2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Edwin]

Yes. Tutberidze: "Either you train with me or nowhere." Very likely.

Tutberidze spoke of the conditions put forward, which she did not accept.

Possible dialogue:
Evgenia: "I have several conditions to continue training."
Eteri: "Forget about them. Only my conditions."

Very probably. The chief coach, the group leader's word is law in his/her rink. Take it, conform to it, or leave for this other, better place if you must.

I wonder wether a 17 year old in the heat of the moment is really capable of thinking all options over and evaluating them properly. What was the influence of the parent(s), (external) advisors?

Perhaps when both parties write and publish their memoirs, we will be able to solve this great mystery that kept this thread red hot with emotions, arguments and even fights, for like over two years now?

 

[Ziotic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnAV1Y4GQuw

Still not comparable to DQ. Plus this isn’t even a competition skate.

 

[ancientpeas]

I don't think it is useful for us to try and figure out exactly what was said between Eteri and Evgenia. Whatever it was and whatever happened it left bad feelings behind. I think Evgenia was 17 and was hurt and she probably felt betrayed because she was beaten not by Osmond or Kostner but by her own training mate (her younger training mate who she probably felt she was a better skater than). My feeling is that Eteri has a really hard job. On one hand she is, because she is a woman, supposed to be motherly and tender with her students and yet on the other hand she needs to drive and push them to succeed and become the best they can be. She comes across as a rather no nonsense individual. I admire her for being a strong woman in what is a largely male dominated profession. Other coaches (Brian, Mishin, Raf) have had years and years to fine tune their relationships with students. Eteri is still a young coach and I'm sure she is learning more and more everyday and improving her methods. Even Frank Carroll was still learning to be a better coach into his 60s and he coached multiple Olympic and World champions.

In my heart I hope that once the dust settles that some some sort of detente will exist between them and they can talk it out and maybe see where the other is/was coming from. It is difficult when we are teens to see adults as fallible. We expect them to know everything and have all the answers and not make mistakes and it isn't until you make some of those mistakes yourself that you realize that all we can really do is have compassion for others and try and walk in their shoes. Maybe one of them will make the first move and apologize or extend a olive branch to the other. I think that is a far better outcome for both of them than just being angry at each other forever.

 

[flanker]

Sam.. a couple of things I'd like to say here *BTW.. I feel like I'm talking to myself because all my friends call me Sam* I have seen at least a few people accuse Evgenia of being a traitor for training in Canada. Are there people who only like her now because she left Russia? Yes I think you are correct. But please do not think that she hasn't lost fans because she left and trains in the west.

Tarasova and Morozov are training in United States with Zoueva and I don't see them losing fans because of it. People are still turning it to insignificant things.

 

[Fluture]

She failed her trust because of the wrong decision regarding her injury in the Grand Prix season+ layout did not change.

We do not know that. As far as I know Zhenya has never said anything like that and I would prefer not putting words in her mouth and spreading them here.

 

[[email protected]]

different interpretations.

3. Now, this is the argument I have the most problems with and I'll tell you why. For me many interpretations are valid and I accept that people are different. But this part of the comment almost made me angry. You see in my opinion, there is NO implication whatsoever that Eteri gave up on Zhenya. On the contrary, Zhenya made it very clear that she was talking about HER body, HER mind and HER choices. Nobody else's. Saying that the only way Zhenya (or anybody else) would make a change was if the person "in charge of them" made up their minds and gave up on them does not sit right with me. It's as if skaters and athletes can only change coaches if their coach has given up on them before. Does that sound logical to you? To me it sounds ridiculous. In fact, it happens everyday that people decide to leave a situation they're in because they're feeling uncomfortable and unhappy. There don't need to be any "reasons" other than their own personal state of mind and feelings and they certainly shouldn't be blamed for that. Zhenya said there were two options for HER personally based on the way SHE ALONE felt. Eteri giving up on her or not has nothing to do with that.

In addition since I've seen the next post of yours on the subject too. Saying Evgenia implied in any way whatsoever that Eteri told her to go have babies with her statement is not only deliberately misinterpretating her interview but comes close to something worse than that. Especially since Evgenia has stated very clearly before that this rumour was not true and nothing like this was ever said or had any influence on her decisions whatsoever. I would consider re-writing that because it goes too far. That's not an opinion anymore, it's putting words in her mouth that have never been said by her in any way.

I did not say it directly that the words were said but, yes, I implied it having forgotten that Evgenija refuted them. My bad.

As for the first part, I did not get it. She said nothing about body or mind. She said that she had either to retire or to go to Canada. It means that she did not consider to go on with Eteri or any other Russian coach. The rationale for that I don't understand. The easiest explanation is that Eteri lost interest in her. I don't believe it - why would she, she said that she waited for her to start training? Then why? She did not trust Eteri any longer? - that's the last thing we have been discussing. I still don't understand what exactly was the reason of this lost trust.

 

[ancientpeas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnAV1Y4GQuw

Hi nussnacker..

Can you maybe give us a brief explanation of what that video is about? Most of us are not Russian speakers.

 

[nussnacker]

Hi nussnacker..

Can you maybe give us a brief explanation of what that video is about? Most of us are not Russian speakers.

Hi, Ancientpeas!
You can click and see for yourself

 

[Fluture]

I did not say it directly that the words were said but, yes, I implied it having forgotten that Evgenija refuted them. My bad.

As for the first part, I did not get it. She said nothing about body or mind. She said that she had either to retire or to go to Canada. It means that she did not consider to go on with Eteri or any other Russian coach. The rationale for that I don't understand. The easiest explanation is that Eteri lost interest in her. I don't believe it - why would she, she said that she waited for her to start training? Then why? She did not trust Eteri any longer? - that's the last thing we have been discussing. I still don't understand what exactly was the reason of this lost trust.

She said the decision for her was between "retire" or "make a drastic change and go to Canada". Why? There are probably many reasons for that. Do we have to know them all? Is it our right as fans? I don't think so. Zhenya is her own person and she can make her own decisions and sure as hell doesn't need to tell us the exact rationals of thinking she went through before coming to this decision. She already opens up more about her feelings than many other athletes and see where that lands her. People picking apart her every word, trying to look for something she said against Eteri. Nah. She didn't say anything about Eteri. She said something about herself. This is what matters and it makes me sad that some consider this so unimportant that they try to look for something about Eteri. Sometimes people just feel unhappy in a place and they don't have some absolutely logical and convincing arguments for how they feel. Most aren't scrutinized by media and fans like these athletes are, though, so they don't notice.

Your rationale is very confusing to me as well, I have to say. It is her saying her only choice was to retire or make a change and you immediately jump to the conclusion that she said Eteri must have given up on her. Why? Just because she wanted to change coaches. This doesn't make sense. I'll ask again: Do you think athletes can (and do) only change their coaches if the coach has given up on them before? If not, then I do not understand why you can't see that maybe Zhenya's reasons were different as well.

You also said in another post that changing to Orser didn't "change anything at all" because there is the 3 max quota per country. And I actually think that this is the problem. This was not what Zhenya was talking about when she said "choices". She meant in an emotional way, not a physical way that she literally couldn't do anything else or that she thought going to Orser would magically get her on the team again. When she said "there were only two options", she meant it for herself and nobody else. I think this is what you fail to understand. That sometimes, people make changes and decisions for purely emotional reasons because of how they feel and what they want and not what they think they will get in a material sense. Sometimes it is about thinking longterm and looking at what you want from life in general. And not "how will I get onto the team again?". Even if that certainly played a role as well. You have a bit of a limited point of view, imo. Humans are complex lol. You can't just generalize them like that and try to fit their decisions into boxes.

I have my own speculations as for why she left and they're way different than yours. I think she wanted a more individual approach to training, wanted a change after what was a traumatic experience during the Olympic season and just couldn't stand starting to work and live again like nothing had happened. To me it seems that the OG were a turning point in her life, there was no "going back". That's why it ended up being "retire or make the change drastic". Maybe Eteri played a role here, maybe not. I guess she did in some way or another. But again, what you perceive as "Eteri must have lost interest", I perceive as: "Zhenya saw the amount of girls in Eteri's group and realised that after the OG, she needed something different and wanted to work differently." Is my interpretation more "correct" than yours? No. It's just an interpretation. But I daresay it's at least a bit more similar to what Zhenya herself has said so far.

In the end we do not know her rationale beyond what she has decided to tell us.. We do not need to know more either. Zhenya made her decision and I'm sure she made it carefully and it lead her to where she is now. For better or worse, that's what she has to decide. She seems very happy so that's enough for me.

I'm editing this now to add that this will by my last post on the matter. The reason for this whole discussion was my post stating that I did not see any reason for negativity towards a young woman winning medals for her country and doing so proudly. That the immediate reaction to that was "No but you see there IS negativity and there has to be negativity and I will tell you why: See, she LEFT Eteri and did not provide a list containing her entire process of thinking before coming to this strange decision! How could she?!" tells me more than I need to know. And I think I shall leave it at that.

 

[Draculus]

These are her exact words: В принципе, я один путь и рассматривала. Точнее, два – либо все заканчивать, либо уезжать в Канаду. Решила в пользу Канады.
In principle, I considered only one way. 2 ways, exactly: either to finish with everything or to move to Canada. I decided in favor of Canada.
We don't know exactly. Well, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

I do not see and do not hear duck here. At all. Btw, you did not answer my question, did you consider other possibilities? Looks like no, only ducks?
Please, imagine, someone gives you $1000 for every other explanation (let's say in an article), how many can you propose?

I would say it's a veeery long logical chain starting from the words you quoted to "Eteri forcing me to quit". Especially keeping in mind Zhenia clarification that nobody told her "go have a baby".
And in this chain there is much more from you, than from Zhenia.

Eteri failed her trust? How exactly? Have you watched the Olympics, Eteri's reaction? Or you imply that Zhenya wanted Eteri to keep Alina in juniors. Eteri refused and that's how she failed her trust?

Please, stop implying, you are doing a very bad job in putting thoughts into ppl minds. You are spreading rumors.
Yes, of course I watched. I would say almost everything about it that is/was available about that split.
And logic here it very simple. Eteri was ... well, let's say frustrated. What does it mean? It means she expected different outcome. So Eteri made a mistake (her expectation was wrong).
For Zhenia this was a very hard mistake. Zhenia also expected something else for such skate. In the KC dialog between Eteri and Zhenia (after scores):
Zhenia: this was a maximum
Eteri: I do not thing so

Only this situation is enough to loose trust in a coach. But there are much more details.

So I think it's a very simple understanding of Zhenia words - she do not see herself with Eteri anymore, so either quit or find somebody else. No place for that accusations.

 

[flanker]

Eteri at this time knew already that the Rusfed have given the okay for the coaching change. Zhenya was given the okay to speak to Orser.

Family but a telephone interview like that? I find two lies and one manipulation and until today it worked by some.

Lies "alina junior" and "I did not know until match-tv article"
Mainpulation "Zhenya does not answer my text-messages". But at this time, Zhenya was already in negotiations with Orser.

The only lie is that it was proven a lie.

 

[Mishaminion]

Hi, Ancientpeas!
You can click and see for yourself

Alina's brilliant performance at Test Skates?

So so good!

Made me feel better after banging my head against a wall after seeing the Zhenya-Eteri-Alina drama pop up here for the... 200th time

 

[ancientpeas]

Tarasova and Morozov are training in United States with Zoueva and I don't see them losing fans because of it. People are still turning it to insignificant things.

Under a Russian coach though.

I think part of it maybe that we (and by that I mean most other countries than Russia) have had to send our skaters to other countries to train because that is where the coaching talent is. Canadians have trained in the U.S. with U.S. coaches for years. Right now W/P train with Morozov in Russia and no one in Canada cares at all. Keegan Messing trains in Alaska. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who cares about that here. Mao and Miki Ando trained with Russian coaches. Yuzu trains with a Canadian. I'm not sure it matters much to people outside of Russia where you train and who you train with. Russia has had such a long history of great skating that it has the coaching talent that most of its skaters do not need to go elsewhere to train and so when one of your top ladies decides to train in Canada it probably seems differently to some Russians that it would to say a British or Korean person.

Having said that I will say this about T/M ..they are a pair team. Pairs has always been the least popular discipline while Ladies has always been the most popular. Pairs fans (as evident in the pairs competition chat vs the ladies competition chat) are a way more laid back bunch. For the most part we just don't want to see anyone get hurt and usually it is pretty obvious who should win the competition so we aren't fighting about who won either. I just don't think as many people care about pairs as passionately as they do about Ladies. Which is shame since pairs is, and always will be, my favourite. Gordeeva and Grinkov were my first great skating love. I wanted to have Katia as my Russian pen pal friend. 1988 was a difficult time to root not only for G/G over the Canadian teams but K/P in ID over the Canadian ID teams without getting the side eye.


Actually I just thought of something interesting: Anytime a Canadian trains with a Russian coach the media here treats it like they have been blessed by the skating gods. (see press on Tessa and Scott and Weaver and Poje as examples I could probably find for you online). How wonderful it is that the great Russian coaches have seen that this Canadian(s) has talent. Also Russians coaches are exotic and slightly mysterious to our press so there is often this kind of.. reverence and awe. Gosh.. if either Tatiana had coached a Canadian the media would have probably been embarrassing in their fawning over them. As I said a few weeks ago in the Pairs thread.."What Russian coach do we have to hire so that our pair teams have decent twists?"

 

[ancientpeas]

Hi, Ancientpeas!
You can click and see for yourself

oh.. sorry. When I clicked on it I must have seen the ad only and it was in Russian and the explanation of what the video was in Russian so I figured I wouldn't understand what they were saying.

 

[Draculus]

It means that she did not consider to go on with Eteri or any other Russian coach. The rationale for that I don't understand.

It's ok if you don't understand someone (and btw ppl motivation is not always rational). It's not ok if you imply something negative if you don't understand someone.

 

[nussnacker]

Alina's brilliant performance at Test Skates?

So so good!

Made me feel better after banging my head against a wall after seeing the Zhenya-Eteri-Alina drama pop up here for the... 200th time

moving on...
have you seen that Trusova got a poodle as a present from her parents?
I think first her dad promised to gift her one for winning Junior Worlds, he didn't though and then he promised a poodle for landing a 3A.
So now, they finally got her a poodle.
Am I getting my hopes up for thinking it's for the landed 3A? :scard8:

 

[flanker]

Under a Russian coach though.

I think part of it maybe that we (and by that I mean most other countries than Russia) have had to send our skaters to other countries to train because that is where the coaching talent is. Canadians have trained in the U.S. with U.S. coaches for years. Right now W/P train with Morozov in Russia and no one in Canada cares at all. Keegan Messing trains in Alaska. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who cares about that here. Mao and Miki Ando trained with Russian coaches. Yuzu trains with a Canadian. I'm not sure it matters much to people outside of Russia where you train and who you train with. Russia has had such a long history of great skating that it has the coaching talent that most of its skaters do not need to go elsewhere to train and so when one of your top ladies decides to train in Canada it probably seems differently to some Russians that it would to say a British or Korean person.

Having said that I will say this about T/M ..they are a pair team. Pairs has always been the least popular discipline while Ladies has always been the most popular. Pairs fans (as evident in the pairs competition chat vs the ladies competition chat) are a way more laid back bunch. For the most part we just don't want to see anyone get hurt and usually it is pretty obvious who should win the competition so we aren't fighting about who won either. I just don't think as many people care about pairs as passionately as they do about Ladies. Which is shame since pairs is, and always will be, my favourite. Gordeeva and Grinkov were my first great skating love. I wanted to have Katia as my Russian pen pal friend. 1988 was a difficult time to root not only for G/G over the Canadian teams but K/P in ID over the Canadian ID teams without getting the side eye.


Actually I just thought of something interesting: Anytime a Canadian trains with a Russian coach the media here treats it like they have been blessed by the skating gods. (see press on Tessa and Scott and Weaver and Poje as examples I could probably find for you online). How wonderful it is that the great Russian coaches have seen that this Canadian(s) has talent. Also Russians coaches are exotic and slightly mysterious to our press so there is often this kind of.. reverence and awe. Gosh.. if either Tatiana had coached a Canadian the media would have probably been embarrassing in their fawning over them. As I said a few weeks ago in the Pairs thread.."What Russian coach do we have to hire so that our pair teams have decent twists?"

The fact that pairs are less popular generally doesn't mean they are not followed closely particularly in Russia. And T/M are still pair No. 1 and "shop window" of the russian pairs and figure skating as a whole, so I wouldn't consider it as a matter of popularity between singles/pairs. To behonest, Eteri's own daughter is training in the US now, even when with a former russian coach. The change of coaches itself is not such a deal in this case. I'm staying by how colormyworld240 explained it. I can't be formulated better.

But to be honest this has no purpose, I believe Eteri, Zhenya and Alina will be long retired and people will still discuss there and back "who is the bad guy here" (oh, no, this wasn't meant to be the allusion on that awful song, now it's in my head again ).

 

[Fluture]

It's ok if you don't understand someone (and btw ppl motivation is not always rational). It's not ok if you imply something negative if you don't understand someone.

I think this is the main point and you managed to make it shorter than I did. :thumbsup:

These athletes are real people and they can and should make their own decisions and should not feel the need to justify them to anybody. If they want to talk about their feelings and their thought process, it's something I admire. But it's wrong to expect an "explanation". If you don't understand it, your problem, not Zhenya's. She's actually given her reasons more than once. People would just have to listen but apparently they're either not capable or choose not to. And if it's still not "detailed" enough or doesn't "make sense" to you, it's again not her problem. But somebody not understanding her reasons for changing her coach does not, in any way, justify or explain negativity towards her.

 

[Sugar Coated]

People keep saying Eteri only had 1 senior but didn’t Polina and Daria leave after Zhenya? So there were other seniors besides Alina when Zhenya made her decision.

I don’t think it’s so crazy to assume that Zhenya could see Eteri might be focusing her attention elsewhere for the next Olympic cycle. Clearly she knew the 3A were coming and I think it’s reasonable to assume that she would not be a main focus of the coaching team in the future without being explicitly told to retire.

It has to be extremely hard to have trained and sacrificed the way she did leading up to the olympics and then deliver two of her best performances only to have a training mate beat her. I think it would be hard for most people to return to that situation to train. It’s a constant reminder of her silver medal and she’s training with the person who got gold. Doesn’t mean she’s necessarily mad at Alina or Eteri, but she knows she won’t be able to effectively train to her best ability in that situation. So logically her options were to retire or go elsewhere.

 

[ancientpeas]

But maybe.. am I just not getting this? What other Russian coach could Evgenia go to other than Mishin who it would not seem that she had been cast aside by Eteri and seen as too weak to be worthy? Eteri is at the top of mountain. You can't go too far down otherwise your reputation suffers. I think she only had a handful of coaches she could go to who are seen Eteri's level and Brian, having coached Yuna Kim as well as Hanyu and Fernandez, is right up there. She could have gone to Raf or.. I'm kind of not coming up with another name here. Internationally renowned coach with a reputation for producing champions. If you don't stay with Eteri and you want to stay in that top echelon don't you have to go to a top coach? Aren't you choices very limited then? Evgenia, from what I understand, knows Yuzuru and Javi and other TCC skaters. She probably felt that of her other choices Brian would be a good fit for her. Besides Toronto has a huge ex-pat Russian community. It is not a bad place for a Russian to go to if they feel they have to leave Russia to train. Toronto is an incredibly diverse and multicultural city (a large city too) that is quite welcoming. Does it have the history and culture of Moscow? No of course not but it is not a bad choice for a Russian to live in if they they have to train with a top coach who is not Russian. I lived there for 2 years. Toronto is a great city with lots to do and see and it has a good public transportation system and several very nice museums. The people are also nice (although the nicest people in Canada are those on the east coast. My home town is kind of known for being a bit standoffish as we are a government city)