2018 Worlds Mens Short Program

LucyH

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
This whole more/difficult quads = more PCS proposition you're trying to defend makes a bunch of assumptions that aren't always true. For example, I don't necessarily think a quad provides a greater musical highlight than a triple just by virtue of being harder. To borrow an example from pairs, S/M's huge +3 GOE throw 3F or T/M's gigantic +3 GOE throw 3Lo are MUCH more impressive musical highlights than D/R's throw 4S, which is relatively smaller, entered with less speed with a longer entrance, and landed with less flow than the throw triples of S/M or T/M.

And all your points only make sense if a program with quads is directly comparable to the exact same program with triples. But that usually doesn't happen in reality--in reality, a lot of skaters who do difficult quads take out choreography to incorporate long set-ups into quads that they don't need for triples, tighten up and don't really perform until all their quads are landed, etc. (which is totally understandable--quads are difficult!). For example, just compare Nathan Chen's programs from earlier this season at the US Int'l FS Classic to the program he's doing now at Worlds and at the Olympics, particularly the LP. Chen's programs--particularly the LP--looked amazing at the beginning of the season with a ton of detail in the choreography and he was performing the programs with great emotional depth and commitment while doing fewer, easier quads. By the time the Olympics rolled around, he took out a ton of choreographic detail particularly in his LP and mostly skated around setting up for his six quads and didn't really perform until all the jumps were over. Even if you ignore the fact that Chen watered down his choreography, it's a huge stretch to say that his program deserved higher PCS in IN, PE, etc. just by virtue of him having six quads. It's the same for Shoma Uno, who's doing more crossovers than ever to set up for all the quads in his programs this season.

That's why I'm OK with Kolyada receiving high PCS despite only doing 1-quad SP here. Without the 4Lz hanging over his head in the SP, he was visibly more relaxed and performed much better in between the jumps than he usually does.

Kolyada received higher PCS because he DESERVED higher PCS. TCS is for the technical piece, PCS is for the overall composition of the program (flow, transitions, choreography, interpretation of music and just because you throw 5 or 6 quads into it doesn't automatically make it better. In fact, most of the time it takes away from the overall feel of the program). Nathan and Vincent were both over scored for PCS. There should have been an EVEN BIGGER gap. We'll see what the new rules do but hopefully it will better reward quality over quantity. The last thing I want to see if the judges use the bigger span of GOE to artificially inflate/deflate scores. We have enough of that already!!!
 

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
Medalist
Joined
Apr 16, 2006
I know US media built this image of Nathan Chen being not just a great jumper but also very artistic but when you break down all his elements, it's not that true.

His components shouldn't be higher than Deniss Vasiljevs or Dmitri Aliev.

I'm not going based off any media. I'm going from what I saw in the program and/or the skater. Nathan has a lot of natural charisma.
 

coldblueeyes

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Country
Brazil
I'm not going based off any media. I'm going from what I saw in the program and/or the skater. Nathan has a lot of natural charisma.

Natural charisma doesn't really go anywhere in the PCS, especially if he can't translate that into Interpretation or Performance, and those are only two of the five categories.
 

TerpsichoreFS

Marin Honda's skating skills
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
I'm not going based off any media. I'm going from what I saw in the program and/or the skater. Nathan has a lot of natural charisma.

He does! He has star quality. I noticed right away in Marseille in 2016. I think he could pull almost anything. But I think that quality doesn't translate that well on camera.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
It's the same for Shoma Uno, who's doing more crossovers than ever to set up for all the quads in his programs this season.

While attempting another dig at Shoma is completely unsurprising, this statement of yours is fundamentally misleading and factually incorrect. I don't consider skating around the edges to generate speed as "set up", I consider the steps leading into the jumps as setup. Sure, he might have 2-4 crosscuts around the edges of the rink to generate speed (which is completely normal for skaters do; e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqFkzY5XxUo#t=2m47s), but he's not just simply doing crossovers into the quads -- he's still doing actual transitions going into these quads.

Exhibit A (4T at WC2018 SP - the SP he just did): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjLbLNHhoH0#t=50s

Exhibit B (4L at SC2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-qOKb5WoX4#t=50s

Exhibit C (4F at GPF2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPbgl65_94#t=3m30s

Exhibit D (4T combo at Lombardia 2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y27_bUXsuUo&t=3m38s (this one is pretty much the same setup as Hanyu's 3 crosscuts prior to the double-3 transition)

And those are just a couple of examples, of different quads, from 4 different competitions throughout this season.
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think rather than to focus on the past, we should focus on the future. Of course, we'll miss the older generation, but I said it at the GPF. These guys who are competing here, will be the dominant skaters for the next 4 years in the men event. Better get used to them, instead of crying about who isn't here. (Or become one of these people who say they are done with FS, but always return)

I feel the same. We are witnessing a 'change of guard' so to speak and it is sad and exciting at the same time. Very interested to see how upcoming rules changes will affect next season's layouts, would it be the end of the 'quad race'?
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
While attempting another dig at Shoma is completely unsurprising, this statement of yours is fundamentally misleading and factually incorrect. I don't consider skating around the edges to generate speed as "set up", I consider the steps leading into the jumps as setup. Sure, he might have 2-4 crosscuts around the edges of the rink to generate speed (which is completely normal for skaters do; e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqFkzY5XxUo#t=2m47s), but he's not just simply doing crossovers into the quads -- he's still doing actual transitions going into these quads.

Exhibit A (4T at WC2018 SP - the SP he just did): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjLbLNHhoH0#t=50s

Exhibit B (4L at SC2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-qOKb5WoX4#t=50s

Exhibit C (4F at GPF2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJPbgl65_94#t=3m30s

Exhibit D (4T combo at Lombardia 2017 FS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y27_bUXsuUo&t=3m38s (this one is pretty much the same setup as Hanyu's 3 crosscuts prior to the double-3 transition)

And those are just a couple of examples, of different quads, from 4 different competitions throughout this season.

If you look at Shoma's programs from past seasons, he has far more interesting and musical choreographic content between the jumps that aren't simply transitions coming before jumps. That was what I was referring to.

I'm actually a big fan of Shoma (if you look at my past posts, you'll find plenty of posts defending his skating). And contrary to what you may believe, my comment wasn't a dig, simply an expression of how disappointed I am with Shoma's programs this season given that I believe he is capable of far more than what he is currently showing on the PCS side.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
If you look at Shoma's programs from past seasons, he has far more interesting and musical choreographic content between the jumps that aren't simply transitions coming before jumps. That was what I was referring to.

I'm actually a big fan of Shoma (if you look at my past posts, you'll find plenty of posts defending his skating). And contrary to what you may believe, my comment wasn't a dig, simply an expression of how disappointed I am with Shoma's programs this season given that I believe he is capable of far more than what he is currently showing on the PCS side.

To me, criticizing how "interesting and musical choreographic content between the jumps" is in Shoma's programs is different than asserting that Shoma "does more crossovers than ever to set up for all the quads". But thank you for clarifying what you meant. :)

I also think he's capable of more than he shows, but I don't think his programs are considerably less impactful. Of course, all the guys have busier programs now that they're doing greater difficulty. But this difficulty does make it harder to execute choreography well, which should be reflected in the PCS. And I think it makes a stronger, more impactful statement overall. A skater doing doubles/triples and the exact same program has it easier and doesn't leave the same impression unless their skating or choreography is absolutely sublime (as in what Chan/Brown/Hanyu/Takahashi is, and Kolyada isn't quite yet).
 

Arriba627

TAKE ME TO SHOMPÉRY!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 2, 2014
Country
Mars
Very late to the party here, but just wanted to share a few thoughts on the men's short program. The enthusiastic crowds are making these events even more fun than usual.

Great skates from Keegan and my Deniss (so fun to see him and Stephane SO happy!). Audience went crazy. I'm sure Keegan's face hurt the following day from smiling so much in the Kiss and Cry! Special shout out to Kazuki for dealing with the pressure and all the emotion of his first Worlds. That is the first time I have ever seen him live, and it was a treat! Donovan Carillo -- what can I say? This kid has star quality! Congrats on making it to the FS (albeit by the skin of his teeth). I'd have to give Paul Fentz my most improved program of the night. I saw him at Sk Can, and he didn't seem at all comfortable with this program. This time around he was really selling it, and had a great 4T-3T to boot!

Boyang got a gasp out of all the people seated in my area. He jumped his 4Lz so close to the boards at the other end, then came down to our end and jumped his 4T super close to the boards -- so close he had to sort of curl his free leg around so as to not touch the wall. That makes me very nervous!...My Shoma -- what can I say. He did the best he could with an injury. Hope he is ok for the free.
 

anonymoose_au

Making rhinestone vest and tie combos cool
Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 22, 2014
Country
Australia
Finally caught up on some of this (they keep taking the Youtube videos down and it takes me like 2 hours to get a single video from the Russian ones (what's up with that?)

First thought of the day - I liked how the British Eurosports commentators were like "Just a 4t-3t in this program, so much easier than the other top men" about Mikhail's program. I have an image of Plushy sitting at home raising his glass "The Quad Revolution finally came!" Remember when his programs were the hardest there was?!

I really enjoyed Mikhail's skate, he has such a lovely style, it's really smooth!

Second though of the day - What happened to Moris, he was so awesome last season and now :( I believed you could fly, Moris! I hope it's just a one-off and he can come back stronger next season.

Okay, weirdo confession time.

Something about Dmitri and this program is super sexy in a historical romance hero kind of way. He's not really that hot (and too young for me if I'm being honest), but the way he carries himself to the music + the costume REALLY works for me.

That 4Lz combo looked jaw-droppingly easy. Shame about the pop.

Ha ha this is my thought exactly! He looks amazing in the costume, I actually failed to recognise him in his Free Skate costume because he looks totally different. Should be a law that he has to wear costumes like his SP one in all his program :laugh:

But 11th place? WTH? Is that justifiable? Seems ridiculously low.

Have you read the Second Mark? It really made me feel for the Chinese skaters and how hard they have to work to get those PCS marks.

I have read it and I was pretty disgusted, poor Shen and Zhao, it was practically racism what was done to them. If anything that was the biggest scandal! I mean, their skating was beautiful in the end, but something about them having to change it to 'fit' Western norms was just uncomfortable to me.

Also Boyang was robbed! Dima's lutz was OK (although I hear his technique isn't right when he does it, something about blade placement), Boyang's is absolute perfection! He should get +3.00 across the board for it. (Incidentally, I've never seen a +3.00 in the little score box...has it ever happened? Or is there always one judge who's like 'nah' and will hit the 2 or something)

Oh! And huge shout out to Donovan Carrillo! I was so excited to see he got to the FS, he's so adorable it's ridiculous! I hope he goes far!

And gooo Brendan - who was also rather robbed.

Also...I'm very sad I haven't managed to find Deniss's skate! :( Hope he knocks it outta the park today!
 

Heleng

Medalist
Joined
Dec 29, 2014
Country
United-States
Because he does not have skating skills anywhere near to PChan, nor the performance ability of a Daisuke or Lambiel or anything to merit those absurd PCS scores. Because he was propped up all season partly because of the myth that he had multiple quads, which he obviously does not. Because he's been overscored at every competition this season and now he gets a score higher than Dima got in Pyeongchang with a 4lz-3t and 4t???
With all jumps in the first half? Sure, good for him for finally skating one clean program after watering down the content. But there's no justification for a 100+ score here.

Um, he did a gorgeous textbook triple axel in the second half.
 

eppen

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 28, 2006
Country
Spain
Not really a very satisfying competition, the top were ok, but not much more. Donovan Carrillo was a slight highlight in the early groups. Was sorry to see Aliev not do that good - the program is good. Tomono was also interesting to see, a little juniorish still, though. Vasiljevs did not have the same flight and grandeur as at the Europeans, so the score was ok. Keegan Messing was perhaps the biggest surprise as he did very well for himself with a clean skate and a more than passable performance. But he is weirdly stiff and does not reach the fluidity and flow that the program perhaps aims at.

The top three were lukewarm. Shoma I barely remember as he was unremarkable in every way. Boyang distinguished himself by almost jumping over boards. Kolyada finally had the sense to drop the 4Lz from the short and looked a bit better than usually, but I still think his interpretation and performance PCS is always very over the top considering that he drops every pretence of performing for preparing his jumps (at least half a minute of the program). Vincent Zhou is like watching someone skating slowmo live.

My biggest expectations were laid on Nathan Chen who I had not seen live this season before. I liked the programs based on videos, but was curious to see whether they would look good also live. Unfortunately I have to say Nemesis failed to impress me. Nathan is slow (although faster than Vincent) and uses a lot of time in simple preparations for jumps without much performance or even transitions to prop the program up. The step sequence is to die for and it was fine even here, but it covers less than 1/3 of the program and does not save the boringness of the entire 3 minutes. He also skates smallish, extension is sometimes there, but not all the way, he does not project outwards as much as he could. I was happy that he did not medal in the Olympics as I wanted him to continue for another 4 years to develop into a well-rounded skater, because I think he has the talent for it. I just hope they start paying attention to his skating skills and his general movement in addition to all the jumping stuff.

E
 

crazydreamer

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Embarrassing that Uno got a silver medal with skates like that. I'm sure there are technical justifications for what happened, but with three falls and two under-rotations, I don't understand how his technical score was even in the top 10 for the FS. That's leaving aside entirely PCS, which were also ridiculously high given he spent so much of the program with his face in the ice.
 

LucyH

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 6, 2018
I hope the scoring at this men's event in Milan is not indicative of things of to come. Judging has always been controversial in FS - as in most "judged" sports. I think many of the judges need tutorials as to how to apply the correct GOE's. There are guidelines of how to apply them and looking at some of these "more than generous" scores given, they need a refresher course. I take no exception with Nathan winning the WC - he skated clean in the short when every one of his competitors fell all over the place but I take real exception to how OVER SCORED he was based on the what was delivered. It's not doing the sport or the skater any favours! Plus I can't stand his coach - UGH. Team BOrser all the way!
 

xeyra

Constant state
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 10, 2017
I hope the scoring at this men's event in Milan is not indicative of things of to come. Judging has always been controversial in FS - as in most "judged" sports. I think many of the judges need tutorials as to how to apply the correct GOE's. There are guidelines of how to apply them and looking at some of these "more than generous" scores given, they need a refresher course. I take no exception with Nathan winning the WC - he skated clean in the short when every one of his competitors fell all over the place but I take real exception to how OVER SCORED he was based on the what was delivered. It's not doing the sport or the skater any favours! Plus I can't stand his coach - UGH. Team BOrser all the way!

You know, the rest of your comment can be construed as an objective opinion on scoring issues but the moment you include the bolded, you kind of lose all objectivity in the argument. Just a suggestion for the future.
 
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