2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[plushyfan]

Are we still on about the PCS in the short, like Plushy in that interview? I know I keep repeating myself, but it's the relative scores that matter in a competition. Again: if Kamila gets 37 PCS in SP and Sasha 34, three point gap, then that is an injustice towards Kamila. Funnily Plushie didn't talk about this.

Do you know many experts said similar things with the situation and agree with Plushenko? I'm bored this matter. The judges really wanted to make a big gap for Kamila.

 

[flanker]

He talked about the scoring and I have questions:

Have you ever seen a 14 y. o. skater who received such points? Yuna Kim, for example? No. Was this the most perfect program ever? She has the best SS ? No. Can't she evolve? No. Did the judge call Dasha's edge problem? No again. Did the foreigne experts and some Russians experts had same opinion? Yes. End of the story.

First, scoring is still evolving. Not so long ago junior skaters received 8.00 at most internationally, this was broken by Aliona Kostornaia for the first time at 2018/19 season. Now juniors can receive much more. I presume that if we would say "but in the past it was done this way" we would still see doubles, maybe some occasional triple. Second, this was a senior competition and the skaters are scored as seniors equally, not by their age. There is no rule, international or domestical, that takes age as a factor for components.. Skaters are evaluated equally by their performance, not differently by their age (or or because you love Plushenko so desperastely that any trick against the rival skaters is completely OK for you). Third, if calling Dasha's problems, in that case Sasha's edges problems should have been not evaluated as ! but e. Double standard. As for "experts":

Yes. But he doesn't care about our opinions. He is on his way his academy will be unique , many skaters will want to train on his academy because of the great infrasturcture, environment, probably his skaters isn't going to be injured too offen because of the great treatment, thus he will have many students, and he will raise Olympic champions.

This is pure fan enthusiasm, partly adorable, partly funny.

Were Eteri skaters underscored or were scored unfairly ever? Otherwise some Russian experts formulated much more emphatically...According to Bestemionova that was unsportmanship to give Kamila those scores.

Yes, they were. And it was even praised here that "some skaters are judged more harshly than others". As for Bestemianova, she's long time Eteri hater, she often expressed comments on Eteri skaters, esp. Alina, full of nastiness and hate, and can't be in any way considered impartial "expert", it's an act of despair.

So, to make myself clear: On one competition driven by joint and equal rules for everyone the question of age is completely irrelevant. Supposing Kamila+Daria and Sasha should be scored differently because of their age (are 2 years truly a difference? No, and from the skating perspective of those three absolutely not). The difference in "maturity" between Sasha and Kamila is nonexistent and supposing some "senior bonus" for her in advance against Kamila shows bias and hate towards the rivals. Publicly commenting on rival skaters scores from a coach and transfering the competition from the ice to the media is completely unprofessional, to say at least, as was posted before.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If he doesn't care about our opinions, then why defend him?

Well he isn't wrong to call-out unfair scoring. I mean obviously it'd be great if he had done it out of the goodness of his heart rather than only after it affected Sasha, but what are you going to do?

Honestly didn't Kamila's controversial SP score impact Daria U most of all? A lot of people feel she should have come second, which she would have if the scoring had been more objective...or possibly even won!

 

[Novalis]

Do you know many experts said similar things with the situation and agree with Plushenko? I'm bored this matter. The judges really wanted to make a big gap for Kamila.

You still don't understand me. So, let me put it like this: I don't even disagree what Plushie says there. But there's two problems here:

1. It's what he doesn't say. He says: Kamila was ridiculously overscored in SP PCS. But he doesn't say: "My skater Sasha was also ridiculously overscored in SP PCS. So Kamila didn't get any undeserved advantige from that" (on the contrary if you ask me.)

2. Talking about the scores of other skaters publicly. I'm personally annoyed of him mentioning Kamila, when I know from her interviews how much she hates that. I don't want her to be a pawn in these ridiculous coaching powergames

 

[Alex65]

You still don't understand me. So, let me put it like this: I don't even disagree what Plushie says there. But there's two problems here:

1. It's what he doesn't say. He says: Kamila was ridiculously overscored in SP PCS. But he doesn't say: "My skater Sasha was also ridiculously overscored in SP PCS. So Kamila didn't get any undeserved advantige from that" (on the contrary if you ask me.)

2. Talking about the scores of other skaters publicly. I'm personally annoyed of him mentioning Kamila, when I know from her interviews how much she hates that. I don't want her to be a pawn in these ridiculous coaching powergames

You really do not love Sasha, everyone has already understood, do not repeat yourself. Sasha received 34 PCS all last season at international and Russian competitions. In the Age of Camila, Sasha received 30 in the Worlds, from Camila 32 РCS in the worlds. this year. And then suddenly the judges add +5 PCS to Kamila. But you are not enough. How many do you need? +10? +20?

 

[Skatesocs]

Well he isn't wrong to call-out unfair scoring

You're doing it too. There is no meaning in defending *him* much like there's no meaning in criticising *him*.

Criticise his opinions, like nussnacker and I have done. Defend his opinions like I've seen no one do yet.

Honestly didn't Kamila's controversial SP score impact Daria U most of all?

I am not sure why I keep having an Eteri skater shoved under my nose whenever I bring up Plushenko. Please, I'm not that big of a fan of any Eteri skater. Lipnitskaya and Zagitova are all I've particularly liked watching.

 

[anonymoose_au]

You're doing it too. There is no meaning in defending *him* much like there's no meaning in criticising *him*.

Criticise his opinions, like nussnacker and I have done. Defend his opinions like I've seen no one do yet.

I'm not sure what you mean? I agree with his opinion that Kamila's score was unfair so I'm not going to criticise him on that - I will criticise him bringing up Alina Z because I don't think he should have, even if asked.

With regards to Kamila I don't think anyone, even Plushy was saying she should have come last or even that didn't deserve to be in the lead, just not by that much. I admit to been upset about it mostly on Sasha's behalf, but that doesn't mean the score would have been any less unfair if Sasha hadn't been at that competition.

I am not sure why I keep having an Eteri skater shoved under my nose whenever I bring up Plushenko. Please, I'm not that big of a fan of any Eteri skater. Lipnitskaya and Zagitova are all I've particularly liked watching.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you must be a big Eteri supporter, I was just trying to point out that by overscoring Kamila, the judges made it unfair for everyone, even her own training mate.

 

[Skatesocs]

I'm not sure what you mean?

I mean that I'm not interested in the propriety of him having ranted about scoring. That's what I get out of "he was wrong" or "he was right to criticize overscoring" or whatever else.

What I'd like to hear from the "defending" side is why they think a 14 year old shouldn't get senior PCS when competing against other seniors? Because to me the implication seems that he thinks she and Usacheva should have been held back compared to the seniors in the competition - deserved or not.

I will give you that she didn't deserve 9s and 10s in that competition. But unless we're doing a full rescore (and are going to acknowledge that a lot of the skaters there were vastly overscored, like Trusova getting a 9 on PCS even), we can really only talk about what the differential was vs what people think it should have been, in my opinion. So if you want to continue that line of discussion, and can defend his opinion there, I'm interested.

 

[readernick]

Just a reminder, there is a separate thread to talk about the coaching "drama." Perhaps, move your conversations there?

 

[Skatesocs]

Just a reminder, there is a separate thread to talk about the coaching "drama." Perhaps, move your conversations there?

This isn't about coaching. It's about scoring. A mod himself talked about it here, and the posts haven't been moved while a lot others have been.

 

[yume]

What would have been the reaction if Tutberidze had said that Trusova getting basically the same pcs than Usacheva in the short and higher pcs in the free is total bs?

I hope those who say "it's normal to call unfair scoring" would have said the same. Because that was unfair.

Usacheva deserved the same treatment than Kostornaya at 2018 jgpf where the girl was given a total advantage of almost 7 points in pcs, 5 points in the free. Skating back to back (on the same music) it was clear imo that Usacheva was the more polished skater (and was clean). She deserved a 5 points lead in pcs in the free.
That was an unfair scoring toward an Eteri's skater.

I don't see the need for Plushy to call anything when his skater won, especially getting generous judging.

 

[anonymoose_au]

I mean that I'm not interested in the propriety of him having ranted about scoring. That's what I get out of "he was wrong" or "he was right to criticize overscoring" or whatever else.

What I'd like to hear from the "defending" side is why they think a 14 year old shouldn't get senior PCS when competing against other seniors? Because to me the implication seems that he thinks she and Usacheva should have been held back compared to the seniors in the competition - deserved or not.

I will give you that she didn't deserve 9s and 10s in that competition. But unless we're doing a full rescore (and are going to acknowledge that a lot of the skaters there were vastly overscored, like Trusova getting a 9 on PCS even), we can really only talk about what the differential was vs what people think it should have been, in my opinion. So if you want to continue that line of discussion, and can defend his opinion there, I'm interested.

I see what you mean now. I'll concede that I don't think it's impossible for a 14 year old to get 10s, I don't think it's likely - I mean...do many skaters no matter how long they've skated get 10s? - but to be honest the more I try to figure out scoring, the less it makes sense. PCS is supposed to be judged by a set of standards, not against other skaters...Novices and Juniors often seem to get very low PCS scores, is PCS standard across the levels (seems weird to me, good ice coverage for a tiny seven year old should mean something different to good ice coverage for a 14 or 15 year old) . But then in the 6.0 system it appears Junior skaters also got a lot lower marks then the seniors even when skaters were compared directly, so what's all that about? Obviously I'll have to investigate the scoring system further.

Anyway, I watched Kamila's SP just now and tried to pay close attention to the Composition and Interpretation as that was where she recieved her 10s. Problem is, I would be a terrible judge as I'm not good at been objective, I'm also very unmusical, so I'll probably sound like an idiot as I try to explain myself. Now, I was pretty mean to Kamila when it came to the choreography of Bolero and I feel like a jerk for that, because in this SP her skating was really lovely, the ballet inspired bits in particular, but I wasn't blown away and I'm not even sure the Interpretation was stunning, Kamila seemed to skate to the same tempo the whole way through to me, like sometimes the music seemed heavier and slower but she stayed airy and delicate, which is nice to look at, but was it intrepretating the piece? I don't know, I didn't think so.

So I went and watched Sasha (Plushy, your mask, WTH), now her music struck me as been about yearning, reaching out to someone and hoping they respond. To me Sasha intrepretated that yearning with her arm and body movements she was reaching out during the program, I felt it. Because of my bias I can't say if I'm seeing what isn't there.

I do wonder...I remember reading somewhere that all the judges scores are randomised, so for example J1 on Kamila's score sheet isn't J1 on Sasha's, did I imagine that this was a thing? Or if it was a thing, is it still one? If so then Judge 1 gave Kamila 10 for her intrepretation and Sasha 9.5, which I wouldn't call sheninigans on. However, if J1 on Kamila's score sheet is J2, 4 or 6 on Sasha's then they only gave Sasha 8.5 and Kamila 10, which I don't think is fair.

Er sorry for the novel...I won't actually comment on Composition because...I have even less idea about what to look for there!

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Transitions only make up a single bullet point and aren’t even necessary to reach +5 GOE. Her lutz absolutely has good height and distance, is effortless throughout, has a good take off and landing, and a good body position throughout. That’s enough for +4 right there, and if it’s with the music she can still theoretically earn +5.

I feel like everyone focuses too much on transitions when talking about how much GOE a jump should get. The bullet point for transitions is a bonus! It’s not supposed to factor in unless the skater has hit the first three bullet points. Clearly it doesn’t work that way in practice but still.

Liza's lutz doesn't have that good distance and the flow. It is up and down jump, without the good trajectory. That's why it is also hard for her to attach other jump to it. Nobody is focused purely on transitions, but you need to make the jump a part of the whole programme somehow, that's the whole point of performing a figure skating programme and not being involved in a jump competition. And that's why for example Satoko's lutz can score the same amount of points as Liza's lutz.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Liza's lutz doesn't have that good distance and the flow. It is up and down jump, without the good trajectory. That's why it is also hard for her to attach other jump to it. Nobody is focused purely on transitions, but you need to make the jump a part of the whole programme somehow, that's the whole point of performing a figure skating programme and not being involved in a jump competition.

Here's the lutz in question from Finlandia - https://youtu.be/5EJJpf-hP2c?t=95 - now I see what you mean by a lack of flow out, this was the solo jump of the program, so it whether another jump could be attached to it doesn't seem relevant. In terms of the program...this is like an exclamation point, a big bang in the middle of the program, choreographically speaking it's meant to stand out rather than flow into a series of movements.

But er...that might just be me projecting

 

[esteticlove]

He talked about the scoring and I have questions:

Have you ever seen a 14 y. o. skater who received such points? Yuna Kim, for example? No. Was this the most perfect program ever? She has the best SS ? No. Can't she evolve? No. Did the judge call Dasha's edge problem? No again. Did the foreigne experts and some Russians experts had same opinion? Yes. End of the story.

No, but I also haven't seen another 14-year-old to really come close to Valieva's level. Isn't it unfair NOT to reward a skater for their skills? It was also you to complain about judges not scoring Sasha's 3A even though it is flawed. I think it is very similar. You want a skater to get high points for a difficult technical element. I support this (if the element was executed flawless, see for example Sasha's 4T-3T). I want a skater to get high PCS because is demostrating superior skating in comparison to the rivals. And we are not talking only about speed and sliding, see her one foot steps, extensions, general posture etc. (for which we have interpretation of the program and performance points)

 

[flanker]

Just a reminder, there is a separate thread to talk about the coaching "drama." Perhaps, move your conversations there?

This isn't about coaching. It's about scoring. A mod himself talked about it here, and the posts haven't been moved while a lot others have been.

I wouldn't mind if this would've been moved there because it's still more about who's coaching who than true talks about scoring,

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Here's the lutz in question from Finlandia - https://youtu.be/5EJJpf-hP2c?t=95 - now I see what you mean by a lack of flow out, this was the solo jump of the program, so it whether another jump could be attached to it doesn't seem relevant. In terms of the program...this is like an exclamation point, a big bang in the middle of the program, choreographically speaking it's meant to stand out rather than flow into a series of movements.

But er...that might just be me projecting

It is just fine for me choreographically speaking, but if a judge in the arena spotted a 'pause'/interruption in the programme for setting up/preparing the jump, it will get max +3 from her/him. With the better flow on the landing it can be scored with +4 i guess.

 

[anonymoose_au]

It is just fine for me choreographically speaking, but if a judge in the arena spotted a 'pause'/interruption in the programme for setting up/preparing the jump, it will get max +3 from her/him. With the better flow on the landing it can be scored with +4 i guess.

Exactly! But a judge gave it no GOE, none! I mean did they mean to do that? I'm not saying it's +5, but no GOE at all? That's kind of outrageous.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Exactly! But a judge gave it no GOE, none! I mean did they mean to do that? I'm not saying it's +5, but no GOE at all? That's kind of outrageous.

That's the judge who maybe 'spotted' what i was taking about and decided to deduct 2 GOE points from positives for a 'visible' jump preparation. Or saw something else about the jump to deduct. And because he/she was the only one thinking like that his/her score for that jump didn't count at all. The majority of judges gave her +3.

 

[silveruskate]

It's all fine that junior skaters aren't penalised for being younger. I agree with it. But I would understand the 3A's side if they weren't so happy. Like all that came before them, their PCS was held back too while they were juniors. People talk about how being a junior or senior shoulders even matter, but they forget that it has always been like this and all other skaters have gone through the same.

I'm happy if RusFed is deciding now to not think about age and seniority, but frankly I can't tell if that is what they're doing. Usacheva didn't get the same benefits. Forgive me for being sceptical.

Anyways, this is why PCS does not matter at all. With the inflation and score cap squeeze, by the Olympics all the skaters will have around the same PCS. Not something to rest on.