2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Flying Feijoa]

For any skaters, or people who understand physics of figure skating - does using PR make the jump easier? It does seem unfair to reward someone doing 3 revolutions and 2.25 revolutions the same amount of points, but if both are equally difficult then I guess it doesn't matter save for aesthetics.

As a skater (doing double jumps), for me doing too much PR sometimes makes the jump easier, sometimes harder lol. Easier because there is less to rotate in the air of course. Harder because waiting too long on the take off, which is what causes too much PR, caused me to feel “tangled” in my own limbs. I feel stuck on the ice and I don’t get the height I usually would in a jump with a proper take off.

I'm trying to regain 1A (it went bad during quarantine) and working (unsuccessfully) on some easier doubles. When I first started skating I used to suffer from lack of PR on 1S/1Lo. The takeoff tracing looked quite flat/scratchy and my hips were sort of blocking rotation/translation, so it got good height but not much travel. I still have that problem with toe. I occasionally overcompensated when trying to fix it (too much PR) - these jumps felt lower, like I couldn't convert horizontal into vertical motion as easily. I sometimes PR my flip too much on takeoff but again it feels low (and hurts my picking foot). I can't jump a lutz with lots of PR because it gets 'tangled' like sparklestan said (it's just especially bad on lutz because my foot's still trapped on the takeoff edge). If that happens I either flutz/abort jump/fall in a twisted mess.

I'm nearly 1.7 m tall so maybe that's a factor too (and adult skaters have variable weird habits). Rotation is harder for me than jump height. The little kids at my rink rotate really easily with smaller jumps.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Liza T deserves the praise among the russians to have still today one of the best jumping technique. The proper toe pick on the toe jumps, the big height, the almost lack of prerotation, the proper edge on the lutz.

Amen to that! I'm still confounded by a judge giving her O GoE on one of the most gorgeous Lutzes. I mean unless they gave -2 to everyone else there I don't see how they could justify themselves!

 

[Amei]

Liza T deserves the praise among the russians to have still today one of the best jumping technique. The proper toe pick on the toe jumps, the big height, the almost lack of prerotation, the proper edge on the lutz.

Unfortunately she's not getting the marks cause that's her strenght but judges nowadays pretend it's all good, despite sea of flutzes not getting called, wrong toe picks, change of edge in between a combo,...

So if you take out that from her, the rest of her skating is not as good as the others, despite still being enjoyable to watch.

Tuktamysheva gets the base value of the jump and last season her GOE ranged between .5-1.5 points (on cleanly landed jumps); she struggles to get more than that because she rarely (if ever) does steps into or out of the jump, she goes into and out of jumps like you see at adult level competitions at your local ice rink. Additionally I felt that last season she tended to lose speed and ice coverage on her second/third jumps of her combinations.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Tuktamysheva gets the base value of the jump and last season her GOE ranged between .5-1.5 points (on cleanly landed jumps); she struggles to get more than that because she rarely (if ever) does steps into or out of the jump, she goes into and out of jumps like you see at adult level competitions at your local ice rink. Additionally I felt that last season she tended to lose speed and ice coverage on her second/third jumps of her combinations.

Perhaps there's no steps in and out of her jumps, but to suggest Liza jumps like an "adult level" skater is rather offensive. Show me a dozen adult-level skaters who's jumps are as easy and airy and then I'll admit defeat.

(I will admit to not liking steps out of jumps, I like it when the skater hold the edge, because when not done well a transition out tends to look like the skater going "OMG I'm gonna fall! Free foot down, spread eagle! Phew I saved that one!" I love the guy but sometimes Yuzu's jump exits give me that vibe!)

 

[kirauza343]

Tuktamysheva gets the base value of the jump and last season her GOE ranged between .5-1.5 points (on cleanly landed jumps); she struggles to get more than that because she rarely (if ever) does steps into or out of the jump, she goes into and out of jumps like you see at adult level competitions at your local ice rink. Additionally I felt that last season she tended to lose speed and ice coverage on her second/third jumps of her combinations.

Transitions only make up a single bullet point and aren’t even necessary to reach +5 GOE. Her lutz absolutely has good height and distance, is effortless throughout, has a good take off and landing, and a good body position throughout. That’s enough for +4 right there, and if it’s with the music she can still theoretically earn +5.

I feel like everyone focuses too much on transitions when talking about how much GOE a jump should get. The bullet point for transitions is a bonus! It’s not supposed to factor in unless the skater has hit the first three bullet points. Clearly it doesn’t work that way in practice but still.

 

[esteticlove]

I think that her long preparation before each jump kind of reduces the magic.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

It is not just the exact degree of a revolution what it is rewarded. For example, it is also more difficult to do a jump with preceding steeps or intricate entry, it is also more difficult to make a jump part of the programme in terms of music and the skating pattern, it is also more difficult to land a jump with the same flow as it is the start of the jump, it is also more difficult to have variations in the air positions etc etc So while a higher degree of the same number of revolutions is certainly a more difficult thing to do, besides that there are other things regarding jumps more difficult to do too. Simply saying, to jump above 2.5 revolutions (nobody is doing whole 3 revolutions in the air for a triple) outside of any context is difficult as to jump above 2.25 revolutions in the context of many other things.

That's why I feel like minimal PR should be a GOE bullet, just as difficult entrance or matches to the music is. I'm sure there are more difficult things in terms of jumping in FS besides PR (I am not a skater, well, I quit before actually learning jumps so yeah, I don't understand this stuff as well as I wish I did), but I want to know the scale. I'm sure it differs for everyone, but it would super interesting to see what most skaters found to be most difficult - getting the 2.5 - 2.75 rotations, difficult entries, arm variations, matching the music, maintaining speed on the ending or whatever else. Then we'd be able to see how important or unimportant PR really is. (I just think a lot of people care about it because in the rules of the ISU Handbook, it states that clear forward jumps should get deductions and a lot of them don't. How fair this rule is though, depends on how difficult achieving minimal PR is).

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

For me, a +5 lutz would be Polina Tsurskaya's. Everything about it (if she rotates it of course) is simply sublime!

 

[eterialskating]

Liza T deserves the praise among the russians to have still today one of the best jumping technique. The proper toe pick on the toe jumps, the big height, the almost lack of prerotation, the proper edge on the lutz.

Unfortunately she's not getting the marks cause that's her strenght but judges nowadays pretend it's all good, despite sea of flutzes not getting called, wrong toe picks, change of edge in between a combo,...

So if you take out that from her, the rest of her skating is not as good as the others, despite still being enjoyable to watch.

Well she does not have the proper edge on the flip or the consistensy so I don't why anyone would consider her jumping technique one of the best. She setups jumps like a 90's or 2000's skater. Some might still appreciate that technique but I absolutely abhor that style. I prefer jumps to be incindental and woven to a program. Not the jumps of yesteryears where skaters take a dozen crossovers, glides for an hour, jumps then grins like an idiot if they landed perfectly.

 

[karina17]

I wonder... If the BV of all of Anna's lutzes is first reduced by 15% because of her flat edge and then by additional 30% because of excessive pre-rotation. Hmmm... Then the BV of her flips should be reduced again by 30% because of excessive pre-rotaton. And finally why she receives crazy GOE If most of her jumps do not have much height or distance?
If she was judged fairly she would not be breaking any world records.

But those are your rules. Why is your definition of being "judged fairly" being judged by rules that only exist in your head?

Since when does BV get reduced for a flat edge? "!" call does nothing to your BV. Excessive pre-rotation does not take 30% of your BV. You made numbers up in your head and then got mad that judges in real life don't apply those numbers?

 

[ali0125]

Well she does not have the proper edge on the flip or the consistensy so I don't why anyone would consider her jumping technique one of the best.

Liza is over 20 years old, still can jump 3A, quad, and textbook lutz - without breaking her back for god sake too - that's why.

 

[plushyfan]

I disagree. PCS isn’t a retirement fund, you don’t earn it based on your age in senior skating. Some junior skaters are way better than most seniors and skate „like seniors“ (whatever that means) from a very young age. Aliona in jgp18 was already miles ahead of most seniors, but because she was technically a junior everyone had to say okay to her mildly infuriating low PCS.

Plus, I can't imagine most coaches talk about their rivals in this fashion. Orser would never discuss Nathan's scoring calling it a circus. It's not right.

He talked about the scoring and I have questions:

Have you ever seen a 14 y. o. skater who received such points? Yuna Kim, for example? No. Was this the most perfect program ever? She has the best SS ? No. Can't she evolve? No. Did the judge call Dasha's edge problem? No again. Did the foreigne experts and some Russians experts had same opinion? Yes. End of the story.

 

[Skatesocs]

He talked...

Plushenko talked about scoring and he has the right to do so. We have the right to not like it and criticize him for it though. Personally, I don't think someone talking about rival skaters is a bad thing in itself, but this isn't insightful in any way, and seems vindictive. But to be fair, while I can't speak for anyone else, that's been most, if not all, skaters who have spoken up about their own or someone else's scoring.

 

[plushyfan]

Plushenko talked about scoring and he has the right to do so. We have the right to not like it and criticize him for it though. Personally, I don't think someone talking about rival skaters is a bad thing in itself, but this isn't insightful in any way, and seems vindictive. But to be fair, while I can't speak for anyone else, that's been most, if not all, skaters who have spoken up about their own or someone else's scoring.

Yes. But he doesn't care about our opinions. He is on his way his academy will be unique , many skaters will want to train on his academy because of the great infrasturcture, environment, probably his skaters isn't going to be injured too offen because of the great treatment, thus he will have many students, and he will raise Olympic champions.

 

[Skatesocs]

But he doesn't care about our opinions.

If he doesn't care about our opinions, then why defend him?

 

[plushyfan]

Well, to be fair, publicly discussing your rival‘s scores isn’t in good taste. Neither for an athlete nor the coach. I mean, I agree with him on the overscoring of Kamila and Daria but it wasn’t his business to address the issue. For all the horrible things she’s said, I don’t ever remember Eteri doing something similar. It’s just not something you do. IMO at least.

Were Eteri skaters underscored or were scored unfairly ever? Otherwise some Russian experts formulated much more emphatically...According to Bestemionova that was unsportmanship to give Kamila those scores.

 

[plushyfan]

If he doesn't care about our opinions, them why defend him?

Does he know it? Wrong question.

 

[plushyfan]

Plushenko looks more and more like Draco Malfoy.

Yes, and Eteri is Cruella de Vil.

​

 

[Arbitrary]

Yes, and Eteri is Cruella de Vil.

​

Eteri is more like the Mermaid Queen from "Tidelands" (played by Elsa Pataky)

 

[Novalis]

Were Eteri skaters underscored or were scored unfairly ever? Otherwise some Russian experts formulated much more emphatically...According to Bestemionova that was unsportmanship to give Kamila those scores.

Are we still on about the PCS in the short, like Plushy in that interview? I know I keep repeating myself, but it's the relative scores that matter in a competition. Again: if Kamila gets 37 PCS in SP and Sasha 34, three point gap, then that is an injustice towards Kamila. Funnily Plushie didn't talk about this.