2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Flying Feijoa]

Just popping in to point out that the toepick is always involved in edge jumps too... Something one learns very quickly even at the single jump stage is the unpleasant splat caused by not getting to the toepick before trying to take off! When you press down on the edge and rise up, it tightens the takeoff curve (which generates rotation) but to actually translate this horizontal momentum into vertical movement you roll from the middle of the blade up to the toepick. That's why you *normally* can't jump in hockey skates (a coach at my rink can do waltz jumps wearing hockey skates for fun, but he skids the edge to generate the necessary friction in lieu of a toepick). Also why switching to a curvier blade or different heel height makes your jumps funky till you get used to it :scowl:

You might possibly be referring to a scratchy takeoff (rising onto the toepick too early) or a skidded one (weight too far back on the blade). Both cases actually make it harder by reducing momentum, because it's basically the same technique that you use to stop on ice (hockey stop or rising to toepicks). Exception is skidding the triple axel - I guess some skaters e.g. Javi prefer to sacrifice the extra momentum of a clean takeoff edge for more grip.

Disclaimer: Not a pro, just repeating the corrections my coach has given me when I've screwed up jumps.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

I wonder if anyone has tried to attempt any rescoring of elements or anything in order to try to see who "won" test skates in their eyes. For me, the top 3 are Sasha, Kami and then Anya (231, 225, 221) but I feel like I did a bad job since for the GOE I tried to stay objective and truthful, but I tried to make the PCS reflect what the judges might give them.

 

[Scott512]

One thing I'm sure of is that if it had become known that during these test skates, an Eteri skater:

a) was allowed to skate with a fever in the middle of the freaking covid pandemic.
b) had a super messy skate like Medvedeva, most likely because of an old injury while also looking unusually skinny and still, was allowed to skate here.
c) skated a short program with an injury and then was praised by her coach for sucking it up and skating anyway.

Sure, we saw a few critical opinions about this here and in the Test Skates thread, but definitely not the outrage it would have caused if it was an Eteri skater and I didn't see a single person blaming the coach or posting long speeches about how irresponsible and abusive Mishin, TAT, Brian or Plushenko are.

All true. Sad butbtrue. I'm at friends for some Italian food and a couple beers the courtyard restaurant outside and they still took my temperature. To think that they didn't take Sofia temperature and still let her stay knowing she was ill is unconscionable. The Russian Federation seems in the Dark Ages when it comes to covid-19 and some other things as well.

Are the test skates worth skating through pain for, though? Many other top skaters withdrew for different reasons and I don't think they will be punished or disadvantaged for having skipped this.
Overall, as much as I enjoyed and missed watching skating like this, I think it was very irresponsible for the federation to organize this and hype it so much, putting innecesary pressure in the skaters to feel like they need to show something that they might not be fully prepared for.

Fed is crazy. It was a big success but at what cst? Alina did right for staying away.

To answer your question no. Hell no. Plushenko said aliona skated with injections. Whaaaaaaaat? Test skates are meaningless for skater of her caliber,

and if some of this s*** happened under Eteris watch it would have been the end of the world.

Also shame on anyone in the arena who heckled Sasha or aliona from the crowd. Anna and Kamila would be embarrassed. Those are their friends and teammates and former club mates. Fans need to behave better and wear some damn mask in the arena.

Things need to be better for the rest of these domestic events they have and especially at Nationals which will be a monster competition for the ladies.

 

[colormyworld240]

Unpopular opinion: I don't love Sasha's skating but I love that she loves to jump. And if she wants to go for all her quads, like she said she, I think she should. After all, no one is telling Alena to tone down her skating skills or Anna to tone down her musicality. They all know the scoring system, but they can also have preferences.

Yes, there is the argument of quads and injuries, but this is different for each skater. Skaters are also injured from spins and falls unrelated to jumps. And on the topic of injuries, I believe Sasha is the only senior lady who hasn't been injured, despite doing the most quads. All the Russian ladies for as long as I can remember: Anna, Alena, Alina, Evgenia, Elena, Anna P, Yulia, etc. have all been injured. I get that not everyone likes jumps, but saying that Sasha should not be jumping her quads because of the safety concern makes no sense as each skater has different abilities naturally and what's safe for one skater might not be for another. And from what I can see, Sasha looks like she's far more likely to be injured from the Biellmann (what she visibly struggles with) than any jump.

 

[Tolstoj]

And why do you think 'it' isn't take in the consideration through the GOE, because i'm pretty sure 'it' is.

Skaters getting even +5 with the full blade on the ice on edge jump. It happened even last season.

And yes it is not the only aspect to consider the take-off but it is among those aspects.

Unpopular opinion: I don't love Sasha's skating but I love that she loves to jump. And if she wants to go for all her quads, like she said she, I think she should. After all, no one is telling Alena to tone down her skating skills or Anna to tone down her musicality. They all know the scoring system, but they can also have preferences.

Yes, there is the argument of quads and injuries, but this is different for each skater. Skaters are also injured from spins and falls unrelated to jumps. And on the topic of injuries, I believe Sasha is the only senior lady who hasn't been injured, despite doing the most quads. All the Russian ladies for as long as I can remember: Anna, Alena, Alina, Evgenia, Elena, Anna P, Yulia, etc. have all been injured. I get that not everyone likes jumps, but saying that Sasha should not be jumping her quads because of the safety concern makes no sense as each skater has different abilities naturally and what's safe for one skater might not be for another. And from what I can see, Sasha looks like she's far more likely to be injured from the Biellmann (what she visibly struggles with) than any jump.

Ideally yes, but last competitions with all those quads together and the 3a it was not easy for the skater. That's what she wanted yes but i also remember her crying after the FS at Nationals.

I just hope they'll approach this step by step, and see how it goes at each competition rather than adding everything all at once again.

As for the Biellmann to be fair, she has always struggled, in fact last season they ditched it entirely at Europeans if i remember correctly. If you recall even the i-spin was not very fast even in the junior days, and ditched that as well 2 seasons ago.

I'm not sure if it is really a back injury or simply lack of flexibility.

 

[Tolstoj]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I believe Sasha is the only senior lady who hasn't been injured

Knock on wood! And agree about the Biellmann being not worth it for the risk (and so-so GOE) - it's possible to get Level 4 on a layback without one (see Wakaba Higuchi). I hope her coaching team considers working on some other difficult variations as alternative options to get the level and the quality. Who needs another predictable garden-variety haircutter-into-Biellmann when you can quad? Plus, getting a back injury from a Biellmann is like breaking an ankle by tripping in high heels - facepalmingly mundane and avoidable. (Sorry for the rant, I'm a bit sour grapes when it comes to back flexibility as mine is the average male skater's standard )

 

[Skatesocs]

You might possibly be referring to a scratchy takeoff (rising onto the toepick too early) or a skidded one (weight too far back on the blade). Both cases actually make it harder by reducing momentum, because it's basically the same technique that you use to stop on ice (hockey stop or rising to toepicks). Exception is skidding the triple axel - I guess some skaters e.g. Javi prefer to sacrifice the extra momentum of a clean takeoff edge for more grip.

Disclaimer: Not a pro, just repeating the corrections my coach has given me when I've screwed up jumps.

Not really. I really am referring to the (admittedly rare) clean edge take off we see on the 2A and the 3S. But maybe these videos will clear it up, so you can tell me if I'm wrong.

Like this 3S from Chartrand: https://youtu.be/lMXFoYHMj_c?t=192

or this 2A in hockey skates from Browning: https://youtu.be/gqRhWg9cTfQ?t=95

I also remember Kim being praised for a clean edge take off on the 2A in a 2006 GP, but I can't find the video currently. My point is simpler than that though. We have accepted that using toe pick on edge jumps helps. Why do we see criticism on "full blade take offs" in comparison.

 

[plushyfan]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

I believe this is just a speculation of the Russian Fs fans because they didn't see Rozanov next to the fence during Trusova's skating. And "they no longer speak to each other"? This is exaggeration by far! But we don't know exactly , of course. This video from angelsofplushenko IG account yesterday https://www.instagram.com/p/CFIAWZHp9b4/

 

[nussnacker]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

I would take everything they say with a grain of salt. Their insides are correct sometimes, and quite often they are very off and downright just fantasies of some fans.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

Plushyfan can probably answer that for you.
I don't know about social media (not really my thing unless you count this forum), but on Allskaters.info the two major coaching groups in Plushenko's academy are 1. Plushenko, Volkov, Biyan (kids: Artem Kovalev etc.) and 2. Plushenko, Mikhailov, Ilinykh, Rozanov (kids: Sarnovsky, Titova, ex-Sambo-70 skaters). Previously Rozanov was listed separately in a 3rd group with Plushenko (kids: all who came over from Sambo-70). Maybe because he had just recently moved and they hadn't yet worked out the details?
Mikhailov is 22, was a singles-turned-ice-dancer and is tall, so he specialises in skating skills/choreo/harness and teaching novices, but isn't yet very experienced in coaching (started in 2019). I'm guessing that when Rozanov came (and afterwards, Ilinykh) it benefited both groups as a whole to merge, so the kids could get specialist help in all areas (and so that Plush wouldn't need to clone himself to oversee 3 groups). Just speculation on logical grounds (as opposed to TSL's scandalous grounds).

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Skaters getting even +5 with the full blade on the ice on edge jump. It happened even last season.

Like who, for example? It is more than possible to get +3 even without a good take-off, and some judges may find the take off not perfect, but still fine (because what is 'required' is a good take off, not very good one) to go with more GOE.

 

[Resa]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

Oh no, that's a pity. But it would explain his absence. Trusova must be quite angry at Kostornaya for "luring' away her coach. At least I would be.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

I think I read something similar in one of the Russian forums. Some even think that that Prince Sergey does not speak to Sasha because this is forbidden by Alyona.

 

[plushyfan]

I think I read something similar in one of the Russian forums. Some even think that that Prince Sergey does not speak to Sasha because this is forbidden by Alyona.

sigh..typical Russian FS fans's supidity and malice..

 

[flanker]

I read on TSL that Rozanov and Trusova no longer speak to each other after Kostornaya joined the group. Is that real?

In that case i assume this is the situation

Dmitry Mikhailov -> Trusova's coach (i mean Plushenko also technically)

Sergey Rozanov - Kostornaya's coach

Correct?

TSL claims that? One more beer, please

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Not really. I really am referring to the (admittedly rare) clean edge take off we see on the 2A and the 3S. But maybe these videos will clear it up, so you can tell me if I'm wrong.

Chartrand's 3S: Practically everyone takes off like this? It might help if you give the opposite example (what you consider a 'toepick takeoff' salchow).

Browning's 2A in hockey skates: Skidded takeoff (see the burst of snow). If he didn't skid, he wouldn't have been able to take off, because of the lack of toepicks - exactly how the coach at my rink jumps in hockey skates (or how some ex-figure-skater NHLers have demonstrated 1As).

A clean edge takeoff means an edge without scratching or skidding (which causes a lot of snow, as compared to a little). Have a look at Hanyu's versus Fernandez's takeoffs on the 3A, get a slow-mo of the blade if you can, and watch how the toepick lifts off last as the foot points to leave the ground. See that little bit of snow that's thrown up, even by Hanyu who belongs to the camp that doesn't use the skidding technique. It's from his toepick pushing off the ice last.

As you raised Kurt's skidded 2A (weight back on the blade) as a 'clean edge takeoff', I'm guessing what you meant by 'toe pick takeoff on edge jumps' is something more akin to lingering a bit longer on the toepick at the end of the takeoff edge so it looks a bit like a pivot. Ok, that's related to the pre-rotation debate (which has I'm sure been beaten to death here, so not wading into it). Regardless of the amount of pivoting, you still have to hit the toepick at some point to take off - the only other physical possibilities are skidding or wiping out (that's what happens with a 'waxel').

Do you skate? Try doing a bunny hop or waltz jump in rentals with the drag pick ground off. You'll see what I mean.
If you don't skate, try taking your question to the Lutz Corner, there are coaches and triple/quad jumpers there who can clarify. It's a more reputable source than Youtube, definitely.

...I've caved in and got caught up in a RLT debate again despite not watching Russian Ladies very much. Oops. Will blame the pandemic...

 

[Flying Feijoa]

One last thought - is pitting skaters against each other in imaginary catfights a gender-specific thing? Like, nobody seems to do that to the boys

 

[Skatesocs]

Ok, that's related to the pre-rotation debate

:agree:

ETA: Not everyone takes off like Chartrand on the salchow. She really does do only 1/4 pivot on take-off. It does seem to me the way she does this is different from others who do 1/2 usually. This is what I'm talking about. "Full blades" are usually related to pre-rotation beyond 1/4 on flip and lutz too. I know Blades and Kolyadafan who both post here sometimes are or were high level skaters, so I'll let it be in this thread.

 

[nussnacker]

One last thought - is pitting skaters against each other in imaginary catfights a gender-specific thing? Like, nobody seems to do that to the boys

no... I still remember how I got flack for complimenting Danielyan, lol.