2018 US Championships Sr. Pairs SP | Page 8 | Golden Skate

2018 US Championships Sr. Pairs SP

shiroKJ

Back to the forest you go.
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 9, 2014
Ugh I hate that I really like C/L because that means constant (but expected) heartbreak.

But for a sparkling new team, their pairs elements are improving nicely.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
SK/K (PB 32.80) This season: 29.56, 30.66, 30.71 NATIONALS: 33.11 (+2.8 above season average)

K/O (PB 28.80) This season: 28.80 NATIONALS: 31.35 (+2.55 above season average)

S/B (PB 26.89) This season: 26.24, 24.75, 26.89 NATIONALS: 30.15 (+4.2 above season average)

D/F (PB 30.17) This season: 28.32, 29.71, 29.34, NATIONALS: 30.01 (+0.89 above season average)

C/T (PB 29.97) this season: 28.28, 28.30, 29.48 NATIONALS: 29.05 (+0.36 above season average)

My conclusion is that USFS seems to really hate D/F and C/T for whatever reason, and loves S/B for unknown reasons. SK/K were underscored technically, PCS was fair.
 

WeakAnkles

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2011
Ugh I hate that I really like C/L because that means constant (but expected) heartbreak.

But for a sparkling new team, their pairs elements are improving nicely.


Yes, C/L are becoming like C/T. Both teams really have such potential and then...

Stop breaking my heart.
 

Button's Niece

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
I've said before that I like the unitards on Cain and Leduc because they emphasize their long lines, but they don't work well in showing off lift positions because her limbs disappear into the crowd...

Meanwhile we've got 5 teams within 3.6 points from 4th-8th
 

labgoat

Sipping a strawberry lemonade on a hot day…
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
My conclusion is that USFS seems to really hate D/F and C/T for whatever reason, and loves S/B for unknown reasons. SK/K were underscored technically, PCS was fair.

Judges prefer consistency on the sbs jumps.
 

bobbob

Medalist
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Judges prefer consistency on the sbs jumps.

Well the international scores represent that too..it's not like C/T or D/F suddenly started missing SBS jumps...their international scores would be even higher if they got them. US judges seem to have an over-tendency to be lenient to newer, completely unproven teams...

In any case, whether you hit a single SBS jump or not should not affect your PCS by 3 points, that's almost 1 point per component.
 

labgoat

Sipping a strawberry lemonade on a hot day…
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Country
United-States
Overall I see some improvement overall in the us pairs program, but still a long way to go.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
This was the first time I've watched a full pairs comp in quite a while. Normally, I just watch after-the-fact videos of favorites.

It wasn't exactly the mess I recall. I enjoyed quite a few performances.

I'm not sure the judges knew what to think of the whole thing, except that they definitely weren't going to hold anyone up. I liked that.

I'm a Cain/LeDuc fan, but they didn't deserve better than 8th for that performance, so I can't complain.

I liked Nate and Deanna, too. Not as much as Johnny and Tara, who, holding true to form, couldn't shut up. Still, I admit they don't skate "big" at least through the television screen, so I can see why their PCS hurt.
 

ruffledgrouse

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 20, 2014
This was the first time I've watched a full pairs comp in quite a while. Normally, I just watch after-the-fact videos of favorites.

It wasn't exactly the mess I recall. I enjoyed quite a few performances.

I'm not sure the judges knew what to think of the whole thing, except that they definitely weren't going to hold anyone up. I liked that.

I'm a Cain/LeDuc fan, but they didn't deserve better than 8th for that performance, so I can't complain.

I liked Nate and Deanna, too. Not as much as Johnny and Tara, who, holding true to form, couldn't shut up. Still, I admit they don't skate "big" at least through the television screen, so I can see why their PCS hurt.
I'm the rink now. Don't know how it looked through a screen, but live Deanna and Bart were amazing! Biggest applause of the night and we'll earned.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
My tardy observations on the last few:

1. I'm in love with Max Settlage. Just the way he is with his partner, who's brand new to pairs. They're looking good; I already like D/S better than with his former partner. I mean, the two of them BECAME A TEAM first, which is the way it should be done. But it's usually done .... hmm, what shall I say .... back-ask-wards by US pairs.

2. Haven and Brandon, oh, doubles? Better luck in the FS, where their lifts are some of the most spectacular ... and critically for me, it looks like she simply adores being airborne! Her smiles really sell their programs.

3. Marissa and Mervin, business as usual. They're so gorgeous and outstanding in many ways. They should have scrapped both their single jump techniques when they first paired together, then learned them anew with the same technique. Would have served them better, IMHO; and starting over together might have actually given them more confidence in the jumps.

4. Nica and Danny, way to go. Way to show you belong here, right among last year's gold, silver & bronze medalists!

5. Ashley and Tim. Oh oh oh oh. I'm another heartbroken one. I'm invested in them. They really didn't show their best today; pressure, maybe. They seem to have sophomore slump, after actually winning the short program last year. But, there's always a bright side: they have a spectacular, fun long program, and they'll be hungry to show what they can actually do!

I'm so invested in watching, breathing, and experiencing the skating programs and their music .... I can't possibly keep up with this thread or even keep up in real time with what I want to post. But I wouldn't change me for the world, or my experience of the competitions. I really really enjoyed this one! It got dark outside, and I didn't even realize it! :)
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Perhaps the judges were sending SK/K a message...get those SBS jumps together...because we have other quality teams nipping on your heels?

Except that nobody has been nipping at the Knierims' heels internationally for the past few seasons. Only artificial, difficult-to-understand Nationals judging can make it seem like someone is nipping at their heels.

4 judges gave Kayne/O'Shea +1s on their twist, which is simply wrong. That was a -1 twist at best, and could easily have been -2 for severe lack of height, poor rotation, poor catch, and just an overall lack of quality on the element. Considering that 2 judges only gave K/K +2s for their twist, there's just not enough differentiation in this Nationals scoring between a world class twist and a very weak twist. I'd put K/K's twist in the top 3 in the world, but they barely get an advantage on it at their own Nationals.

K/O also got a couple +2s on their 3STh, which doesn't make any sense given how small the throw was and her somewhat shaky, low-chested landing. S/K have a much better quality throw, even with a bobble beforehand. But if K/O are getting a +2 for a weak throw, how do you properly reward S/K for having a world class 3FTh that has real explosiveness, height, and distance?

I don't know why they got identical scores on their death spirals either. K/K's is better, Alexa's descent into it is better, more aesthetically pleasing (Tarah squats into order to get down into the death spiral). Alexa has better arch, straighter knees. It's frustrating as a big pairs fan to see this type of scoring. K/K should absolutely have a bigger lead.


Yes I'm sure the judging panel is made up of unqualified judges without proper training. There sure is a lot of hate for K/O. Give them a break, they're coming off a serious injury from before and during last year's nats.

I think it's reasonable to ask if the national judging panels are comprised of all judges who also judge major international pair events and have a very strong awareness of the quality of pair skating that is rewarded internationally. I have heard of singles judges sometimes judging both singles and pairs, and I'm wondering if they are all experts in both disciplines. I'm curious to know if all of the national judges have judged pairs at a Worlds or 4CC before.
 

TontoK

Hot Tonto
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 28, 2013
Country
United-States
I'm the rink now. Don't know how it looked through a screen, but live Deanna and Bart were amazing! Biggest applause of the night and we'll earned.

Don't get me wrong - I loved it. I'm glad to hear it was so well received. My perception - again just watching through the screen - was that it didn't snap as much as SK/K. And I'm by no means a SK/K fan.

My real rooting interest was in Cain/LeDuc, who didn't perform well at all.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
I don't have a problem so much with the placements. The issue is with the spotty scoring. Liu/Johnson should have been scored higher. By holding them down since they skated earlier, top teams who later made serious mistakes, then by necessity were placed behind Liu/Johnson, which means some good teams are bunched down around 60. D/F got a break and were placed ahead of Liu/Johnson slightly.

C/T can not afford to fall on any jumps, but they certainly deserved higher PCS. They are one of the best stylistic teams in the world, with huge speed, nice edges and great transitions. It won't do them any favors though until they solve their jump snafus. At least this time, one of their coaches from Canada was with them in the kiss 'n cry.

The top three teams at Nationals were given scores they would never be given internationally (even skating clean, and S-K/K were not clean but made up for it with other strengths), while the low scoring teams were given scores fairly closer to how they would fare internationally.
 

twirlingaround

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
SK/K (PB 32.80) This season: 29.56, 30.66, 30.71 NATIONALS: 33.11 (+2.8 above season average)

K/O (PB 28.80) This season: 28.80 NATIONALS: 31.35 (+2.55 above season average)

S/B (PB 26.89) This season: 26.24, 24.75, 26.89 NATIONALS: 30.15 (+4.2 above season average)

D/F (PB 30.17) This season: 28.32, 29.71, 29.34, NATIONALS: 30.01 (+0.89 above season average)

C/T (PB 29.97) this season: 28.28, 28.30, 29.48 NATIONALS: 29.05 (+0.36 above season average)

My conclusion is that USFS seems to really hate D/F and C/T for whatever reason, and loves S/B for unknown reasons. SK/K were underscored technically, PCS was fair.

I think USFSA do not hate D/F abs C/T but D/F are dealing with somewhat being punished and have slipped in the game of politics which plays a big part in figure skating as we know. Sure they have not helped themselves but today they did look stronger then any previous competition and although Frazier did a double they clearly have improved. Hopefully they have tough skin and keep going after this season. C/T unfortunately are also held down and low on the political ladder due to Tran not a US Citizen.
 

skylark

Gazing at a Glorious Great Lakes sunset
Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 12, 2014
Country
United-States
Well the international scores represent that too..it's not like C/T or D/F suddenly started missing SBS jumps...their international scores would be even higher if they got them. US judges seem to have an over-tendency to be lenient to newer, completely unproven teams...

In any case, whether you hit a single SBS jump or not should not affect your PCS by 3 points, that's almost 1 point per component.

That's true, and to be honest, it's something I've noticed about Americans in general (and I am one). We seem to like to see an upstart step in and show up the experienced ones, and I'm not just talking about figure skating, but in all walks of life. When I say "we," it's an observation about the collective. But I don't like that tendency. To me, it sort of seems like thumbing your nose at experience and the tried-and-true qualities that uphold standards.

But having said that, I'm not immune to the happiness that comes when an exciting new pair makes a splash. It may also be related to the emotional climate they create, which is entirely separate from questions of technique. I'm completely on board with that ... because all of figure skating, for me, is about what the skaters can make me feel, what emotions they can convey through their skating. A sport that relies on technical excellence only does absolutely nothing for me.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Just to clarify: the US only has one spot for pairs at the OG because Haven and Brandon didn’t make it out of the short program at last year’s worlds, right?

Not to throw salt in the wound while they skate, I just wanted to be sure that narrative was correct.

Ah stop with throwing shade. It's not just Haven/Brandon's fault. The ISU rules are in error with the increased depth in pairs worldwide. The ISU should have permitted more teams to qualify. The stakes were already loaded against U.S. teams, and both U.S. teams at Worlds in 2017 were coming back from serious health issues. The fact that Haven Denney is even skating again after the type of surgery she sustained on her knee should be cause for celebration.

Haven had trouble with landing her triples cleanly last year, and with an entire season off rehabbing, they both had a lot to overcome in their first season back. And they can hold their heads up for how they've come through, and are improving in some areas this season. They were trying to hard at Worlds 2017 and they blew it on a couple of elements in pairs. End of story. Should they now be tarred and feathered and run out on a rail forever? They are not to be blamed. They are a good team with very strong lifts and they've improved aesthetically. As Brooke Castile noted, D/F mainly need to improve consistent speed and flow, as well as fully regain their confidence.
 
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