2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Skatesocs]

Because it's not properly specified or defined.

I can see why where I went wrong with that question. Yes, acknowledged that the rule is poorly worded, and probably a lot of the TP doesn't know what to do with it and that the words should be changed - I do think that's a problem with their training, too, partly, because... What could it even mean. It wouldn't make sense to ding regular toe loops that also "take off forward".

I was hoping you'd give me examples of toe axels you believe weren't called as that, though.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

I can see why where I went wrong with that question. Yes, acknowledged that the rule is poorly worded, and probably a lot of the TP doesn't know what to do with it and that the words should be changed - I do think that's a problem with their training, too, partly, because... What could it even mean. It wouldn't make sense to ding regular toe loops that also "take off forward".

I was hoping you'd give me examples of toe axels you believe weren't called as that, though.

Daniel grassl toe-axels a reasonable amount. Lots of people from Lorenzo's coach do it too (particularly the girls). I'm surpised Gabriella Frangipani has such a good toeloop tbh. Shame as Daniel grassl has so much innate natural talent.

In general quite a few minor figure skaters do it. Right now none of the top skaters do it, which is probably as they grew up in a previous ISU generation and were taught properly from young age (or at least corrected as toeaxels were looked down more in the 2000-2010 period.

The issue is if you Google "toeaxels" you can't find anything. You have to rely on what you see when watching competitions and then remember who does them, and lots of them who do them haven't made it very far (usually the to unsustainable technqiue in other jumps, and due to the massive depth of modern figure skating field). However, more and more young people are learning toe Axel's and this problem will get worse and worse unless ISU sort it now.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Except the overrotation rule is in the technical panel handbook... which you could probably read at some point to refresh?
"
Over-rotated jumps If a jump is over-rotated more than a quarter revolution, it is called as a jump with the
higher revolution. For example 2T with more than a quarter revolution will be called
as 3T downgraded (<<) by the technical panel"

Yes, i found that too Jumps are rarely over-rotated that much tho, i never saw it happened in the competition with the triple jumps, but probably there are examples of skaters over-rotating a double.

 

[Shayuki]

When do you think Sasha's first quad was published?

Well she didn't fully rotate that one at first. Not for over half a year. Also Anna had quad in late 2016 already.

I mean, the only reason Trusova even has "first quad"-sorta achievements at all is because Anna broke her leg in 2017 summer. She's very very fortunate.

 

[Fried]

Well she didn't fully rotate that one at first. Not for over half a year. Also Anna had quad in late 2016 already.

I mean, the only reason Trusova even has "first quad"-sorta achievements at all is because Anna broke her leg in 2017 summer. She's very very fortunate.

I am an atheist myself, but allow believers to believe. It only becomes problematic when believers want to impose their own faith on other people.

 

[GINO]

Also Anna had quad in late 2016 already.

Do you have any proof of these words? I have given some facts proving that Sasha jumped quad before Anna

I mean, the only reason Trusova even has "first quad"-sorta achievements at all is because Anna broke her leg in 2017 summer. She's very very fortunate.

 

[Skatesocs]

However, more and more young people are learning toe Axel's and this problem will get worse and worse unless ISU sort it now.

I remember the wording about toe axels being included in this past off-season communication. It was retracted of course, but I expect the ISU is noticing this occuring more, and it will be back in the off season after 2021-22. I suppose that's also why they did the "pre rotation" and "full blade take off" wording in those communications.

 

[silveruskate]

Because it's not properly specified or defined.

"
A clear forward (backward for Axel type jump) take-off will be considered as a
downgraded jump. The toe loop is the most commonly cheated on take-off jump.
The TP may only watch the replay in regular speed to determine the cheat and
downgrade on the take off (more often in combinations or sequences).
"

Nowhere does it mention toe axel. A technical panel could inteperate this as "every single toeloop loop or salchow type jump should be automatically downgraded" to "no jump should be downgraded based off the takeoff".
Of course, we can assume it is referring to a toeaxel based on them specifically mentioning toeloop - but some toeaxels have the same prerotation as a normal toeloop (of course the majority have more). More to the point the vast majority of toeloops "takeoff from forwards" so by the technical panel wording almost every toeloop should be downgraded which would be a rather absurd thing to do.

It's much easier for a technical specialist to ignore an ambiguous and ridiculously worded rule rather than try interpretate it. That's why they don't punish toeaxels properly (or half skidded axels - which is part of the rule too).

Of course some specialists could interpretate it as 1/2 before the takeoff is initiated the takeoff is initiated (when they hit the first toepick - so if somebody did half on their blade on a loop or salchow before hitting their toe pick which does happen sometimes I think) but then at the end of the day why would that make toeloops the most cheated.

Whilst the intent is somewhat clear if it left the part about the axel out, adding the part about axel muddied the water a little bit in terms of its intent (although tech panels can only see in full speed).tech panels can either have debates on what intentions are - like the bible each coming up with our own interpretations. Figuring out what the word of God says when giving us the eternal truth within the panel handbook. Or we can wait for ISU to reword it. Until then people get away with toe-axels, and then when ISU change it they will be stuck with bad technqiue permanently and their chance of gold medals stunted with wasted talent.

After the discussion about Valieva's 4T attempt I also looked at the rules to check, and the rules are much broader than just toe-axel. Now, I have my views on the threshold where a jump becomes forward take-off, but what I would say is the skater placing the toe-pick in with their foot facing forwards should at least partially be the definition of forward take-off. I don't see how it means every jump should be downgraded honestly since most skaters have their picking foot facing backward on take-off when doing 3Ts.

 

[Jontor]

Do you have any proof of these words? I have given some facts proving that Sasha jumped quad before Anna

All this doesn't matter anyway. You can always find some kind of record or achievement by constructing the sentence in a certain way. Here is what it says about Shcherbakova on Wikipedia.

"Shcherbakova is the first senior lady to land a quad Lutz, which she landed at her first senior competition at the 2019 CS Lombardia Trophy.[4] Additionally, she is the first lady to land two quad Lutz jumps in a program, which she achieved at the 2019 Skate America.[5] At this competition, she also became the first lady to land a quad Lutz in combination (4Lz-3T)."

I don't know about 2017, but Anna was first last year in her first SENIOR competition. But that was only because she debuted a couple of weeks before Sasha.

I find this discussion about "who was first" irrevelant. They are both amazing skaters.

 

[Skatesocs]

I don't see how it means every jump should be downgraded honestly since most skaters have their picking foot facing backward on take-off when doing 3Ts.

No? They place it "sideways".

 

[Jontor]

I was hoping you'd give me examples of toe axels you believe weren't called as that, though.

The most obvious example I remember from last year was Alysa Liu's 3A's.

 

[lesnar001]

I find this discussion about "who was first" irrevelant. They are both amazing skaters.

I agree.

Funny how there weren't any of these "arguments" last season about Anna vs. Sasha.
Gee, I wonder what changed? And that "question" is directed at both sides.

 

[Skatesocs]

The most obvious example I remember from last year was Alysa Liu's 3A's.

Liu did teeter on toe axels yes, but I don't think her 3As deserved a backward take off cheat?

 

[Jontor]

I agree.

Funny how there weren't any of these "arguments" last season about Anna vs. Sasha.
Gee, I wonder what changed? And that "question" is directed at both sides.

Oh but there was! But what makes things a bit messy is that some people discuss what is done in practice and others what is done in competition. A HUGE difference.

E.g. last year's season began with a lot of people saying that Sasha with her 5 quads was unbeatable. As it turns out, she never managed to perform a 5 quad program.

Another example is Anastasia Gulyakova, who has been landing 3A's in practice for three years now, but we have never seen it in competition.

 

[Jontor]

Liu did teeter on toe axels yes, but I don't think her 3As deserved a backward take off cheat?

What about this one?

Alysa Liu (USA) | Ladies Short Program | ISU GP Finals 2019 | Turin | #JGPFigure

Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating. Courchevel, France - August 21 to 24 Lake Placid, ...

www.youtube.com

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I wonder why there is no Veronika Zhilina fanfest? The girl can jump quads with minimal prerotation. And her quad toe loop was perfect (no underrotations).

 

[Scott512]

It's quite amazing difference how Plushenko showed up in the arena barely noticed at all and Eteri entering the rink like a queen or a rock star amongst the loudest ovation and praise from the audience:

Pretty amazing.

 

[Scott512]

I wonder why there is no Veronika Zhilina fanfest? The girl can jump quads with minimal prerotation. And her quad toe loop was perfect (no underrotations).

I think she would have to be 13 to have a Fan Fest. I think that's what the rules used to be.

 

[lesnar001]

Oh but there was! But what makes things a bit messy is that some people discuss what is done in practice and others what is done in competition. A HUGE difference.

E.g. last year's season began with a lot of people saying that Sasha with her 5 quads was unbeatable. As it turns out, she never managed to perform a 5 quad program.

Another example is Anastasia Gulyakova, who has been landing 3A's in practice for three years now, but we have never seen it in competition.

I meant more along the lines of who was "first" to land such and such.

I think Sasha and 5 quads was more of a "Sasha vs the world" than a battle between fan bases.
Which is what it is devolving into. Only it seems the Sasha and Anna are being used as proxies in another type of "fan war".

Going into last season, Sasha seemed like she would be unbeatable (on paper at least).
IIRC she was terriffic at Japan Open (although not 5 quads).
But then she really struggled with consistency on her quads.
And Anna added a 2nd quad. And Aliona had a triple axel.
And the "convential wisdom" got turned on its head.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

No? They place it "sideways".

On top of this we'd also have to define takeoff as "foot placement" which means we could do 720degrees prerotation on the ice and then do a single revolution in the air and have it as a triple jump if we just said the takeoff was initial foot placement