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- Aug 18, 2017
2018 Olympic Season: Ice Dance
- Thread starter GS Forum Staff
- Start date
I just don't think Virtue and Moir are artists. It's just an opinion...
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- Aug 18, 2017
A flawed opinion. in terms of artisry, technical and performance wise its V/M>>>>P/c. P/C are
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- Feb 16, 2014
I may be misunderstanding you here, so please do excuse me.
V/M did not beat P/C for the FD at Worlds. They scored 116 to P/C's 119. Considering the 10's (given by one judge) would have been thrown out, as that's what's done to the lowest and highest scores.
V/M were around 5.5 points ahead in the SD at Worlds. P/C would have needed 2.5 pts more in the SD to beat V/M overall.
Yes, I do think V/M are going to score higher than 119 pts this season. Look at their SCI scores. They scored 117 this season already with L3s on both step sequences. That's nearly 4 pts lower than what they would have scored had they skated clean. If they improve, why shouldn't they score above 119?
Both teams are being set up for massive scores by the time we get to the Olys.
I keep hearing that P/C are apparantly better artists. I'm not yet clear on what makes them so.
I don't agree. I don't think Virtue and Moir are artists. There's no need for me to draw a comparison with any other team. It's an opinion that just can be reached just by the observation of Virtue and Moir. They aren't artists....
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- Apr 5, 2016
If I had my way almost no one would get 10s.
I mean few reach perfection in figure skating anyways, what's the point? Now if you're a judge awarding 10s because 'damn this style floats my boat' then yeah, we've got no one to stop you. The discussion of who's an artist and who's not is a moot point when it comes to levels. You can have & do all the things right technically and get your levels and even some GOEs without having an "artistic" program. You'll get dinged in PCS because you don't satisfy the judges' appetite for the style du jour/you're boring but they can't fault you for getting your tech in.
Anyasnake which Russian team do you see breaking through? Loboda/Drozd? Shpilevaya/Smirnov? Stepanova/Bukin? Though I feel you're going to say 'anyone but SinKat'.
Anyasnake which Russian team do you see breaking through? Loboda/Drozd? Shpilevaya/Smirnov? Stepanova/Bukin? Though I feel you're going to say 'anyone but SinKat'.
Definitely Step/Bukin. They have the goods to work with. There are things to adjust of course but it's here. For example they are really fast and can generate flow, good basic SS, yet their Rumba pattern at Finlandia and CoR was (really) bad.
I loved their Eleanor Rigsby program in 2014-2015. When they came 3rd at Euros that year, I thought we would have a French/Russian domination coming (Since they were 1 and 2 in juniors during the 2012-2013 season). But they have "failed" to evolve in that direction. For now.
Not SinKat no
You can be the best skater on the planet, a crappy behaviour will get you nowhere.
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- Feb 22, 2016
S/B were beating P/C in the past ... hard to believe now. I think that that this move to Montreal was crucial. S/B did not have opportunities or will to train abroad afaik.
They must get that will! No way won’t there be open spots next year- if that’s a real problem. They must move to dubreuil!
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- Apr 5, 2016
Definitely Step/Bukin. They have the goods to work with. There are things to adjust of course but it's here. For example they are really fast and can generate flow, good basic SS, yet their Rumba pattern at Finlandia and CoR was (really) bad.
I loved their Eleanor Rigsby program in 2014-2015. When they came 3rd at Euros that year, I thought we would have a French/Russian domination coming (Since they were 1 and 2 in juniors during the 2012-2013 season). But they have "failed" to evolve in that direction. For now.
Not SinKat no
I like your enthusiasm for Stepanova/Bukin. They were really amazing to see in juniors. I actually quite enjoy Russian junior ice dance. Such a variety of teams and styles that there's something for everyone. It'll be interesting to see who breaks through when they go senior.
I myself am not sure about who'll be going for silver & bronze in 2022 but I have to say I wouldn't be surprised to see two American teams on the podium. The new crop with the Parsons & C/P is looking just a bit too strong to be kept far back of the podium.
They are, but not in the French sense you know.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
Nope, I don't know.
It is just your opinion, which is worth no more than mine.
Agree to disagree. #NotBickering
Good luck to Tessa and Scott at NHK :yay:.
Program conception. Looking back on V/M's career their choices in their programs tell you that they are tremendous entertainers, like Beyonce and Co. wowing people with tricks and glamour. They can be very moving, as their 2008 FD showed, but it's all very accessible and unfolds on a single emotional plane.
The French's music choice for their last season's FD, for instance, was highly unique and challenging, yet seamlessly blended together and they managed to move people to tears with an essentially Abstract program. They engage one's emotions but also the intellect, and in the end transcend it all.
This season's FD for instance, their opening movements, you can't really say they have any specific meaning, yet one's intrigued and absorbed nonetheless, both by the suppleness and the enigmatic, ineffable quality of pure movement in space-time.
Look at V/M's FD opening, you could see they are in the character and committed 110%, and that's very impressive. But it's the former kind of art that will stand the test of time.
No I'm not expressing an opinion, as in the aesthetic judgement is temporarily suspended.
I'm only taking about the difference in how the French conceive and practice art, and treat their artists (and how they are viewed by the rest of the world) in the modern western world. A lot of North American artists in the 20th Century went to France, Paris in particular, to live and make art, precisely because of that difference.
That's a valuable cultural heritage and very unique to France. It certainly informs people's sensibilities, to different degrees.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2012
But you seem to be claiming that any individuals who are not French (or who have not pursued their artistic careers in France) are inherently inferior as artists -- compared to any individuals who are French (or who have pursued their artistic careers in France).
And that would be a subjective opinion.
And an opinion that I oppose.
In my opinion, and only mine :
Before 2016, I did saw Tessa & Scott as artists. I'm not talking about the technique because I believe they are "artist" in this field. I'm talking about programs, taste, dance, body movement, expression and digging deep into emotions that you may not understand in the first, understanding of a concept sometimes out of the box, and so on. I just believed that with Marina, they never got to push themselves as far as I wanted them to. Carmen never went where I wanted them to go.
So when I heard that they were coming back, I was just thrilled in an artistic point of view, I almost thought we would got to see them do something like the French FD last year.
They did exceed my expectations for the SDs. I never got the greatest artistic feeling when talking about SD because it's too busy and packed. But they offered us the greatest entertainment last year, that Prince SD goes in the books.
But I was so disappointed with the FD choice (Latch). I thought "okay they will offer us somethig different I'm waiting". I just believe that the music (the Latch part) was not good enough. I didn't necessarily wanted to see romantic Tessa&Scott again, or at least in a different way. At least I was happy with the skating.
And I might get the same feeling about Moulin Rouge, because it's overused (Marie-France did not agree with this choice at first) and every girl in my rinked used it at the time. I do think that they believe in it so much that it will do them good, and it's by far the best MR I've seen, I want to see more of that. I'm waiting for this weekend in NHK.
What I mean is that I don't see them at the artists everyone claim they are (including me who thought that before), but I see them as entertainers. It's big, sharp, programs are explosive, it's an absolut joy for the spectator.
But in total honesty, it's almost like there is a lack of research. I wanted it to go so much deeper (and YES I think they can). But I'm still waiting for them to suprise me.
I can't believe I'm quoting Johnny Weir, but in 2016 GPF he said : the difference between P/C and V/M is that P/C's art could come across as "snob", you have to understand it, it's not necessarily easy, while V/M are the people's skaters. Hence my distinction.
For me (once again, MY opinon) : I see the French more as artist because they're exploiting their style 100%, which is all about creating emotions, moments, whatever the background music may be. The music is only here to highlight or to add to the movements and the emotions. They push their own boundaries in terms of dance, and just like Marie-France, they are all about the details and that's why they do so well with her choreography. The downside is that they have to skate almost 100% clean everytime, because with their FD last year, you could see how mistake affected the general impression of it, because it was very outside the box.
That's why I don't necessarily want to see them do egyptian, Irish, or Anna Karenina.
There is absolutely NO inferiority or superiority about one or the other, just the perception of it. And that's where the subjective part comes in.
(And it's not about being French for sure, but it's fair to say that the cultural education we receive very early helps a lot. There is even a mandatory test/Research project when you're ~14/15 yo, about Art History. Just like there is ballet dance culture in Russia. We are being taught the huge impact of Art and the subtility of it, "so that you see what another one won't".
It's Cannes versus Hollywood. But I digress, sorry
)
Before 2016, I did saw Tessa & Scott as artists. I'm not talking about the technique because I believe they are "artist" in this field. I'm talking about programs, taste, dance, body movement, expression and digging deep into emotions that you may not understand in the first, understanding of a concept sometimes out of the box, and so on. I just believed that with Marina, they never got to push themselves as far as I wanted them to. Carmen never went where I wanted them to go.
So when I heard that they were coming back, I was just thrilled in an artistic point of view, I almost thought we would got to see them do something like the French FD last year.
They did exceed my expectations for the SDs. I never got the greatest artistic feeling when talking about SD because it's too busy and packed. But they offered us the greatest entertainment last year, that Prince SD goes in the books.
But I was so disappointed with the FD choice (Latch). I thought "okay they will offer us somethig different I'm waiting". I just believe that the music (the Latch part) was not good enough. I didn't necessarily wanted to see romantic Tessa&Scott again, or at least in a different way. At least I was happy with the skating.
And I might get the same feeling about Moulin Rouge, because it's overused (Marie-France did not agree with this choice at first) and every girl in my rinked used it at the time. I do think that they believe in it so much that it will do them good, and it's by far the best MR I've seen, I want to see more of that. I'm waiting for this weekend in NHK.
What I mean is that I don't see them at the artists everyone claim they are (including me who thought that before), but I see them as entertainers. It's big, sharp, programs are explosive, it's an absolut joy for the spectator.
But in total honesty, it's almost like there is a lack of research. I wanted it to go so much deeper (and YES I think they can). But I'm still waiting for them to suprise me.
I can't believe I'm quoting Johnny Weir, but in 2016 GPF he said : the difference between P/C and V/M is that P/C's art could come across as "snob", you have to understand it, it's not necessarily easy, while V/M are the people's skaters. Hence my distinction.
For me (once again, MY opinon) : I see the French more as artist because they're exploiting their style 100%, which is all about creating emotions, moments, whatever the background music may be. The music is only here to highlight or to add to the movements and the emotions. They push their own boundaries in terms of dance, and just like Marie-France, they are all about the details and that's why they do so well with her choreography. The downside is that they have to skate almost 100% clean everytime, because with their FD last year, you could see how mistake affected the general impression of it, because it was very outside the box.
That's why I don't necessarily want to see them do egyptian, Irish, or Anna Karenina.
There is absolutely NO inferiority or superiority about one or the other, just the perception of it. And that's where the subjective part comes in.
(And it's not about being French for sure, but it's fair to say that the cultural education we receive very early helps a lot. There is even a mandatory test/Research project when you're ~14/15 yo, about Art History. Just like there is ballet dance culture in Russia. We are being taught the huge impact of Art and the subtility of it, "so that you see what another one won't".
It's Cannes versus Hollywood. But I digress, sorry
)
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2015
^^ we could have a very long conversation about artistry... i can say I disagree with some of the things you write, and I agree with some of the others 
the only thing I will say, and this is in my opinion and of course many will disagree and that's fine:
when P/C came into the spotlight, I was truly enchanted with their Mozart... didn't like their SD at all... wasn't pleased about the overall result as I saw them on the second or third step of the podium... BUT I LOVED their style and their FD. I was perfectly fine after a few weeks with the idea of P/C as world champions, young skaters with already a very precise style.
Since then, they have failed to impress me year after year. Why? I don't see progress in that style... I see it repeated over and over with less and less originality.
On top of that, the SDs are often their weak point because if they glide so beautifully on ice, and even if I am sure they are great off-ice dancers, the styles don't always translate on the ice... especially this year for me: I don't see latin dance from them... (well they are not the only ones but... i was hoping for better).
In the end, to me an artist is someone who can bring me all kinds of different emotions... and I feel that there is only one main kind of emotion I feel when watching P/C... it's a very great feeling but I like variety..
I am not a fan of Moulin Rouge either...
I saw Latch and Moulin Rouge live... I had goose bumps for the first one.. nothing for MR... though, it's improving already.
I don't want to appear as I am not being fair here as I know V/M have a lot of work to do to convince me this year... but I think that Moonlight sonata misses the mark in the second part of it... as beautiful as it is at the beginning, it's a failure of a concept when the faster section comes in... so to me, the program not only has awful music cuts, but makes no sense... and that's a huge issue...
this being said, i thin it's amazing what such young ice dancers can achieve already. I am happy to hear they intend to continue for another quad. I simply hope that they will go somewhere in their style exploration... not deeper.. somewhere else. I am getting slightly bored and I do think that's why VM are going after things they haven't done... even if MR can seem tacky, and it is, I think they are pushing themselves with something they love but haven't done...
in any case, it's going to be a huge battle... and let's hope it's not decided by a freak accident or a corrupted panel... (olympics... never safe from weird judges)
the only thing I will say, and this is in my opinion and of course many will disagree and that's fine:
when P/C came into the spotlight, I was truly enchanted with their Mozart... didn't like their SD at all... wasn't pleased about the overall result as I saw them on the second or third step of the podium... BUT I LOVED their style and their FD. I was perfectly fine after a few weeks with the idea of P/C as world champions, young skaters with already a very precise style.
Since then, they have failed to impress me year after year. Why? I don't see progress in that style... I see it repeated over and over with less and less originality.
On top of that, the SDs are often their weak point because if they glide so beautifully on ice, and even if I am sure they are great off-ice dancers, the styles don't always translate on the ice... especially this year for me: I don't see latin dance from them... (well they are not the only ones but... i was hoping for better).
In the end, to me an artist is someone who can bring me all kinds of different emotions... and I feel that there is only one main kind of emotion I feel when watching P/C... it's a very great feeling but I like variety..
I am not a fan of Moulin Rouge either...
I saw Latch and Moulin Rouge live... I had goose bumps for the first one.. nothing for MR... though, it's improving already.
I don't want to appear as I am not being fair here as I know V/M have a lot of work to do to convince me this year... but I think that Moonlight sonata misses the mark in the second part of it... as beautiful as it is at the beginning, it's a failure of a concept when the faster section comes in... so to me, the program not only has awful music cuts, but makes no sense... and that's a huge issue...
this being said, i thin it's amazing what such young ice dancers can achieve already. I am happy to hear they intend to continue for another quad. I simply hope that they will go somewhere in their style exploration... not deeper.. somewhere else. I am getting slightly bored and I do think that's why VM are going after things they haven't done... even if MR can seem tacky, and it is, I think they are pushing themselves with something they love but haven't done...
in any case, it's going to be a huge battle... and let's hope it's not decided by a freak accident or a corrupted panel... (olympics... never safe from weird judges)
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