2020–21 Canadian Figure Skating

[rollerblade]

Help me find a picture of messages between Keegan and Nam. They were talking about pairs, where one asked "is 150 a good score for pairs?" .... neither of them know the answer, and one of them said "we are so uneducated".

I saw it somewhere on the day pairs FS happened, but can't remember where; and I can't find it again. Those 2 are so funny!

 

[Colonel Green]

Maybe unpopular opinion, but I think Canada should skip WTT. Roman said in his video that they can’t send anyone from Worlds since the 2 week quarantine when they get back, so other than Nam and Roman there isn’t very many strong skaters left. Is it worth risking their health in the middle of a pandemic for a useless tournament?

Sending skaters to Japan is a lot less risky than sending them to Sweden; I have way more trust in the Japanese public health authorities.

It's not an important tournament and we're definitely not going to win anything there, but it's a dose of international competition for skaters who haven't had any in 13-14 months.

 

[4everchan]

on this day, in 2003, Bourne and Kraatz became the first North American ice dance world champions

 

[kenboy123]

Seems unnecessary

especially now...are they really going to make them go???...

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

Sending skaters to Japan is a lot less risky than sending them to Sweden; I have way more trust in the Japanese public health authorities.

It's not an important tournament and we're definitely not going to win anything there, but it's a dose of international competition for skaters who haven't had any in 13-14 months.

Don't underestimate our ability to win the all important spirit award, lol. They have to have some kind of kiss and cry, its the essence of the event

 

[ladyjane]

on this day, in 2003, Bourne and Kraatz became the first North American ice dance world champions

I remember it well. It was a fantastic Skate (one of those I still watch every so often). In fact I even remember their exhibition because of the hydroblade movements which were superb.

 

[ladyjane]

Couldn't find the Worlds exhibition but here's the one from 4CC in the same year. It's got all those great moves!

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[4everchan]

omg with Enigma (the music) lol... this brings up memories

 

[fzztsimmons]

Can I just say that I really liked the caption on Paul's instagram post about their win -
"we did it [bronze medal] now more".
It's just great to see that they have a fire lit underneath them and actually, you know what, they are very much in contention for that Olympic Bronze medal, and I am glad to see they are ready to fight for it!!

 

[chuckm]

Papadakis/Cizeron will be back for the Olympics, which means everyone else moves back one placement.

 

[4everchan]

Papadakis/Cizeron will be back for the Olympics, which means everyone else moves back one placement.

even if that were to be true, momentum in Ice dance is everything. Right now, two teams have momentum. The Russians by finishing 1st in both segments and Piper and Paul arriving placed 7th at previous worlds, moving up to 4th in the RD and then 2nd in the FD, almost edging Maddie and Zack for the silver... I think teams who need to worry the most are both American teams, Stepanova-Bukin and the Italians.

 

[fzztsimmons]

Papadakis/Cizeron will be back for the Olympics, which means everyone else moves back one placement.

Yep, it's clear that Gold and Silver are claimed, the narrative is in motion for P/C vs S/K for the top two spots. However, after this worlds I think bronze is wide open, and probably between G/P and the two american teams. Maybe S/B is in there as well, but I think Russia are going to put all their politicking weight behind S/K at the expense of their other team.

Prior to Worlds I would have considered either C/B or H/D certs for bronze but now I think it's much more interesting.
H/D and C/B keep flip flopping around, and honestly I think the USFS needs to choose one and run with it, otherwise they both run the risk of being overtaken by G/P who Canada are going to have their full political support behind.

Both H/D and C/B have weaknesses that G/P can capitalise - H/D have the superior skating skills but terrible packaging/programmes and still seem to be struggling with their identity. C/B have poor skating skills but superb packaging that capitalises on Maddie being on her skates as little as possible. G/P have good skating skills and good programmes. They finished within 0.40 of the silver medal here!! Plus they're setting a trend of doing well in the free dance - they beat both H/D and C/B in the free dance here, and beat H/D twice in the free last season (4 Conts and Skate Canada). And the judges really went with them here on the GOE, much more than at 4CC.

The key for Piper & Paul will be having a great set of programmes (which I know they've already started working on so fingers crossed) - but right now I think momentum could be doing good things for them.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Both H/D and C/B have weaknesses that G/P can capitalise - H/D have the superior skating skills but terrible packaging/programmes and still seem to be struggling with their identity. C/B have poor skating skills but superb packaging that capitalises on Maddie being on her skates as little as possible. G/P have good skating skills and good programmes. They finished within 0.40 of the silver medal here!! Plus they're setting a trend of doing well in the free dance - they beat both H/D and C/B in the free dance here, and beat H/D twice in the free last season (4 Conts and Skate Canada). And the judges really went with them here on the GOE, much more than at 4CC.

The key for Piper & Paul will be having a great set of programmes (which I know they've already started working on so fingers crossed) - but right now I think momentum could be doing good things for them.

Completely agree, especially regarding the importance of choreo (and C/B's strategy of endless mini lifts...) G/P are beginning to remind me of the Shibutanis in the sense that they're finally moving into striking distance after so many years. Really curious (and slightly nervous) to see what programmes they have in store for us...

 

[Colonel Green]

even if that were to be true, momentum in Ice dance is everything. Right now, two teams have momentum. The Russians by finishing 1st in both segments and Piper and Paul arriving placed 7th at previous worlds, moving up to 4th in the RD and then 2nd in the FD, almost edging Maddie and Zack for the silver... I think teams who need to worry the most are both American teams, Stepanova-Bukin and the Italians.

Among the top teams I would say Hubbell & Donohue have momentum as well, having reversed what was looking like a terminal descent last season and overtaking their domestic rivals. But in their case they're probably by default in the top three spot and unlikely to go higher than that.

One thing that Skate Canada and the coaches will need to plan for is the world rankings heading into the Olympics. Piper & Paul's weakness is the RD, this isn't news, and they need to make sure they're in the final flight of the RD if there's going to be any chance of medaling. There are currently seven top teams in dance, but only room for five of them in the final flight at the Olympics.

Papadakis & Cizeron are actually going to be buried in quite a deep hole at the start of next season in the WS, due to how many events they've missed (literally they'll be 1000 points behind Gilles & Poirier, who will be third in the standings at that point behind Chock & Bates and Sinitsina & Katsalapov). And if we were just talking about the Challenger/Grand Prix circuit in the fall, it'd be impossible for P/C to claw their way back from that. But they, like the Russian and Italian teams, have the ace in the hole of Euros, whereas the North American teams don't typically attend Four Continents in an Olympic year.

This time, Piper & Paul may have to consider that, depending on how things run. At an absolute minimum they need to do two Challengers (this is all assuming we get something akin to a normal fall season).

 

[chuckm]

You're forgetting that Chock/Bates lost a lot of training time this season because Maddy had suffered a concussion, and they had to sit out Skate America, and then lost their US title to H/D. So it was not that surprising that C/B had some mistakes in their FD and weren't quite as effective as they had been the previous season when they won silver behind P/C in the GPF.

No doubt their mistakes in the worlds FD were a result of so much missed ice time. It isn't a matter of the US 'backing' one team over the other, but the team's performance on the ice. Maybe Canada politics for their #1 team, but then their #1 is clear, which isn't the case in the US. Politicking always seemed like backroom dealing to me.

If Worlds 2020 hadn't been cancelled, I think C/B would easily have passed H/D for a medal, because H/D's programs last season were bad. That's why H/D had a new FD this season and reworked the RD.

Chock / Bates were third on the Seasons Best scores for 2019-20, and 5th in 2018-2019. G/P just won their first world medal, while C/B have won two: silver in 2015 and bronze in 2016. They have won 4 Continents gold twice, in 2019 and 2020; and also won silver in 2015 and 2016 and bronze in 2013 and 2017. G/P have never been 4CC champions, and have two silvers, in 2020 and 2014 (when C/B didn't go) and a bronze in 2019. C/B have made it to 5 GPFs and won silver in 3 of them; they have amassed 12 GP medals, including 3 gold, 7 silver and 2 bronze. G/P have made it to 2 GPFs, but won no medals. G/P have 10 GP medals: 1 gold, 4 silvers and 5 bronze.

So I'd say Chock / Bates have done quite well for themselves despite having such "poor skating skills".

 

[Osmond4gold]

You're forgetting that Chock/Bates lost a lot of training time this season because Maddy had suffered a concussion, and they had to sit out Skate America, and then lost their US title to H/D. So it was not that surprising that C/B had some mistakes in their FD and weren't quite as effective as they had been the previous season when they won silver behind P/C in the GPF.

No doubt their mistakes in the worlds FD were a result of so much missed ice time. It isn't a matter of the US 'backing' one team over the other, but the team's performance on the ice. Maybe Canada politics for their #1 team, but then their #1 is clear, which isn't the case in the US. Politicking always seemed like backroom dealing to me.

If Worlds 2020 hadn't been cancelled, I think C/B would easily have passed H/D for a medal, because H/D's programs last season were bad. That's why H/D had a new FD this season and reworked the RD.

Of course, no other Team except for Chock/Bates, lost training time in 2020/21. Nothing against these Teams as they are all great, but your excuse is lame, Chuckm, esp. after performing the Snake for 2 seasons. Gilles and Poirier have been underestimated for years, and are finally getting the recognition they have earned. Looks like some may be uncomfortable with this reality.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

So I'd say Chock / Bates have done quite well for themselves despite having such "poor skating skills".

Not arguing with that.

 

[chuckm]

C/B were not only off the ice , but they could not even practice on the floor because of Madison's concussion, which happened in late summer. Maybe other teams lost ice time, but they could still practice in some way. They were in top shape last season, having won silver at the GPF and 4CC and were in prime position for a world medal, but then Worlds was cancelled.

Nearly ALL the teams were repeating programs from last year---including G/P. The one team that didn't was H/D, and they beat G/P for silver.

I did a quick calculation of the WR once the 18/19 data is scrubbed and the 19/20 data is reduced to 70% of its current value.

Here's the top 24 at the start of the season:

2639​	CHOCK / BATES	USA
2608​	SINITSINA / KATSALAPOV	RUS
2359​	GILLES / POIRIER	CAN
2290​	HUBBELL / DONOHUE	USA
2011​	GUIGNARD / FABBRI	ITA
1923​	STEPANOVA / BUKIN	RUS
1797​	FEAR / GIBSON	GBR
1539​	HURTADO / KHALIAVIN	ESP
1502​	WANG / LIU	CHN
1427​	FOURNIER-BEAUDRY / SORENSEN	CAN
1414​	HAWAYEK / BAKER	USA
1369​	PAPADAKIS / CIZERON	FRA
1179​	ZAGORSKI / GUERREIRO	RUS
1111​	KALISZEK / SPODYRIEV	POL
1019​	SMART / DIAZ	ESP
977​	REED / AMBRULEVICIUS	LTU
904​	SOUCISSE / FIRUS	CAN
896​	KAZAKOVA / REVIYA	GEO
865​	GALYAVIEVA / THAURON	FRA
853​	LAJOIE / LAGHA	CAN
735​	NAZAROVA / NIKITIN	UKR
729​	CARREIRA / PONOMARENKO	USA
668​	MUELLER / DIECK	GER
657​	SHANAEVA / NARYZHNYY	RUS

 

[4everchan]

i think medals pre 2018 are great but do not matter as much.... A lot of things have changed since then... I mean if we did look at those years we should consider asking Weaver and Poje to come back on the circuit With the way this quad is turning out, not having worlds in 2020 really makes a huge break in the cycle. 2021 and the upcoming GP circuit (and challengers) will matter much more than anything else that happened before in terms of momentum and body of work. I agree that Europeans may help European teams in terms of WS ... that's something that will need consideration for ALL North American teams.

 

[fzztsimmons]

You're forgetting that Chock/Bates lost a lot of training time this season because Maddy had suffered a concussion, and they had to sit out Skate America, and then lost their US title to H/D. So it was not that surprising that C/B had some mistakes in their FD and weren't quite as effective as they had been the previous season when they won silver behind P/C in the GPF.

No doubt their mistakes in the worlds FD were a result of so much missed ice time. It isn't a matter of the US 'backing' one team over the other, but the team's performance on the ice. Maybe Canada politics for their #1 team, but then their #1 is clear, which isn't the case in the US. Politicking always seemed like backroom dealing to me.

If Worlds 2020 hadn't been cancelled, I think C/B would easily have passed H/D for a medal, because H/D's programs last season were bad. That's why H/D had a new FD this season and reworked the RD.

Chock / Bates were third on the Seasons Best scores for 2019-20, and 5th in 2018-2019. G/P just won their first world medal, while C/B have won two: silver in 2015 and bronze in 2016. They have won 4 Continents gold twice, in 2019 and 2020; and also won silver in 2015 and 2016 and bronze in 2013 and 2017. G/P have never been 4CC champions, and have two silvers, in 2020 and 2014 (when C/B didn't go) and a bronze in 2019. C/B have made it to 5 GPFs and won silver in 3 of them; they have amassed 12 GP medals, including 3 gold, 7 silver and 2 bronze. G/P have made it to 2 GPFs, but won no medals. G/P have 10 GP medals: 1 gold, 4 silvers and 5 bronze.

So I'd say Chock / Bates have done quite well for themselves despite having such "poor skating skills".

I'm not saying they haven't - Chock/Bates are exceptionally talented, hence considering them one of the three front runners for the Bronze. But I also don't think it's unfair to point out that from a technical skating skills POV they are not the best in the field. They don't have the depth of edges, flow, knee bend and speed as H/D. I don't think that's particularly controversial to say. However, what they do well is developing incredibly complex choreographed programmes and fantastic lifts. I mean the snake charmer FD is a masterpiece and I can't even begin to imagine how much strength it takes to carry off their first lift for example. They know what works for them and they capitalise on it - It's the same as Jason Brown who squeezes out every point he can from GOE and PCS to make up for the lack of quads.

My point was now having seen these Worlds, it feels more like a potential three-way battle, which is exciting. Ice-dance can often feel pre-determined, and even the commentators noted how rare it is to see a real shift in standings.

As others have said, the big thing for G/P is going to be nailing that Rhythm Dance, as that's really their weakest point. I don't know what the pattern dance and rhythms is for next season, can anyone fill me in?