Well it’s not true! Their TES was really good at NHK Trophy in spite Anna wasn’t 100% ready after her injury. And everybody knows the tech panel wasn’t generous with the points at SA. Also they made a mistake in a lift in the FD, that’s why the low scores for their FD. They can improve and I see more potential in their programs. They can easily beat C/B if they skate clean.
2018 Olympic Season: Ice Dance
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Well it’s not true! Their TES was really good at NHK Trophy in spite Anna wasn’t 100% ready after her injury. And everybody knows the tech panel wasn’t generous with the points at SA. Also they made a mistake in a lift in the FD, that’s why the low scores for their FD. They can improve and I see more potential in their programs. They can easily beat C/B if they skate clean.
Question for the ice dance experts: I remember only like 2 seasons ago, Chock and Bates seemed pretty neck and neck with the Shibs and Bobrova/Soloviev, and ready to break through to challenge Capellini/Lanotte, Weaver/Poje, et al. Now it seems they're losing steam or maybe just favor. Have Chock/Bates regressed in actual skills, or is it more a political thing? Or are their programs just not good?
Actually, Chock/Bates seemed to be leaving the Shibs in the dust. They won 2015 Nationals and the silver medal at 2015 Worlds, losing only to Papadakis/Cizeron. The Shibs had their turnaround, and had caught up to Chock/Bates.
I am too surprised by their struggles with levels because that used to be their calling card in the past. Now that the Shibs and Hubbell and Donahue are in top form, Madison's relatively lesser skating skills are much more noticeable. So I don't know how much that plays into it.
It's so strange to me because it seems Chock/Bates had all that momentum, and then it just... trailed off somewhere and I don't quite know why. I can see where he's the stronger skater between them, but always thought Madison made up for it with performance quality, and they seemed fast and crisp (when they didn't err). Whereas, I can't for the life of me figure out why Cappellini/Lanotte score as high as they do. As a fan, ice dance is so tricky to figure out sometimes!
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I don't think C/B regressed in terms of skating skills. After a dismal or disastrous 2016-2017 season, the judges most likely view them differently. It's too early to dismiss them as has-beens. C/L went through that phase ... the Shibs, too. I think they're dealing with confidence-issue _ specifically Evan. Anyway, they're fighters and they have a fighting chance to medal despite the naysayers. They have 2 great programs which they currently are working on....
Bates had a whole season where he couldn’t really do twizzles right! The 2016-2017 One. Really hurt them. Shouldn’t be too sad for them! They are in the gpf and a contender for bronze unlike bobrova soloviev.
If you take the 2014-2015 season and the 2015-2016, only 3 teams beat them : WeaPo, Shibs, and P/C. (Also C/L in Cup of China 2015 I think ?). They are 2-time world medallists.
Last season, they almost beat V/M in Skate Canada too. But then that year, they kept making mistakes : shaky or botched twizzles, fall at GPF, etc. Plus if you look at everyone since 2014, P/C and Shibs have made such an improvement that it's not actually catchable now I think. H/D look like a new team too and what C/B had over them was performance quality and a lot of speed. It's not the case anymore.
But if you look at it, they haven't been dumped at all : they beat Shibs in the FD a Nats, they were close to podium at Worlds - again, twizzles issues - they were 3rd at 4CC too. You could argue that last year, only V/M, P/C and Shibs were above in terms of scoring.
To answer your question, for now, they have been 2nd in both their GP and technically this is still good. It's their scores that are a bit alarming (and levels) : if they want to stay competitive, they need a 75+ SD and a 112+ FD and they're far from it. And I think their programs don't do them justice at all - especially the FD which looks like it's been inspired from other teams. They're fast skaters and have amazing lifts, but it's too shallow in edges in comparaison to others. Last year they had 2 powerful programs and it carried them.
They don't look as overtrained as the Montreal teams or the Shibs too. That was the most striking thing to me.
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Ice dance is not just about twizzles, otherwise, why bother with other elements if it is the only element that matters? With Grand Prix finally here, we will know how they'll be competing side by side. It's one thing to compare scores from competitions under totally different/varying judging set-up (almost apples and oranges), it's another to see them getting judged by the SAME judges ... from the same set-up/the same set of circumstances.
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You know what?
I hope that the Shibs win the GPF. I really love their personalities, their skating, and their programs.
I'm a bit tired of seeing V/M and P/C always be the ones at the top because I think that the Shibs are just as good as them and aren't getting that recognition. I know for me I'd rather see the Shibs' programs than V/M 's or P/C 's.
I hope that the Shibs win the GPF. I really love their personalities, their skating, and their programs.
I'm a bit tired of seeing V/M and P/C always be the ones at the top because I think that the Shibs are just as good as them and aren't getting that recognition. I know for me I'd rather see the Shibs' programs than V/M 's or P/C 's.
I could find several things to why I think both V/M and P/C are better than the Shibs (objectively), however : last quad with V/M and D/W, was there any teams that was remotely close to them ? Just a tiny bit ? Because I think at least for the judges now, it's way closer. But even with other teams, it shows that the Technical is much more important now. You can't do always with PCS scoring anymore.
I did a comparaison of the 3 teams for the SD in the SkAm SD thread if you want to take a look
We could do that for the FD too, that would just take a little longer. (I'm on it though :thumbsupThen, it comes down to personnal preference. In the SD I think Shibs are killing it, and I was not expecting them to rock the Latin SD that much. They can definitely crack that 80.
It’s true but really only North America based teams could get away with not having twizzles.
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Tell that to H/D who wiped out on their twizzles at Worlds FD or Weaver/Poje who lost 4CC 2016 due to Andrew's twizzle error. Or Chock/Bates all of last season. There are usually other elements that other teams mess up or get lower levels on that make up for smaller twizzle issues that the other teams have. That said, I do think there's some protocol judging going on where elements and specific PCS categories aren't being graded on their own but being used to rank teams to maintain a hierarchy...namely for Guignard/Fabbri and a slew of other lower-ranked teams. That's just ice dance though and every team that is enjoying success now had a wait your turn part of their career with some exceptions (like P/C who won Worlds on their second senior year, V/M who like P/C only really had one season of a "wait your turn" during their senior debut, and one can argue the Shibs who earned a World bronze in 2011 though the seasons after that were definitely wait your turn plus the Shibs stagnating a bit due to Maia's growth spurt and Alex's chronic back injuries).
I meant sloppy mess twizzles not what happened to h/d! That’s like extreme failure.
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Just a flawed twizzle compared to H/D's disastrous twizzle pulled C/B down to 8th place, and 7th overall (from 4th in SD down to 8th in FD). So they were heavily penalized. And speaking of mistakes, Cizeron's fall in their FD did not prevent them from scoring 110.16. And by the way, despite Zach's disastrous fall, their FD earned 101.17.
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...but don't you think that this 'doom and gloom' as you've described it, may be not so directly connected with Tessa and Scott, but with how they are perceived by judges in terms of their material? Let's face it - it's still a competition where lots of things could happen, but judges clearly made their minds about programs preferred in terms of reception, overall look and feel (at least FD), and this is in a huge favour of Papadakis/Cizeron. Even, if there are levels lots/not getting all lvl4s in FD, PCS and GOEs received so far by Gabriella and Guillaume proves that panels are much more keen to go with high scores for 'Moonlight Sonata' and adding to that their consistency on hitting their SD - liking it or not - Virtue/Moir's 'advantage' you mentioned in no longer in use this season; if both teams are going to have same base values of their programs, it's hard to imagine Canadians going above French judging-wise. It's just a simple realization based on how GP season went, how score tendencies looked like - judges' preference in regards to material was clearly presented, no need to necessarily make it into 'doom and gloom about V/M' themselves - it's more about not having a 'momentum' built, right circumstances to do so in comparison to their biggest competitors. And at the end, a lot of people will blame them anyway due to their FD choice, which is already happening - it was definitely a risk to take on this music and this kind of program and it shows in reception, both judges and viewers; however, I do not see a reason to put a wall between 'Moulin Rouge' and 'Moonlight Sonata', trash one in cost of another - one's excellence does not mean lack of excellence potential in another one, all comes to the preference and response at the end and this is what we have.
ETA - and meanwhile, I got much more interested and excited about US teams, because all 3 of them have great, great material - just either not yet perfectly executed or received/convincing enough for judges. It makes me happy to see Shibutanis maintaining excellence and polish in their work, with continuous emotional, personal engagement growth in it expressed; they truly made their programs very universal and accessible this season, sourcing from their best capabilities, yet challenging themselves. It's actually funny to see comments about their SD being 'childish', especially from those who expect only one, sensual/physical/'couple chemistry' side of Latin dance to see, not really realizing that there are multiple shades of that aesthetic and making it sassy and fun, hip and colourful from young people Maia and Alex are does not make it 'childish' automatically. I just wish that Madison and Zach would get higher rewards for their material and this raw, real feeling of connection between them they convey while performing. They make me believe in the picture they show, story they tell, gesture they express - and all is packed in such sophisticated, elegant, classy package. Madison and Evan will get there execution-wise I believe, I really like their SD and I LOVE their 'Imagine' FD.
ISU Video - Road to the final - qualified couples
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8fEjcBZea4
Less than one week left
I believe there is a "delay" with relation to PCS in dance. But "wait your turn" is not quite accurate.
No, you aren't suddenly going to grab higher PCS the first time your TES goes over another team. But let's look at Guignard & Fabbri, shall we? They had great technical scores in France. Now people are singing their praises. But people have short memories. Were they singing G&F's praises earlier this season? No. Why not? Because G&F missed their twizzles--very rare for them--at Rostelecom. And G&F bailed on a lift at Lombardia. And G&F had a spectacular fall at Europeans last season.
OK, so taking those into account, they got nowhere.
Same with Hubbell & Donohue last season. They started winning base value marks as early as Skate America. But did they repeat that level of performance? Nope. They had a glitchy performance at TDF, a fall at Nationals, obvious mistakes at 4CCs, a fall at Worlds.
PCS does not go up that way.
But you don't have to sit around waiting for someone to retire. Perseverance is for sure a strength because you are going to have rough performances, competitions in tough locations, biased panels, what have you.
But what you have to do is go out and skate strong. And skate strong again. And skate strong again.
That's how P&C got to the top in 2015. That's how the Shibs climbed the ranks in 2016. That is what Stepanova & Bukin are doing right now. Skating strong.
Not waiting. Not getting the marks right away. But throughout the course of several performances.
You have to have the technical goods. But if you do and do your job over the course of several performances, you climb. You may not climb as fast as fans want you to. You may not climb past other teams with the technical goods. And you aren't likely to climb past those strong steady teams with mutual difficulty. You're probably going to have to have superior difficulty or more consistency.
But it's doable.
After what the Shibs did in Russia, they are pushing up and they will not be denied these OG. These two have nerves of steel. The improvements they showed at SA was commendable. I really hope they score at least bronze. They have two great programs this season. While I feel for H/D I find their FD a bit too heavy and monotonous. I'm not really feeling the heat many claim to feel when watching these two. Their S/D does much better on that score. But really looking forward to the GPF, maybe these dancers would like to change our perception of things. 
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