2019-20 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

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Firstly, I think she knows a lot more about the situation than we do. Secondly, everyone can talk about their experiences and only she can not talk about it?

P.S. I don't like when people look for negative subtext, especially when it’s not there.

It's not an experience - it's an indirect accusation of Eteri. If she did force her to retire why did not she say it directly. Why this, "well, that was my only choice - to leave Russia because I wanted to keep on skating".

But I don't believe her. I don't believe that Eteri told her to "go and give birth to children" unless it was an emotional exchange of two people when they say things that they don't mean. Did Eteri send Alina anywhere after she could not collect herself during the whole last season? Or she on the contrary supported her and made her stronger? Does not she still support Alina although she has 3A now and Valieva with Akatieva coming next? Would not it be easier to say: "you won it all, now let others win, go and give birth to children?"

I don't believe Zhenya on this one not that before she says it in plain words and Eteri confirms that it was really like that: she wrote-off Medvedeva as a competitive skater after the Olympics.

 

[nussnacker]

I hope that these people also see corruption when Kostornaya's lutz or Sherbakova's lutz get a higher scores than Tuktamysheva's lutz.

Kostornaia’s Lutz and Shcherbakova’s lutz are not the same thing as Medvedeva’s lutz. Period.

 

[micks]

I don't believe that Eteri told her to "go and give birth to children" unless it was an emotional exchange of two people when they say things that they don't mean.

I believe that something like that was. Especially after Tutberidze went on TV.

 

[micks]

Kostornaia’s Lutz and Shcherbakova’s lutz are not the same thing as Medvedeva’s lutz. Period.

Actually I compared their lutz with Tuktamysheva's lutz.

 

[nussnacker]

I believe that something like that was. Especially after Tutberidze went on TV.

For the record, it was Doug said that Eteri told her “to go have babies”, and he started those rumors, and then Evgenia herself had to go to the press to say none of this sort was said to her, and her coaches never told her to “go have babies” or retire.

 

[[email protected]]

I believe that something like that was. Especially after Tutberidze went on TV.

Then let us stay with our beliefs.

I have no clue - only those who were the part of it have. It just looks incredibly stupid to give up on your star student who was like family to you, after she won silver Olympic medal when the only other senior skater that she had was Alina who had a dramatic meltdown in Milano, whose puberty situation was unknown (Lipnitskaya, anyone?)

Stupid, and Eteri is anyone but stupid. She is proud, that is for sure. May be words were said by both of them. But that's the fact - Eteri wanted Zhenya to start training and Zhenya did not respond. Well, we have been through it many times. I think, moriel explained it all more than once. I wonder why Fluture is still surprised that there are grumpy Russians about this whole situation.

 

[Draculus]

It's not an experience - it's an indirect accusation of Eteri. If she did force her to retire why did not she say it directly. Why this, "well, that was my only choice - to leave Russia because I wanted to keep on skating".
But I don't believe her. I don't believe that Eteri told her to "go and give birth to children" unless it was an emotional exchange of two people when they say things that they don't mean.

Actually, you are not even putting words inside her mouth, you inserted thoughts in her brain. Zhenya's words about "only 2 options" could have much more meanings. F.e. Zhenia no longer trust Eteri that she can help her improve (or even sustain). It is not forcing to retire, it's just absence of trust to her mentor (and she has reasons). So, she exactly has only 2 options, retire or find someone else (continue to train with a couch whom you do not trust is not an option).
Or it could be something else. Why did you pick up your current understanding, did you consider other possibilities and if you did, why did you decide to go with this and accused Zhenia of accusing Eteri to force her to leave?

 

[ancientpeas]

your post

4 of the moderators are not Westerners. They'd probably be mildly insulted to be called that.

There is a old quote about compromise "You know you have achieved a good compromise when each person is equally unhappy with the decision". I'm sure there are similar quotes in other languages as it is a common refrain.

If people want to complain about how posts are moderated they need to take it to feedback forum or pm the site owner (try the feedback forum first). There is a time and place and that is it. No one is happy when they receive warnings or infractions. I don't think anyone says "Oooh.. that's exciting I got told that my post violated the rules and got removed!"

I think the hardest things about chatting and posting online (and I have been doing it since 1996- Before some users were even born.. I feel so old) is sarcasm, humour and tone are nearly impossible to detect. I know that I have said something to someone here and thought they would understand that I was teasing or joking around with them and they have been hurt or offended by what I said and I've had to apologize or explain it. I always feel terrible when it happens because when I hear it in my head (while I am typing) I know how I meant it. Throw in the fact that there are varying degrees of language skills (and believe me I am incredibly impressed by most non native English speakers ability to write and understand English) and things can often be confusing and easily misinterpreted.


The Russian Ladies thread is, I think, the busiest and, at times, most controversial thread on the board. It is great that so many of you are so excited and devoted to all the wonderful Russian ladies skating this season. It needs to be kept on topic as much as possible because if it goes off topic people coming in a day or two later have to weed through pages and pages of off topic stuff to find out what they came into the thread to find out: The state of Russian Ladies in 19-20 season.

But once again I am off topicing the thread to say "Please don't off topic the thread" which seems.. really, really annoying behaviour from me.

So just to be clear: Feedback forum to complain about mods and this thread to discuss all the fantastic Russian ladies.

 

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Actually, you are not even putting words inside her mouth, you inserted thoughts in her brain. Zhenya's words about "only 2 options" could have much more meanings. F.e. Zhenia no longer trust Eteri that she can help her improve (or even sustain). It is not forcing to retire, it's just absence of trust to her mentor (and she has reasons). So, she exactly has only 2 options, retire or find someone else (continue to train with a couch whom you do not trust is not an option).
Or it could be something else. Why did you pick up your current understanding, did you consider other possibilities and if you did, why did you decide to go with this and accused Zhenia of accusing Eteri to force her to leave?

These are her exact words: В принципе, я один путь и рассматривала. Точнее, два – либо все заканчивать, либо уезжать в Канаду. Решила в пользу Канады.

In principle, I considered only one way. 2 ways, exactly: either to finish with everything or to move to Canada. I decided in favor of Canada.

We don't know exactly. Well, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Eteri failed her trust? How exactly? Have you watched the Olympics, Eteri's reaction? Or you imply that Zhenya wanted Eteri to keep Alina in juniors. Eteri refused and that's how she failed her trust?

 

[Ziotic]

Did Eteri send Alina anywhere after she could not collect herself during the whole last season? Or she on the contrary supported her and made her stronger? Does not she still support Alina although she has 3A now and Valieva with Akatieva coming next? Would not it be easier to say: "you won it all, now let others win, go and give birth to children?"

.

I question this statement.

Last season Eteri had one Russian senior lady. She had been embarrassed by the breakup with Evgenia. She didn’t really have the luxury of sending Alina away without further embarrassment.

I would argue that Alina is the weakest she has ever been, only declining since winning the Olympics. Although she may have won worlds last year, she was clean while others faltered. Just as the case when she lost the year before. Jumps are unsuccessful more frequently and being called UR or with edge problems.

How is Eteri making her stronger? She’s done exactly what she did to Evgenia in the Olympic season, simplifies Alina’s jump content knowing her training mates are bring much superior technical content. Why does Alina no longer backload her combos? One more year and Alina will be in the same situation. Even if she wants to continue to compete, she’ll be buried by all those who are younger and with more technical ability.

 

[ancientpeas]

I personally support Evgeniya in her endeavours. I would lie, though, if I said that it's the same as it was before. Three things:

1. Her performance during CoR was the closest she could get to "previous Zhenya". It still could not give me the same shivers as her 2016 - 2017 programs did. But she is almost there, finally. What was since she started to work with Orser was "no, that's not it" for me.

2. It has nothing to do with Zhenya - it has do with her non-Russian fans. Somehow, most of those who comment on her now see only positive things as soon as she moved to Canada. It is a striking contrast to what was before that. Medvedeva's senior triumph was hinted first during Russian test skates in 2015. I digged the respective thread and found my comment:

"Outside Medvedeva (who is amazing) no one seems ready among the ladies".

After my post the following comments came, just the first five:

"She's probably just not my cup of tea. The SP is pretty bland and I don't really remember anything about it right now. The LP is better, but I don't like how slow she is (which so far she was in competitions too, so I don't think it's a test skate thing). For some reason, her fast arm movements, despite being rather nice themselves, make her lacking speed even more glaring to me".

"She's a nice skater, but she skates like a hybrid of Anna (jumps, lacking emotion) and Elena (arm flailing). Program was boring as tar. She has nice jumps and spins, but she really doesn't excite me. I hate to say it, because Evgenia seems like a great kid, but I don't see anything great about this program. However, she has all the tech, so hopefully the artistic side will come".

Cannot say the same about Evgenia, a skater I've never enjoyed as much as others have. Her program is nice, but a little boring. As for her skating, she's quite slow and her program lacks flow, something which is very noticeable when watching her live".

"Not the big fun of other girls, so, I just don't comment on them".

"Medvedeva: technically most prepared among Russian ladies. Artistically, her programs do not impress me at all, same as last season With her edge call problem of Lutz, this season might be a tough one for her. But if she keeps nailing her jumps competition after competition, she can certainly be a wild-card".

And that was the beginning of the season when she won everything but CoR where she lost only to Radionova.

3. Zhenya herself says things that I am not very comfortable with. Like in her latest interview she says that after the Olympics she had only 2 choices: retire or move out of Russia. This basically implies that Eteri gave up on her immediately after the games. I remember how embarassed Eteri looked, how Daniil was the only person who openly rejoiced after Alina's win. Therefore, this implied accusation does not go well with me. And there are other examples when I think that even if she believes in it it would be better if she did not share her beliefs with the world.

Sam.. a couple of things I'd like to say here *BTW.. I feel like I'm talking to myself because all my friends call me Sam* I have seen at least a few people accuse Evgenia of being a traitor for training in Canada. Are there people who only like her now because she left Russia? Yes I think you are correct. But please do not think that she hasn't lost fans because she left and trains in the west.

On the other hand I actually agree with you about Eteri and Olympics. I do think Eteri was at least equally happy to have have Evgenia win as to have Alina win (My feeling was she actually wanted Evgenia to win but that is just my feelings on watching her over the years with the two girls.. she might just have an excellent poker face or just be very professional) I also think Evgenia was a 17 year old who just lost the biggest event of her life after coming back from being injured. She was obviously very sad and upset and maybe she lashed out and things were said between her and Eteri (none of us were flies on the wall so we will never know) that could not be unsaid afterward. I think the issue for her was who did she go to in Russia after Eteri. I guess she could have gone to Mishin but from what most of you say there is no other coach other than those two who are at that level in Russia right now. Brian was a good choice for her in that.. if not Brian who else. She could have gone to Raf I guess or one of the Japanese coaches but I think she felt that she already had a connection at TCC because of Hanyu and Javi. I don't know if this is just very "western" of me but it sort of feels like this was Evgenia's version of going away to college. She was very brave to leave everything she knew and come to a different country and try something new. It could have been a spectacular failure. Brian is not the correct coach for everyone. She took a risk and she seems happy and in the end as a fan of Evgenia herself that is what I hope for for her. Will she ever have Alexandra's technical prowess? No. But she can become the most well rounded and strong Evgenia she can is capable of being.

Also I think why some people like Evgenia more now than when she was 15 is just that she has matured and grown as an artist. She would have done so if she had stayed with Eteri too. It might have looked a little different but she was not the same skater at 15 that she was at 17 even. Experience is the best teacher. More people enjoy Alina's skating this year because she too has become more artistic and expressive. She took a different route and has stayed with Eteri and yet the maturity is still there and she is gaining more fans. Carolina Kostner was not Carolina Kostner as we think of her at 16 who she became at 21 or 24 or 28. If Eteri was to call me on the phone and ask me for advice (as if she ever would she knows way more about skating and winning than I ever will) I'd say that I'd love to see her encourage Daniil to work with other choreographers like Lori or David or Shae lynn or Misha Ge or really anyone because I feel like he is capable of producing really, really excellent work but I think he could benefit from more collaboration. Conversely it would nice to see if Lori or David or any of the others could also learn from him. I think artists grow through collaboration.

 

[micks]

Actually, you are not even putting words inside her mouth, you inserted thoughts in her brain. Zhenya's words about "only 2 options" could have much more meanings. F.e. Zhenia no longer trust Eteri that she can help her improve (or even sustain). It is not forcing to retire, it's just absence of trust to her mentor (and she has reasons). So, she exactly has only 2 options, retire or find someone else (continue to train with a couch whom you do not trust is not an option).
Or it could be something else. Why did you pick up your current understanding, did you consider other possibilities and if you did, why did you decide to go with this and accused Zhenia of accusing Eteri to force her to leave?

Yes. Tutberidze: "Either you train with me or nowhere." Very likely.

Tutberidze spoke of the conditions put forward, which she did not accept.

Possible dialogue:
Evgenia: "I have several conditions to continue training."
Eteri: "Forget about its. Only my conditions."

 

[Lechat]

I question this statement.

Last season Eteri had one Russian senior lady. She had been embarrassed by the breakup with Evgenia. She didn’t really have the luxury of sending Alina away without further embarrassment.

I would argue that Alina is the weakest she has ever been, only declining since winning the Olympics. Although she may have won worlds last year, she was clean while others faltered. Just as the case when she lost the year before. Jumps are unsuccessful more frequently and being called UR or with edge problems.

How is Eteri making her stronger? She’s done exactly what she did to Evgenia in the Olympic season, simplifies Alina’s jump content knowing her training mates are bring much superior technical content. Why does Alina no longer backload her combos? One more year and Alina will be in the same situation. Even if she wants to continue to compete, she’ll be buried by all those who are younger and with more technical ability.

You can’t predict, everything can happen. Alina the weakest ? Are you kidding ? It’s not because you can’t land a quad or a 3A means you are weak.

 

[skatingfan200]

Then let us stay with our beliefs.

I have no clue - only those who were the part of it have. It just looks incredibly stupid to give up on your star student who was like family to you, after she won silver Olympic medal when the only other senior skater that she had was Alina who had a dramatic meltdown in Milano, whose puberty situation was unknown (Lipnitskaya, anyone?)

Stupid, and Eteri is anyone but stupid. She is proud, that is for sure. May be words were said by both of them. But that's the fact - Eteri wanted Zhenya to start training and Zhenya did not respond. Well, we have been through it many times. I think, moriel explained it all more than once. I wonder why Fluture is still surprised that there are grumpy Russians about this whole situation.

Eteri at this time knew already that the Rusfed have given the okay for the coaching change. Zhenya was given the okay to speak to Orser.

Family but a telephone interview like that? I find two lies and one manipulation and until today it worked by some.

Lies "alina junior" and "I did not know until match-tv article"
Mainpulation "Zhenya does not answer my text-messages". But at this time, Zhenya was already in negotiations with Orser.

Eteri failed her trust? How exactly? Have you watched the Olympics, Eteri's reaction? Or you imply that Zhenya wanted Eteri to keep Alina in juniors. Eteri refused and that's how she failed her trust?

She failed her trust because of the wrong decision regarding her injury in the Grand Prix season+ layout did not change.

 

[[email protected]]

I question this statement.

Last season Eteri had one Russian senior lady. She had been embarrassed by the breakup with Evgenia. She didn’t really have the luxury of sending Alina away without further embarrassment.

I would argue that Alina is the weakest she has ever been, only declining since winning the Olympics. Although she may have won worlds last year, she was clean while others faltered. Just as the case when she lost the year before. Jumps are unsuccessful more frequently and being called UR or with edge problems.

How is Eteri making her stronger? She’s done exactly what she did to Evgenia in the Olympic season, simplifies Alina’s jump content knowing her training mates are bring much superior technical content. Why does Alina no longer backload her combos? One more year and Alina will be in the same situation. Even if she wants to continue to compete, she’ll be buried by all those who are younger and with more technical ability.

There are 2 separate things: objective state of an athlete and the relationship between the coach and the student. Alina grew 9 cm last year. That was the main reason of her problems: puberty. Lack of backloading, well it's "Zagitova rule" - why bother? And as for the relationships, Alina herself said that she was ready to give up, in fact twice: when she first came to Eteri with flowers and during the last season. Both times Eteri said: let's try it one more time.

It's not a specific problem of Zhenya, Alina, etc. - it's the new crops of super talented girls with 3 max quota. You can go to Orser, to whoever. You won't bypass this 3 only quota as long as you skate for Russia So, moving to Orser solved nothing unless we hear one day: my only choice was either stop skating or...censored

 

[Alex65]

Please! A new theme especially for you! Take advantage and leave this topic for the rest of the Russian ladies.

Medvedevа, Tutberidze - drama. Again and again.

ОТ: Added: I really tried to create a new topic, but for some reason that was not clear to me, it lasted only one minute.

 

[[email protected]]

She failed her trust because of the wrong decision regarding her injury in the Grand Prix season+ layout did not change.

I saw her attempting new layout during the test skates of 2017. It just did not work - she was not like herself. Instead of OG silver it could end up in a full collapse same as we saw throughout the last season.

 

[nussnacker]

I question this statement.

Last season Eteri had one Russian senior lady. She had been embarrassed by the breakup with Evgenia. She didn’t really have the luxury of sending Alina away without further embarrassment.

I would argue that Alina is the weakest she has ever been, only declining since winning the Olympics. Although she may have won worlds last year, she was clean while others faltered. Just as the case when she lost the year before. Jumps are unsuccessful more frequently and being called UR or with edge problems.

How is Eteri making her stronger? She’s done exactly what she did to Evgenia in the Olympic season, simplifies Alina’s jump content knowing her training mates are bring much superior technical content. Why does Alina no longer backload her combos? One more year and Alina will be in the same situation. Even if she wants to continue to compete, she’ll be buried by all those who are younger and with more technical ability.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnAV1Y4GQuw

 

[Fluture]

I personally support Evgeniya in her endeavours. I would lie, though, if I said that it's the same as it was before. Three things:

1. Her performance during CoR was the closest she could get to "previous Zhenya". It still could not give me the same shivers as her 2016 - 2017 programs did. But she is almost there, finally. What was since she started to work with Orser was "no, that's not it" for me.

2. It has nothing to do with Zhenya - it has do with her non-Russian fans. Somehow, most of those who comment on her now see only positive things as soon as she moved to Canada. It is a striking contrast to what was before that. Medvedeva's senior triumph was hinted first during Russian test skates in 2015. I digged the respective thread and found my comment:

"Outside Medvedeva (who is amazing) no one seems ready among the ladies".

After my post the following comments came, just the first five:

"She's probably just not my cup of tea. The SP is pretty bland and I don't really remember anything about it right now. The LP is better, but I don't like how slow she is (which so far she was in competitions too, so I don't think it's a test skate thing). For some reason, her fast arm movements, despite being rather nice themselves, make her lacking speed even more glaring to me".

"She's a nice skater, but she skates like a hybrid of Anna (jumps, lacking emotion) and Elena (arm flailing). Program was boring as tar. She has nice jumps and spins, but she really doesn't excite me. I hate to say it, because Evgenia seems like a great kid, but I don't see anything great about this program. However, she has all the tech, so hopefully the artistic side will come".

Cannot say the same about Evgenia, a skater I've never enjoyed as much as others have. Her program is nice, but a little boring. As for her skating, she's quite slow and her program lacks flow, something which is very noticeable when watching her live".

"Not the big fun of other girls, so, I just don't comment on them".

"Medvedeva: technically most prepared among Russian ladies. Artistically, her programs do not impress me at all, same as last season With her edge call problem of Lutz, this season might be a tough one for her. But if she keeps nailing her jumps competition after competition, she can certainly be a wild-card".

And that was the beginning of the season when she won everything but CoR where she lost only to Radionova.

3. Zhenya herself says things that I am not very comfortable with. Like in her latest interview she says that after the Olympics she had only 2 choices: retire or move out of Russia. This basically implies that Eteri gave up on her immediately after the games. I remember how embarassed Eteri looked, how Daniil was the only person who openly rejoiced after Alina's win. Therefore, this implied accusation does not go well with me. And there are other examples when I think that even if she believes in it it would be better if she did not share her beliefs with the world.

Well, my point was not that everyone has to support her or that everyone necessarily does. If you don't support her like before, that's your opinion and you have a right to that. (as long as you don't openly attack her) What I was talking about, however, was how a certain type of people always likes to make it seem as if the Russian fans generally opposed her. Which might be true in some cases but does not represent the Russian fans as a whole. (well, duh, there are too many to generalize them like that anyway). We've seen the audience being on their feet for Zhenya during at least four competitions since her move to Canada, applauding, cheering and showering her with love. This is enough for me to say that while there might be some who "turned away" from her for whatever reasons, there are still many more who love and support her like they did before. I don't doubt that there are some crazy fans who actively hate her, I don't doubt there are some who are more "leniently negative" towards her. But that's the case for every athlete out there and I'd prefer not to give these people too much room for their negativity. That's all.

1. This is the case for you, it's your interpretations and it's fine. You got more shivers with "previous Zhenya". You thought this was the closest she got to "previous Zhenya". Good for you! It may be surprising (or not) that what I thought, was vastly different. For me, her performance at Rostelecom was just as emotional, maybe more so than "previous Zhenya". And I thought that this was the farest away she has ever been from "previous Zhenya". And I liked it. Not because I did not like the kind of skater and person she was when she was with Eteri. (I did) But because, for me, it was a sign that she had truly grown as a person and as an artist. I applaud her for that. For me it is "that's it!". For you it isn't. And? For me Liza's programs aren't "it". Neither are Sasha's. Do I have to be negative towards them for that? I don't see any reasons.

2. This is certainly an interesting point you made here. I do agree that there will be some who outright hate Eteri and are therefor glad for every opportunity to bash her. This, however, I would not consider a real Zhenya fan as they only use her for their own agenda. On the other hand, however, this is, as far as I have seen, not the majority. I am trying to say it as diplomatically as possible: I sometimes have a feeling that you are so into this "we vs. them" sort of thinking that you perceive many things as attacks where there aren't any. The quotes you listed here are just opinions about Zhenya's skating when she was with Eteri. Nothing more, nothing less. Even if the people who made these comments were to now have come to like Evgenia, that is completely valid. Opinions change and this is something natural and does not have to be sinister at all. And so what if some did not like Evgenia's skating style when she was with Eteri? I liked the miming, many didn't. And? Those will like her new style more. Is that a problem? Is there something wrong with expressing that? Does it make them "anti-Eteri"? There are many ways to become a fan of someone and just because you consider one as the "ultimately true way" does not mean it has to be the same for everyone. I know many fans who were not fans of Evgenia before she made exactly that change in moving to Canada. But them coming to like her had nothing to do with Eteri but rather with seeing a young woman strive for what she wants, being brave enough to explore the unknown and risk being subjected to intense hate and criticism. This is a human response and it is something people like, root for. It may be something you do not understand but people are different after all and they have different interpretations.

3. Now, this is the argument I have the most problems with and I'll tell you why. For me many interpretations are valid and I accept that people are different. But this part of the comment almost made me angry. You see in my opinion, there is NO implication whatsoever that Eteri gave up on Zhenya. On the contrary, Zhenya made it very clear that she was talking about HER body, HER mind and HER choices. Nobody else's. Saying that the only way Zhenya (or anybody else) would make a change was if the person "in charge of them" made up their minds and gave up on them does not sit right with me. It's as if skaters and athletes can only change coaches if their coach has given up on them before. Does that sound logical to you? To me it sounds ridiculous. In fact, it happens everyday that people decide to leave a situation they're in because they're feeling uncomfortable and unhappy. There don't need to be any "reasons" other than their own personal state of mind and feelings and they certainly shouldn't be blamed for that. Zhenya said there were two options for HER personally based on the way SHE ALONE felt. Eteri giving up on her or not has nothing to do with that.

In addition since I've seen the next post of yours on the subject too. Saying Evgenia implied in any way whatsoever that Eteri told her to go have babies with her statement is not only deliberately misinterpretating her interview but comes close to something worse than that. Especially since Evgenia has stated very clearly before that this rumour was not true and nothing like this was ever said or had any influence on her decisions whatsoever. I would consider re-writing that because it goes too far. That's not an opinion anymore, it's putting words in her mouth that have never been said by her in any way.

 

[[email protected]]

Please! A new theme especially for you! Take advantage and leave this topic for the rest of the Russian ladies.

Medvedev, Tutberidze - drama. Again and again.

As long as people keep writing: "I for example can‘t understand why there would be any negativity whatsoever towards her" I shall reply. May be because for me it was an emotional thing as well.