he could knock one of the big jumpers off the team if they falter. Here's to both skaters having great long programs......

I'm concerned about Max too, but please stop calling Adam a "judges darling" because he's nothing of the sort. Thanks.

 

[mrrice]

I'm concerned about Max too, but please stop calling Adam a "judges darling" because he's nothing of the sort. Thanks.

I love this comment even though we don't agree. I think Adam is a judges darling because he's been a successful skater for longer than the rest of the US Men. Adam has 2 Junior World Titles and a 4CC Title. He also has one of my favorite Long Program of all time. I love flight of the birds...............To me, he and Jason are the most recognizable skaters "outside" of the US. After Nathan of course.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I love this comment even though we don't agree. I think Adam is a judges darling because he's been a successful skater for longer than the rest of the US Men. Adam has 2 Junior World Titles and a 4CC Title. To me, he and Jason are the most recognizable skaters "outside" of the US. After Nathan of course.

Well I'm going to agree to disagree because it's only been recently that Adam has been recognized for his abilities. YMMV.

 

[karne]

I think more than anything Vincent's inexperience is showing. We know he has the potential to be fabulous. I just think the next quad is going to be his time.

I think it's partially inexperience with Vincent along with a recent growth spurt

Vincent is inexperienced? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I had no idea. I mean after all when everyone was carrying on like pork chops demanding that he be sent to Worlds I didn't think experience would be a problem -

- oh wait. I did. I remember explicitly making that argument that Vincent was inexperienced and that it could all go wrong and the pre-Olympic Worlds was not a place for two Worlds rookies. I remember explicitly reminding people that there is a huge difference between competing internationally as a Junior and internationally as a Senior. And I remember explicitly that there were a significant number of people who said that experience didn't matter (as their argument for sending Vincent over Jason).

And now suddenly experience does matter. Huh. Funny that.

As for Max, he'll be fine. He'll fight his butt off as he always does, and he'll continue to suffer as he always will with no margin for error. Now, I wonder what comes first in this chicken or the egg scenario: does he get dropped like a stone at US Nationals because that's what happens to him internationally, or (more likely) does he get dropped like a stone internationally because it's what happens to him at US Nationals?

 

[musicfan80]

I agree....He's fresh out of Juniors and I think the pressure might be getting to him.

Vincent is inexperienced? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I had no idea. I mean after all when everyone was carrying on like pork chops demanding that he be sent to Worlds I didn't think experience would be a problem -

- oh wait. I did. I remember explicitly making that argument that Vincent was inexperienced and that it could all go wrong and the pre-Olympic Worlds was not a place for two Worlds rookies. I remember explicitly reminding people that there is a huge difference between competing internationally as a Junior and internationally as a Senior.

Other than Yuzuru Hanyu and Shoma Uno, have we ever had a recent men’s junior world champion who had a great or even decent first senior international season? I don’t even think most made it to the Worlds/Olympics that season.

 

[Mrs. P]

Other than Yuzuru Hanyu and Shoma Uno, have we ever had a recent men’s junior world champion who had a great or even decent first senior international season? I don’t even think most made it to the Worlds/Olympics that season.

FWIW, I don't think Yuzu actually made it to Worlds during his first season, IIRC. (Edited: Yep. The 2011 World team was Noburnari Oda, Daisuke Takhashi and Takahiko Kozuka).

For everyone's foibles about Jason's technical content, he did make the Olympic team in his debut senior season internationally. And only with 2 U.S. spots. He wasn't a junior world champ, but close enough since he was a two-time medalist + JGPF champ.

 

[mrrice]

Other than Yuzuru Hanyu and Shoma Uno, have we ever had a recent men’s junior world champion who had a great or even decent first senior international season? I don’t even think most made it to the Worlds/Olympics that season.

Adam Rippon won the 4cc in his first year as a senior after winning the Junior World title in 2009. Here's his Gold Medal 4cc Win:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0bIVfuh3-I

 

[Mathman]

Is Vincent Zhou too young, too inexperienced, and too inconsistent to score well at Nationals and make the Olympic team? I think that the game has changed just in the last year. Zhou, inexperience and all, got second in the LP at Cup of China, ahead of Ferandez, Jin and Kolyada. How? He attempted five quads and only fell once with two URs. Men's figure skating is a new world, Golda.

 

[Seren]

Vincent is inexperienced? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I had no idea. I mean after all when everyone was carrying on like pork chops demanding that he be sent to Worlds I didn't think experience would be a problem -

- oh wait. I did. I remember explicitly making that argument that Vincent was inexperienced and that it could all go wrong and the pre-Olympic Worlds was not a place for two Worlds rookies. I remember explicitly reminding people that there is a huge difference between competing internationally as a Junior and internationally as a Senior. And I remember explicitly that there were a significant number of people who said that experience didn't matter (as their argument for sending Vincent over Jason).

And now suddenly experience does matter. Huh. Funny that.

As for Max, he'll be fine. He'll fight his butt off as he always does, and he'll continue to suffer as he always will with no margin for error. Now, I wonder what comes first in this chicken or the egg scenario: does he get dropped like a stone at US Nationals because that's what happens to him internationally, or (more likely) does he get dropped like a stone internationally because it's what happens to him at US Nationals?

I did not think Vincent should have been sent to Worlds. I was for Jason. So I'm not sure how my comment applies to that?

 

[Mrs. P]

I think his FS comebacks help him still be part of the conversation for one of those spots. But people were putting him as a lock for one of them and his performance during the SPs this season make a case on why he shouldn't be deemed a lock.

 

[sheetz]

Is Vincent Zhou too young, too inexperienced, and too inconsistent to score well at Nationals and make the Olympic team?

It's certainly possible he could pull it all together by Nationals and even finish top 2 so I wouldn't count him out yet, but I think people had hopes that Vincent could become the next Nathan. However, skaters like Nathan just don't come along very often.

 

[Mrs. P]

I'll stick to my "clear as mud" view for those not named Nathan.

 

[TontoK]

I think his FS comebacks help him still be part of the conversation for one of those spots. But people were putting him as a lock for one of them and his performance during the SPs this season make a case on why he shouldn't be deemed a lock.

As someone who has had Vincent on my Early Choice list, I have to agree.

He's got everything he needs but nerve at this point. In both of his GP's he's put himself out of the running with his SP. Without the pressure, he skated very well in the Long in China. We'll see how he does here, but again, it will be a relatively pressure-free skate.

I need to see him skate a good short, and THEN perform a good LP. He's still on my list, but he's wobbly.

 

[skylark]

Vincent is inexperienced? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I had no idea. I mean after all when everyone was carrying on like pork chops demanding that he be sent to Worlds

Everyone was demanding that Vincent be sent to Worlds? I don't remember it that way. It seems to me there was quite a lot of back and forth amongst people who had different views about who might, would or should be sent.

 

[college pat]

i think vincent had every right to be name to world team.

let see u.s took a chance on todd eldredge,
max aaron,
jason brown,
adam rippon when young, even older and 1st time.

so why not vincent.

expectations are high for vincent due to him wining jw not bad in grand prix.

max not impressive though 3 place i thought gifted.

personally i would like to see on going to the olympics

nathan, vincent and max (adam, jason) already been, even another inexperience man at oly.

jason, adam went, -but they been somewhat impressive and unimpressive. however it will be
nathan, and any of the other 4. i just hope vincent goes and nathan.

any man who goes tries the quad in short and long, that does include adam, jason.

 

[mrrice]

After seeing a quadless Misha Ge beat Vincent and Max by 20 points, I have to think that Jason might be on the US team after all. I've always considered Max to be a rock in competition but this was not a good event for him. With these placements, aren't Max and Vincent eliminated from making the GPF?

 

[ramurphy2005]

I wish Max had a better cut of Phantom music, and maybe I'd like his program a little bit better. It doesn't win me over by using Gerald Butler's vocals or ending the program with the same cut that Patrick Chan's Phantom did.

I have similar issues with Max's music cut for the SP, too. I think Max would be better off if his SP was either just One Day More or Bring Him Home, but I'd lean toward it being just One Day More.

Not that my opinions matter because it's way too late in the game for him to change much of anything.

 

[karne]

i think vincent had every right to be name to world team.

Nope. He didn't have the scores. And it was most important for the three spots to be got back. The USFS made the safe choice and history has vindicated them.

max not impressive though 3 place i thought gifted.

What?

nathan, vincent and max (adam, jason) already been, even another inexperience man at oly.

jason, adam went,

Adam has never been to the Olympics.

And Vincent can go if he EARNS it. Right now, he's not earning it.

With these placements, aren't Max and Vincent eliminated from making the GPF?

Vincent was already highly unlikely, but yes, Max is now out too.

I have similar issues with Max's music cut for the SP, too. I think Max would be better off if his SP was either just One Day More or Bring Him Home, but I'd lean toward it being just One Day More.

I like the cut together in the SP. It feels like a metaphor for this season for him. Bring Him Home - quiet, sad, is this the last time? Giving himself in exchange for the dream that he wants so badly. And then the raucous One Day More - Max will fight on, he will fight, he will keep fighting, one day more! And if it is the last day he will fight on - one day more!

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

i think vincent had every right to be name to world team.

let see u.s took a chance on todd eldredge,
max aaron,
jason brown,
adam rippon when young, even older and 1st time.

so why not vincent.

expectations are high for vincent due to him wining jw not bad in grand prix.

max not impressive though 3 place i thought gifted.

personally i would like to see on going to the olympics

nathan, vincent and max (adam, jason) already been, even another inexperience man at oly.

jason, adam went, -but they been somewhat impressive and unimpressive. however it will be
nathan, and any of the other 4. i just hope vincent goes and nathan.

any man who goes tries the quad in short and long, that does include adam, jason.

Adam has never been to the Olympics. 2010 Men's team was Jeremy Abbott, Evan Lysacek, and Johnny Weir. 2014 was Jeremy Abbott and Jason Brown.