2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[TripleAxelQueens3]

You refuted nothing. Stsq at EuCh was level 4, now it's level 3, 4Lz was bad, no 4S at all, 3Lz+3Lo wasn't landed (warm-ups doesn't count of course), flip wasn't marked '!' last season even once, now it is twice in one competition, programs are afwul and empty and don't fit her at all, jump entries are simplified, less transitions of course.

Did you even read Lunalovesskating's post?
Sasha got tons of level 3s even when she was with Eteri so that is in no way a reflection of how she has supposedly "gotten worse". You really just took a step sequence from one (ONE) competition and decided "yep because she got a level 4 here she must have gotten a level four everywhere else!" No, that's not how it works.
She didn't land the 4Lz twice. It's literally been two events, and after quarantine too. What, do you expect that she's going to suddenly be able to do fifty quads in a program? And besides, Anna hasn't been landing her 4Lz either so you can't say only Sasha has gotten worse.
Flip wasn't marked ! last season because it wasn't flat edge. That is one of her new flaws.
Program are "awful"? Well, that's completely up to one's personal opinion. I personally love her SP and I can deal with the FS. At the very least it is much better than her SP last season that was just so forgettable. It felt like Daniil suddenly realized they forgot to choreograph Sasha's SP so he took Hall of the Mountain King and the Kill Bill choreograph and smashed it together to make her new SP.
Jump entries are simplified... this I don't agree with. Sure, in the first half or so of the FS it is empty transition wise, but it has been since she started doing quads. The cantilever into 3F in the SP is beautiful (if only the flip could be inside edge), and the transition in 3Lz+3Lo was really good too (of course, if she landed the 3Lz+3Lo that would've been better too).
Oh and about the 3Lz+3Lo, she only attempted it once last season and landed it, but like just barely. So, no, that doesn't mean she's gotten worse. She's been struggling with that jump for two seasons now.

So yes, she has improved because one, her programs actually match the music and she is trying to match the music as well. Two, her posture, especially after landing a jump, is much better. The 4T+3T combo is much less hunched, and the flow between the two is getting better too. Her toe-pick is also looking a lot cleaner than it used to be. Programs are much more entertaining as well. The "facts" you gave are flawed because they are either opinionated (therefore removing their ability to be a factual statement), literally factually incorrect, incorrect in terms of context, or completely unrelated to the argument.

 

[trkvy]

we all know once you leave Eteri the edge calls start coming despite the edge being an issue for a long time. Daria had an inside edge on her Lutzes this weekend and did not get an edge call on any of the three Lutzes. That Sasha got an edge call has everything to do with the judges who love to punish skaters with calls once someone leaves Eteri. It has happened with many so far. That judges even dared to call edges at IdF and CoC last season was a rare exception and we all know what happened after.

Now you go full conspiracy theory about judges punishing someone leaving almighty and evil Eteri etc, and I don't argue with conspiracy theorists.
Judges in FS gave Sasha PCS equal to Valieva's PCS, which is ridiculuos. It must be her "punishment" for leaving Eteri, huh

 

[nussnacker]

Furthermore, we all know once you leave Eteri the edge calls start coming despite the edge being an issue for a long time. Daria had an inside edge on her Lutzes this weekend and did not get an edge call on any of the three Lutzes. That Sasha got an edge call has everything to do with the judges who love to punish skaters with calls once someone leaves Eteri. It has happened with many so far. That judges even dared to call edges at IdF and CoC last season was a rare exception and we all know what happened after.

Poor judges dared to call exclusively 2 Eteri skaters, whilst being completely blind with others. Oh, those poor things. They should always only make calls to whoever Eteri puts on ice to keep some satisfied. Funny that we're talking about this, because I recall at least a few competitions when Medvedeva was not called with an E for her lutz even last season and got generous GOEs for it (+3s), even though it's an issue that is quite well known at this point. Another memorable one was when she got better GOE and no call for her lutz compared to Tuktamysheva's lutz, which is an absurdity at it's finest, at their skate off on Rus Cup Final. She wasn't with Eteri at Rus Cup Final, was she?
Sasha's PCS increased compared to Rus Nats, is that also an evidence of her scores dropping due to leaving Eteri?

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Now you go full conspiracy theory about judges punishing someone leaving Eteri etc, and I don't argue with conspiracy theorists.
Judges in FS gave Sasha PCS equal to Valieva's PCS, which is ridiculuos. It must be her "punishment" for leaving Eteri, huh

I'm sorry but this person literally talked about edges, not PCS.
When did she say that they would get a PCS deduction... nowhere! I just... you are arguing against something that no one has said. You are literally arguing with yourself.
The facts are there for you to see: Eteri skaters rarely get edge calls (even back in 2018 when literally every single FS fan knew Zhenya had a flutz, she'd still be getting like all +3s), but once they leave their edges get rightfully called (case in point with Zhenya, Sasha sort of, Lilbet too).

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Now you go full conspiracy theory about judges punishing someone leaving Eteri etc, and I don't argue with conspiracy theorists.
Judges in FS gave Sasha PCS equal to Valieva's PCS, which is ridiculuos. It must be her "punishment" for leaving Eteri, huh

You have made a full post with inaccurate theories and accusations just a page ago, non of them based on facts and now suddenly I am the conspiracy theorist? *laugh* Do you want me to provided you with the statistics concerning edge calls too? Should I bother to, considering that you do not even seem to believe in statistics?

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Poor judges dared to call exclusively 2 Eteri skaters, whilst being completely blind with others. Oh, those poor things. They should always only make calls to whoever Eteri puts on ice to keep some satisfied. Funny that we're talking about this, because I recall at least a few competitions when Medvedeva was not called with an E for her lutz even last season and got generous GOEs for it (+3s), even though it's an issue that is quite well known at this point. Another memorable one was when she got better GOE and no call for her lutz compared to Tuktamysheva's lutz, which is an absurdity at it's finest, at their skate off on Rus Cup Final. She wasn't with Eteri at Rus Cup Final, was she?

(I have no idea if this is sarcasm or not but I'm responding as if it weren't):
1. I looked at IDF protocols and um I'm pretty sure they called out almost everyone?
2. Yes, Zhenya didn't get an "e" at some competition but let us recall that back in 2015-18 she would literally NEVER get an "e" call. I think the only time she got a call was Ondrej Nepela.
3. The Cup Final thing is a little more odd, but again, that doesn't take away from the fact that when she was with Eteri the lutz would go uncalled 99% of the time, yet when she left it would be uncalled maybe only 50% or less. from almost 100 to 50 percent. That's quite a big drop.

 

[nussnacker]

(I have no idea if this is sarcasm or not but I'm responding as if it weren't):
1. I looked at IDF protocols and um I'm pretty sure they called out almost everyone?
2. Yes, Zhenya didn't get an "e" at some competition but let us recall that back in 2015-18 she would literally NEVER get an "e" call. I think the only time she got a call was Ondrej Nepela.
3. The Cup Final thing is a little more odd, but again, that doesn't take away from the fact that when she was with Eteri the lutz would go uncalled 99% of the time, yet when she left it would be uncalled maybe only 50% or less. from almost 100 to 50 percent. That's quite a big drop.

3 out of 3 Mariah's lutzes weren't called, and Alina got an E. If that isn't some double standard I don't know what is.
For the record, according to Skating Scores, Evgenia's lutz in those 2 years (15-17) with Eteri was called a total of 7 times, if I'm not mistaken. The Final thing doesn't suit that score dropping theory, neither does Sasha's PCS increase in the free, so let's just cut it out.
Now that I think about it, she also used to jump lutz only once, with Orser she started going for 2-3 lutzes, so her chances of getting called increased by 100-200%. There’s your % increase.

 

[Alex65]

And it will soon be level 2, really ridiculous, that's what happens when you are trained by a publicist who only knows about shows of ice and nothing more... not even the biggest fan of Plushenko can defend this, Trusova is supposed to be Juliet or Shakespeare himself, so what does this reggaeton dance movement have to do with the skating of R&J. According to the sectarian fans, Sasha is not Juliet, of course, now she is surely playing a cabaret girl, only that explains that senseless dance in the program.

If you are so well versed in choreography, please explain to me what image Camila is portraying, given her 14 years old age, and how multiple movements of the arms and legs are associated with this, like a martial artist. She karate -panda doing gymnastics ?? Or who?

 

[colormyworld240]

The last part of Anna’s FS was originally choreographed to very slow, solemn music. The new music on the other hand is fast and upbeat and generally totally different. And yet you‘re trying to tell me it doesn‘t matter if the choreography stays entirely the same as long as her (facial) interpretation changes? Sure, she‘s better at masking it than Liza was because she‘s just a better performer. But in the end, the fact doesn‘t change that her choreography doesn‘t fit the music at all. Anna‘s good that she “doesn’t need favors from Daniil“ but even she can‘t save a misfit of a program. The program itself isn‘t even bad but the fact that he thinks he can just change the music without any obvious changes to the choreography is pretty disrespectful in itself. Still, Anna wins easily on PCS based on presentation and interpretation. Transitions are closer but I agree with you that even here she should score higher. Skating skills and composition go to Sasha but it‘s not that obvious of advantage here either, considering that Sasha‘s program isn‘t exactly the greatest R&J ever and at times just plain awkward.

As for the lutz edge discussion... it‘s as old as time. My opinion is that her lutz is flat, sometimes inside. As for Daria... her edge has improved but imo, it‘s still a pretty bad flutz. Not Medvedeva level flutz but still a flutz.

Not just her face, it's mostly in her body. You're trying to tell me that when watching Anna's free in isolation at the Russian Cup that the choreography or her performance doesn't fit the music? Which parts? Because it looks beautiful to me, and if I didn't know that it was originally choreographed to another piece, I wouldn't think anything of it. She comes alive with the music change and I don't see anywhere where her movements are unfit for the music. Programs are scored for what is on the ice the day of competition, not prior music changes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the CO criteria is only to judge the skated program, not the history of it before competition or what goes on in Daniil's head. And yes I am definitely in agreement that music should never be changed while keeping the same choreography, but in this case it doesn't affect the execution of the program and I don't see an issue based on the program that Anna put on the ice. If it were a mismatch, she should be losing not only in composition but also performance and interpretation because it would be clear she can't save the program.

Yes the edge discussion is an old one, but I have yet to see one where she takes off inside. Flutzes are inside edge lutzes, flat edge lutzes are unclear edge ones. None of Anna's lutzes at Russian Cup warrants an e call to me, an ! yes, but then others should be getting an e if they're actually on the wrong edge which didn't happen either.

 

[flanker]

We are all biased. Aren't you?

Me? Biased? Such word is not present in my vocabulary.

 

[JazzUp]

If you are so well versed in choreography, please explain to me what image Camila is portraying, given her 14 years old age, and how multiple movements of the arms and legs are associated with this, like a martial artist. She karate -panda doing gymnastics ?? Or who?

Seems you've never ever seen Boléro with Maya Plisetskaya choreographed by Maurice Béjart, right?

​

 

[karina17]

It's October, a competition has just wrapped up, and GS is fighting over coach changes on the Russian Ladies' Thread.

My favourite time of the year! I'm so glad we get to have it again after such a long drought.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

If you are so well versed in choreography, please explain to me what image Camila is portraying, given her 14 years old age, and how multiple movements of the arms and legs are associated with this, like a martial artist. She karate -panda doing gymnastics ?? Or who?

(Multidimensional use of space with) multiple movements of the arms and legs (matching the music phrase) are the base for a good CO score. She can portrait karate-panda, the wind, the dust or the neutrons around the atom, it's not matter at all what she is portraying, if the portrait exists. Or it can be also about creating a mood, as chaos, sadness, nostalgia etc etc

 

[Dogo]

Control your nerves !!! What can you call controlling your nerves to someone who falls 2 times when they already knew they had won, because Valieva's 3 falls gave Trusova the victory instantly, she knew that she should only land a combined quad even if she fell into the another 2 quads to win. Say that Trusova controls her nerves if today Valieva skates well and scores 175 points and then Trusova does the skating of her life and surpasses it, it is incredible the mistakes that Trusova made skating with 0 pressure ...

Another thing, for all those who say that it is still too early for Usacheva and Valieva to be in front of seniors, I remind you that Trusova and Shcherbakova at 14 crushed all Russian seniors like Zagitova, Tuktamysheva and Medvedeva in 2018, both being juniors.

Most skaters are not checking on others before it's their turn to skate. During the test skates, everyone was VERY focused on themselves. (An example: Alina was super focused before her Olympic skate that I swear she probably didn't even hear the music of her competitors, same as Grand Prix Final last year with Anna, Sasha, and Aliona, not even Yuzuru checks on Nathan before his turn to skate as it breaks his concentration). And Trusova doesn't strike me as someone who would waste time on checking others. Her battle is with herself, as we have seen time and time again that she builds up excitement for displaying what her jump arsenal is and likes to demonstrate what she is capable of doing to the audience. This becomes anxiousness and likely nerves right before she starts skating. What probably made the situation worst was the feeling of frustration she had with herself that was likely increased by her coaching environment. An environment that used to help her before (and that it's beneficial for others) not necessarily will help her now. From the small interactions we've seen so far, she looks more at ease with her environment and that's great! This, plus the fact that she is also becoming more emotionally mature, could possibly help her control her nerves.

Also, is that Lipnitskaya in your profile pic? She looks adorable with the rabbit (and she was cheering for Trusova on IG)

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

3 out of 3 Mariah's lutzes weren't called, and Alina got an E. If that isn't some double standard I don't know what is.
For the record, according to Skating Scores, Evgenia's lutz in those 2 years (15-17) with Eteri was called a total of 7 times, if I'm not mistaken. The Final thing doesn't suit that score dropping theory, neither does Sasha's PCS increase in the free, so let's just cut it out.
Now that I think about it, she also used to jump lutz only once, with Orser she started going for 2-3 lutzes, so her chances of getting called increased by 100-200%. There’s your % increase.

Mariah's lutzes weren't called, yes, but you know whose was? Kaori's, Starr's, Wakaba's... etc. So no they weren't biased against the Russians, it seemed they were just blind with Mariah (yes she should be getting !'s)
Okay let's look at the scores from Zhenya's 2015-18 seasons.
Her highest scoring lutzes (I'm only doing international):
1. 2019 WC
2. 2017 WTT
3. 2018 OLY
4. 2019 Autumn Classic (but ! call)
5. 2017 WC
6. 2016 WC
7. 2015 GPRUS
8. 2017 GPRUS
9. 2016 EC
10. 2015 Ondrej Nepela

And then the ones that got called "e":
1. 2019 GPCAN
2. 2019 Shanghai Trophy
3. 2019 GPRUS
4. 2018 GPCAN
5. 2019 Autumn Classic
6. 2017 Ondrej Nepela

If you notice, besides 2 from post-Eteri, all of the high scoring lutzes were from Eteri time, while all of the ones rightfully called "e" were from post-Eteri (except for the one at Ondrej Nepela). A ! call still garnering + GOE when it should obviously be "e" with negative GOE is still an incorrect call.

She may have jumped it more, but that's not my point. I was predicting not by how many "e" calls, but the percentage of her lutzes being called (as I should be because I considered this fact).

Since I'm taking AP Stats in school and I find the subject itself very interesting why don't we calculate the percentage of her lutz being called "!", "e" or no call from 2015-16 to 2019-20?

1. 2015-16
   1. Number of lutzes attempted: 6
   2. Number of lutzes called "!": 1
   3. Number of lutzes called "e": 0
   4. Percentage of being called "!": 17%
   5. Percentage of being called "e": 0%
   6. Total percent called: 17%
2. 2016-17
   1. Number of lutzes attempted: 6
   2. Number of lutzes called "!": 3
   3. Number of lutzes called "e": 0
   4. Percentage of being called "!": 50%
   5. Percentage of being called "e": 0%
   6. Total percent called: 50%
3. 2017-18
   1. Number of lutzes attempted: 5
   2. Number of lutzes called "!": 1
   3. Number of lutzes called "e": 1
   4. Percentage of being called "!": 20%
   5. Percentage of being called "e": 20%
   6. Total percent called: 40%
4. 2018-19
   1. Number of lutzes attempted: 9
   2. Number of lutzes called "!": 5
   3. Number of lutzes called "e": 1
   4. Percentage of being called "!": 56%
   5. Percentage of being called "e": 11%
   6. Total percent called: 67%
5. 2019-20
   1. Number of lutzes attempted: 8
   2. Number of lutzes called "!": 4
   3. Number of lutzes called "e": 4
   4. Percentage of being called "!": 50%
   5. Percentage of being called "e": 50%
   6. Total percent called: 100%

I don't know about you but from an average of 36% to an average of 83.5%... that seems like quite the increase for me.
(But yes, Sasha's PCS were way over scored in the free, that I agree with. The chances of your lutz being called if you aren't with Eteri, well the stats are up there for you to see).

 

[Edwin]

are there reliable sites with these statistics? i.e. protocol aggregators?

 

[dunffvanstorn]

I've amended your post a bit, think it reflects the situation more.

Oh, and poor Gnome (Gnom Gnomych is Sasha Plyushenko's nickname) couldn't escape that evil fate too, by the way:
View attachment 1457

Plyushenko:"Taste, aesthetics? Nope, never heard of them."

I think people are overthinking and sexualizing a dance move. Hip movements are present in many cultures and don't represent sexual movements. People thinking about it is what makes it sexual. I'm all in for dance representation, and hip movement is totally fine. I've been trained in ballet, ballroom dance and middle eastern dances. It offends me to see that people are so close-minded with dance expression. She was not twerking for God's sake.

 

[yume]

then you must have missed this chez d'oeuvre of choreography:
View attachment 1448
View attachment 1449

Plyushenko + Juliet = Sex Bombuliet

Why that kind of move is in a R&J program?
There was once a thread about skaters' costumes inspired by other skaters' costumes. I want to see a thread about skaters' programs inspired by other skaters. Even if half of it would be about Danill. There is already so much "data"

By the way i saw on another site that the move that he stole from avant-garde Medvedeva was in Miyahara's, Xiangyi An's (apparently Richaud recycle moves too since he choreographed both programs) and Sinitsyna's programs from last season.

 

[Alex65]

Seems you've never ever seen Bolero with Maya Plisetskaya choreographed by Maurice Béjart, right?

​

I have seen many interpretations of Balero, from Bejart and others. There are also several versions of Balero on Ice. Are you saying this is the ice version of Bejart? Are you sure? Me not. All ballet versions are characterized by movement of the body, mainly the lower part, in a strictly monotonous rhythm of the music. The upper body, arms and head create an emotional color by following the amplitude and fullness of the music, creating the tension of the moment. It was at T&D. Camila's program includes many movements of all parts of the body that occur at any time in her program, regardless of the music. Sometimes it gets into accents and rhythm, sometimes it doesn't. In my eyes, this has nothing to do with the traditional ballet perception of Ravel's Balero. Maybe there are some modern interpretations of this that I have not seen. Or is it just a set of movements beautifully done on the ice by a beautiful girl?

 

[dunffvanstorn]

Plushenko had enough time to make Sasha's flip edge flat or even wrong, so I believe in him.

Not being with Eteri anymore is what made her flip being called. She already lipped with Eteri. Go do your research.