2020-21 Japanese Nationals: Men's Free Skate

[Interspectator]

This is Yuzu and Stephane during ice shows. So they are friendly and have known each other for years. Though I agree that this year, there should not be hugging.

 

[1111bm]

I don't recall every single one of the posts in this thread so I might be wrong, but save for maybe one post I didn't get the impression posters were complaining about the music itself so much as the choreo/interpretation or Yuzu's involvement in the choreo/presentation?

And for instance, I did complain about Yuzu's SP music (in the SP thread) and how mainstream and flat/uniform I find it musically, and it doesn't get more western and more pop than that . I also called Shoma's LP song derogatively 'emo' .

 

[jersey1302]

I can not believe how good Yuzuru looked all event. For someone who hasnt comepeted in that long getting over 300.. oh my gosh!! LET ME ENTERTAIN YOU!!! ok omg he so did. and his FS was just as invcredible. I cant help but gush. I am so happy he looks so renewed. Was he perfect? No.. (which is scary because he still got above 300..way above 300. His eyes at the start of that free skate told the world he was ready for business. It reminded me of Ronda Rousey at the entrance of her fights where she looked like she was going to murder anyone who stepped in her way. ACKKK SO GOOD!

 

[TallyT]

Japanese fans have - not surprisingly - been analysing the symbolism and historical echoes, and the story in Yuzu's piece, visually, musically and in his movements: as usual it is anything but simple and his public there will get it even if we ethnocentric westerners don't. In the meantime, he will concentrate on refining and deepening - and maximising score-wise, as he does.

By the way, there is only apparently one episode of the TV series still in existence, the 50th and for the person (sorry, I can't recall who?) who wondered why the light blue kimono costume for a samurai god of war figure? it does have strong blue/sky&clouds symbolism. And the birds are from Uesugi Kenshin's family crest.

 

[Likeadream]

I enjoyed the competition a lot. I liked Yuma and Keji the most among human skaters.Yuzuru for me is from another planet, this new free in some moments is like watching a theatrical piece. Every coreographic movement and jump matches a significant moment in the music or a particular sound of these japanese instruments. The crescendo of the music into the 4T3T is emotionally engaging.

 

[hurrah]

Hanyu is portraying Uesugi Kenshin here, an overlord during the Warring States Period of Japan when Japan had no centralized government and different regions were being controlled by different overlords. In Japan, this historical period is well-remembered in part-fictionalized novels and historical dramas.

Uesugi Kenshin is particularly remembered as someone who was a very capable administrator, well-loved by his subjects.

He is also known for having been a very capable warrior and for greatly respecting his rivals. One famous example of this is him sending a shipment of salt to his greatest rival at the time, Takeda Shingen. Takeda's clan had little access to salt and had to always import salt from elsewhere, and when Uesugi heard that Takeda was denied a shipment of salt from another rival overlord, Hojo, he sent it to them instead, knowing full-well that he was throwing him a lifeline. He supposedly famously said 'I do not fight with salt, but with the sword.'

Another characteristic of Uesugi that is well-known is his femininity. Uesugi never married, and there is some speculation that he was gay or even a woman, because he was also very cultured as well, engaging in artistic pursuits like poetry-writing and what not. Actually, being gay, or more accurately, being bi-sexual at the time was considered a masculine ideal at the time. Japanese men at the time were like the Greeks. You had to be able to engage fully with both sexes, both emotionally and physically, to be the ideal man. Be that as it may, Uesugi is considered to have leaned a bit more on the feminine side than his cohorts.

So, the fact that Yuzuru is seen depicting fighting scenes in a floral getup where he also expresses pathos at how things are makes complete sense.

 

[Cicero]

I wouldn't say I could understand the emotional part behind each program just from the music and choreo, never in my ability to do so. But just for the technical part, I do felt some deja vu when watching Hanyu's new programs, well actually rewatched it multiple times. It's not that they're the same, but some of the entries to a jump or steps between technical elements are exactly the same he'd used before in other programs. The hydroblade and layback ina bauer are "his moves" so those don't count, but for each of his old programs there're something unique, like the spead eagle after 4S of otonal, where he added a raised arm like birds I think, something I didn't see much in Let me entertain you. H&E are better in that regards, you can definitely identified sword dancing, but overall these new programs are void in some way, with too many crossovers (compared with HIS old programs).
I was worried that the distant choreo and self training wouldn't work... until I saw some of his other debuts. It seems that they added a lot of elements after the first reveal. It's understandable to cut some of the difficulties at the beginning when there's so many uncertainty this season, so hopefully these programs will become better and better.
（I guess we are in a way spoiled, no argument when Daniil G choreo similar programs LOL）

 

[Cicero]

But the skating was awesome!



I suspect that for both Yuzu and Rika especially (and it will be the same for the Canadian, Korean and other skaters with new programs we have yet to see) a lot of folk have a mental jar over the fact that it's nearly the new year and it's the first time we've seen them. Normally, this would have been months ago when our expectations are set to early days... by this time, they would have competed several times, done a lot of work and brought the programs added levels. We do know the situation this year but for some it's mentally like stepping on an expected step that isn't there.

(For me, like I said above it was awesome and will get more so. I cannot wait. And I have to.)

Not saying I don't like it. I've literally rewatched it so many times that I almost memorize the video. But I still believe that he can do more, because according to his past performances, he definitely can. Not to mention the visible improvement in those jumps, I was so relieved when he landed all of them without obvious mistake, unlike all those skaters before him that day, which made people suspect if there was something wrong with the ice. It's so inspiring to see someone get back from the dark time and rise again, and I imagine it much harder than the way he said it in the interview.
Now that you mentioned, Rika's FS also have the same problem (reminds me of Trusova's FS last season), hence the relatively low PCS. My guess is that they cut it to boost the success rate of 4S. Once that's stable, I hope we'll be expecting a more complete program like her SP.

 

[TallyT]

Not saying I don't like it. I've literally rewatched it so many times that I almost memorize the video. But I still believe that he can do more, because according to his past performances, he definitely can. Not to mention the visible improvement in those jumps, I was so relieved when he landed all of them without obvious mistake, unlike all those skaters before him that day, which made people suspect if there was something wrong with the ice. It's so inspiring to see someone get back from the dark time and rise again, and I imagine it much harder than the way he said it in the interview.
Now that you mentioned, Rika's FS also have the same problem (reminds me of Trusova's FS last season), hence the relatively low PCS. My guess is that they cut it to boost the success rate of 4S. Once that's stable, I hope we'll be expecting a more complete program like her SP.

Yuzuru's like the finest of fine wines, we should have faith that both programs will mature into something rich and truly amazing if he keeps them for next year/possible Olympics. Yes, I'm starry-eyed, but after all, this was the equivalent of his usual ACI opener. Who else in their first outing for 10 months, with new untested programs, stingy-across-the-board judges and all the rest they've had to deal with, could hope to earn those sort of scores? And let's not forget how Shoma, after everything he had to go through last year and his own pandemic-related problems this one, did so splendidly. I am so so so proud of them both.

 

[hurrah]

Anywhoo, the judges didn't seem to have any difficulties seeing the merits of Yuzu's program, so there's that.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I think there is a valid point to suggesting that Yuzuru's programme may not be as well-received by international audiences (or at least the historical references might not be appreciated as much). However it's up to him whether to cater to a resolutely Euro/Americentric audience or to the more open-minded fans (Asians or non-Asians who don't mind learning more about other cultures). He may sacrifice some points in return for a personally meaningful programme, but at this stage in his career it doesn't really matter.

I would compare the situation to Javier Fernandez doing Charlie Chaplin, the Barber of Seville, Guys and Dolls and Man of La Mancha. People who grew up watching Broadway musicals and Western opera can appreciate the distinctions between these programmes. It was less obvious for me because I didn't have that cultural background (though I love Javi for his charm). However I learnt to sense the different characters over time and anyway they didn't interfere with my enjoyment of the programmes.

Seimei and Heaven & Earth are at least as different as the above. The FS fanbase is now very much international and it's only fair that programmes reflect these widening perspectives. Madame Butterfly, Miss Saigon, Turandot - Orientalist Western warhorses that push the Dragon Lady/Porcelain Doll trope. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon - fun wuxia flick but no particularly deep meaning. I enjoy these programmes but have to disconnect mentally from their storylines.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Oop - someone moved my post? It was in the 'Thoughts on...' thread that degenerated into a shouting match...

I don't recall every single one of the posts in this thread so I might be wrong, but save for maybe one post I didn't get the impression posters were complaining about the music itself so much as the choreo/interpretation or Yuzu's involvement in the choreo/presentation?

Yeah, that one poster (whose argument I was addressing in the above post) was the main source of controversy. There were more posts but they seem to have disappeared.
The programme is a work in progress, but subject matter/music is fine.

 

[gsk8]

When a reported post is removed, subsequent posts that responded to said post are removed as well so that the thread is not further derailed.

 

[TallyT]

When a reported post is removed, subsequent posts that responded to said post are removed as well so that the thread is not further derailed.

Which I appreciate the need for even when it's my deathless prose that gets lost...

 

[figureskatingandrainbows]

Probably the federation flag, but I'm not sure

Yeah, JSF flag

 

[Blades of Passion]

In Seimei he's portraying the onmyouji Abe no Seimei (something like a magician-priest, from a historical fantasy movie) while in Heaven and Earth he's protraying the daimyou Nagao Kagetora/Uesugi Kenshin (a feudal lord/general who employs samurai, from an epic historical drama TV series). Kenshin wasn't the God of War but was sort of mythologised as such by his followers, similar to China's Guan Yu. But I agree, it is wrong to lump the two together just because they're 'ye olde Japanese/Oriental programmes' - it's like mixing up La Strada and the Barber of Seville because they're both European. They're separated by about 600 years (Heian period vs Tokugawa Shogunate) and are distinctly different genres (magic vs armed conflict).

Maybe we can continue the conversation here since the competition is long over; hopefully there won't be crazed fans viewing now who cause entire discussions to get deleted and everyone's time wasted.

A figure skating program is only the music and how the skater moves to it. The fact of the matter is, if anyone heard Seimei or Heaven+Earth in isolation without knowing about it first, they would not know the "story". This music can be used for many different purposes, and it simply happened to be what those composers created for the films in question. Just because a certain piece of music exists for a film, that doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to represent the film. It doesn't make someone's interpretation inherently better to do that either. People can include references in the choreography if they want (like acting drunk while skating to Pirates of the Caribbean), but that choreography needs to stand on its own, in relation to the music. If the movement itself isn't evocative enough and not in time with the exact textures of the music, then it's not good interpretation.

It's possible to use specific instruments and musical styles to hint at a specific time period, but these compositions are not deeply rooted in a given century like that. Both compositions use modern techniques. Even if you can detect a specific time period from a given piece of music, that still does not relay a more specific story. Nobody can listen to Seimei and be like "this music is totally about a 10th century onmyouji."

Now specifically about these two PROGRAMS of Hanyu's, he is clearly trying to portray some kind of heroic action figure in each one, and there's a whole bunch of choreography that has been recycled. Heaven&Earth resembles Seimei more than any other program of Hanyu's. It's not just the music, but the entire movement. And yes obviously the music is different, but the Japanese flavor of each composition still makes them more closely connected than any other piece of music Hanyu has used in comparison to Seimei. The instruments being used in these pieces are specific to the region, which can not be said of other music Hanyu has used.

I think Hanyu's new music could be used to create a great program, but his approach to it is far from ideal to me. It SEEMS like he is trying to copy the overall idea of Seimei, his "most successful" program. By trying to graft certain things about that program (like the general structure, for starters) onto Heaven&Earth, it falls more flat in comparison. It doesn't feel like he is pushing himself to be completely creative and artistically profound, it feels more like he is trying to recapture the "glory days" by hedging close to a proven template. There's still many things to like about the program, he's an amazing skater, but he has much more potential than this. Relatively, it is disappointing to me.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Maybe we can continue the conversation here since the competition is long over; hopefully there won't be crazed fans viewing now who cause entire discussions to get deleted and everyone's time wasted.

A figure skating program is only the music and how the skater moves to it. The fact of the matter is, if anyone heard Seimei or Heaven+Earth in isolation without knowing about it first, they would not know the "story". This music can be used for many different purposes, and it simply happened to be what those composers created for the films in question. Just because a certain piece of music exists for a film, that doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to represent the film. It doesn't make someone's interpretation inherently better to do that either. People can include references in the choreography if they want (like acting drunk while skating to Pirates of the Caribbean), but that choreography needs to stand on its own, in relation to the music. If the movement itself isn't evocative enough and not in time with the exact textures of the music, then it's not good interpretation.

It's possible to use specific instruments and musical styles to hint at a specific time period, but these compositions are not deeply rooted in a given century like that. Both compositions use modern techniques. Even if you can detect a specific time period from a given piece of music, that still does not relay a more specific story. Nobody can listen to Seimei and be like "this music is totally about a 10th century onmyouji."

Now specifically about these two PROGRAMS of Hanyu's, he is clearly trying to portray some kind of heroic action figure in each one, and there's a whole bunch of choreography that has been recycled. Heaven&Earth resembles Seimei more than any other program of Hanyu's. It's not just the music, but the entire movement. And yes obviously the music is different, but the Japanese flavor of each composition still makes them more closely connected than any other piece of music Hanyu has used in comparison to Seimei. The instruments being used in these pieces are specific to the region, which can not be said of other music Hanyu has used.

I think Hanyu's new music could be used to create a great program, but his approach to it is far from ideal to me. It SEEMS like he is trying to copy the overall idea of Seimei, his "most successful" program. By trying to graft certain things about that program (like the general structure, for starters) onto Heaven&Earth, it falls more flat in comparison. It doesn't feel like he is pushing himself to be completely creative and artistically profound, it feels more like he is trying to recapture the "glory days" by hedging close to a proven template. There's still many things to like about the program, he's an amazing skater, but he has much more potential than this. Relatively, it is disappointing to me.

The choreography could definitely benefit from some touching up to increase the distinction from Seimei. I think in principle it's fine that both are historical Japanese programmes, as long as he and Shae-Lynn pay attention to differentiate them further. Nationals is likely to be his only competitive outing this year (I am already assuming Stockholm will be cancelled) so this programme is probably more of a draft version than anything. Or even a placeholder for something unrelated next season (though the cultural references suggest Olympic purposes).

It seems quite common for many skaters to stick to a format that's proven to work for them, particularly in the run-up to Olympics (Papadakis/Cizeron, Sui/Han, Patrick Chan, Javier Fernandez). They end up with the challenge of making each programme slightly different while keeping some sort of signature style. Some of them pull it off.