2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[flanker]

I don't think I do. Because at the end of the day, the reason I like a skater stems from a performance (for example, Daria because of the Moscow City Championships, Marin because of 2017 WJC, Sasha because of 2017 JGPF, Alyona because of 2017 JGP Poland). But maybe for Daria I really do evaluate based off her skills, taken away from choreography or music, because the choreography (at least this season) is really not very good. Here, I'll evaluate her performance of the SP anyways:

1. She really holds out her movements and takes her time in the opening choreography. She actually holds her movements, at least to the point where they don't looked rushed, everywhere. It's really nice to see and despite pretty cluttered choreography, she still manages to make it look easy and neat.
2. Her arm movements are super nice, they are graceful, and plentiful, without looking like she's waving them around.
3. lovely transitions into and out of 2A (though I like the spread eagle better)
4. Wonderful transitions into the 3Lz too, the split jump has a lot of power. Of course, 3Lze, but we all know that.
5. Spins are all great, pretty centered, a lot better than last season.
6. Her arms in crossovers are so nice, they stay stable and constant and don't move around.
7. Good spiral, though I do dislike how she kicks her leg into the flip.
8. An amazing ina Bauer, that goes right along with the music! I love how she can get her back so bent despite the ina bauer lasting like a millisecond long.
9. Wonderful speed in the step sequence.
10. When the music begins to soften in the step sequence, her movements get a lot more soft and slow, and like tentative (but in a good way).
11. Really good posture overall, especially in the step sequence.
12. Overall really great movement with the arms, and upper body.
13. Her skating skills are really great too! Good speed, good control and wonderful flow.
14. She does a wonderful job of building intensity as the music builds as well (especially with arm movement).
15. I also really like the twiddles in which she has her arms above her head, really shows her wonderful posture.
16. Could do with less one second spirals in the step sequence though. And when the song sings "why live life from dream to dream", the leap could be higher and a little more dramatic.
17. The movement she does at "when dreaming ends" is super pretty.
18. Actually, doing this made me like her SP so much more! Thank you!

Of course the choreo is not very good, who would doubt about it

This started by the note about the skating being "full of emotions", that caused the reactions you got. I can agree on many of those points, others can be discussed (like what looks "rushed" seems to depend more on the preferences for particular skater - that doesn't comet just from this case BTW), though I don't think there is a siginificant difference. Also, I just don't see the necessity to put one skater over another just now. This all all together truly gives the idea of little bias.

 

[Jontor]

Actually, there should be no problem with anyone saying Daria is better at XYZ/more refined than Kamila. There are others in this thread, who have been the majority for a while, who have gone on about how Kamila is better at XYZ than not only Daria, but her other teammates, all of the juniors, and seniors too For years now, actually. That’s fine, too— just opinions.

Kamila did have a bad FS, but she had a great SP. After the SP there were many people (including myself) giving similar praise to Daria’s excellent qualities and ways that she shines compared to her teammate. There were also people giving huge praises to Kamila, and saying she’s the best skater in the world. Which, I certainly don’t agree with, but that’s a fine opinion to have. It goes both ways. It’s not personal against any other skater, or any other fan.

The idea that I, or anyone, should hold back their praises of Daria, or not talk constructively about what we saw in competition, because Kamila had a bad skate, is absurd. Why are we on this forum if we can’t discuss our favorites? Why are we on this forum if we can’t discuss what happened at a competition?

Daria is my favorite junior, and has been since before she was a junior internationally, and I won’t be shy to praise her when she does well. I’m also happy many people, moreso now than ever, are outspoken about how lovely she is There’s no issue in any of this. If you chose to place bad intent in this, that’s your problem, not anyone else’s.

And we mustn't forget, in the real world, Daria actually beat Kamila. Had it been in Jr RusNats, Senior RusNats, JGP or any other competition - the result was that Daria came second not third. It was those bonus points that gave Kamila the edge. But they are worthless in any real competition.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

So, what you are saying really is that Frolova is not as good because Usacheva has a better coach?

oddly enough, kind of? Better might not be the right word, but coaching definitely plays a part. Frolova's skating is just too plain? I don't know how to say it honestly.

 

[bubblecherry]

And we mustn't forget, in the real world, Daria actually beat Kamila. Had it been in Jr RusNats, Senior RusNats, JGP or any other competition - the result was that Daria came second not third. It was those bonus points that gave Kamila the edge. But they are worthless in any real competition.

I think a lot of people are noticing Daria more now, and I hope she’ll have more momentum on her side after this competition If she keeps skating clean, and especially if she gets that 3A, then she’s a huge threat.

 

[Resa]

For Kamila, they were desperately trying to put her second and several judges broke the rules in judging, which states:

If in the program there is 1 serious mistake, max score are:
-SS, Transitions, Composition – max score 9.75
-Performance, Interpretation – max score 9.50

If in the program there are serous mistakes, max scores are:
-SS, Transitions, Composition – max score 9.25
-Performance, Interpretation – max score 8.75

Serious mistakes are falls, interruptions and another mistakes, that affect the integrity, continuity, fluidity of the composition and / or its conformity to the music.
This should be applies to an athlete of any level, from very low to an outstanding.

Kamila fell definitely in the second score group, but we see something different:

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/10/3c22c7af0edb99acfd46a837636c0c25.png

That's interesting! I didn't know that PCS are capped at a specific point. I always thought they would just randomly lower each category

 

[flanker]

Sasha has nothing to do with it. You missed the meaning of what I said. The Eteri PCS bonus did not work with Kamila in this case due to a restriction in the rules. If she fell only once, the PCS estimates would be completely different. Do you doubt it? You will see her at the next competition.

You mentioned "breaking the rules", but you see that only in case convenient to your agenda, which is to persuade the whole world about how the corrupted system tries to push particular skaters, to which I'm simply pointing you separate them simply by who coaches them, which is wrong. Eteri skater Daria received PCS lower than she deserved, Plushenko skater Stanislava in comparison received PCS much higher than she deserved (two points margin is truly sad), and the "breaking the rules" also isn't related only to Kamila, because Sasha also receives some marks higher than she should according to rules. So, while I can agree on that some skaters are evaluated more and some less than they should, the border doesn't run between the teams.

 

[Alex65]

You mentioned "breaking the rules", but you see that only in case convenient to your agenda, which is to persuade the whole world about how the corrupted system tries to push particular skaters, to which I'm simply pointing you separate them simply by who coaches them, which is wrong. Eteri skater Daria received PCS lower than she deserved, Plushenko skater Stanislava in comparison received PCS much higher than she deserved (two points margin is truly sad), and the "breaking the rules" also isn't related only to Kamila, because Sasha also receives some marks higher than she should according to rules. So, while I can agree on that some skaters are evaluated more and some less than they should, the border doesn't run between the teams.

You are wrong about Sasha. It's just by the way.
She only has one fall. Sasha's limitations do not apply in this case. About Daria. Of course, you will consider this another attack, but I will say it anyway. Think of Camila's commercial from the beginning of this season. It is being promoted as a "supernova" star, "Russia's new hope for OGM." And now she loses not only to Trusova and her quads (both the FFKR and the judges cannot do anything about it without making a huge scandal), but also to her classmate, whom few people know and did not take into account before this start. It would be a complete fiasco. I also think that Daria should have received silver here. But I'm not FFKR.

 

[flanker]

Actually, there should be no problem with anyone saying Daria is better at XYZ/more refined than Kamila. There are others in this thread, who have been the majority for a while, who have gone on about how Kamila is better at XYZ than not only Daria, but her other teammates, all of the juniors, and seniors too For years now, actually. That’s fine, too— just opinions.

Kamila did have a bad FS, but she had a great SP. After the SP there were many people (including myself) giving similar praise to Daria’s excellent qualities and ways that she shines compared to her teammate. There were also people giving huge praises to Kamila, and saying she’s the best skater in the world. Which, I certainly don’t agree with, but that’s a fine opinion to have. It goes both ways. It’s not personal against any other skater, or any other fan.

The idea that I, or anyone, should hold back their praises of Daria, or not talk constructively about what we saw in competition, because Kamila had a bad skate, is absurd. Why are we on this forum if we can’t discuss our favorites? Why are we on this forum if we can’t discuss what happened at a competition?

Daria is my favorite junior, and has been since before she was a junior internationally, and I won’t be shy to praise her when she does well. I’m also happy many people, moreso now than ever, are outspoken about how lovely she is There’s no issue in any of this. If you chose to place bad intent in this, that’s your problem, not anyone else’s.

If you start to blame me for opposing the "free expression of an opinion", than you are on completely wrong way. Though it's not at all absurd to point out that many talks (that never appeared any time before in such amount at once) like that appeared suddenly just in the moment of Kamila's imperfect skate, that's fact. It actually isn't anything new, it's pretty common in other similar cases, it is simply easier. It is also weird how few supportive and positive words about Daria were heard e. g. after the test skates. Or when during the previous season some people talked about her as not having much chance, being much weaker than other skaters etc. No, those positive comments appeared now in such number. I have hardly any objections about praising Daria, but, once again, when I didn't hear people so much praising her in the past, I feel the right to express my doubts about the honesty of those talks.

 

[trkvy]

For Kamila, they were desperately trying to put her second and several judges broke the rules in judging, which states:

If in the program there is 1 serious mistake, max score are:
-SS, Transitions, Composition – max score 9.75
-Performance, Interpretation – max score 9.50

If in the program there are serous mistakes, max scores are:
-SS, Transitions, Composition – max score 9.25
-Performance, Interpretation – max score 8.75

Serious mistakes are falls, interruptions and another mistakes, that affect the integrity, continuity, fluidity of the composition and / or its conformity to the music.
This should be applies to an athlete of any level, from very low to an outstanding.

Kamila fell definitely in the second score group, but we see something different:

https://s8.hostingkartinok.com/uploads/images/2020/10/3c22c7af0edb99acfd46a837636c0c25.png

Cup of Russia is not ISU competition and ISU rules has nothing to do with it. RusFed has it's own rules https://fsrussia.ru/files/docs/fs_rules_rus_09_08_19_revised.pdf

 

[flanker]

You are wrong about Sasha. It's just by the way.
She only has one fall. Sasha's limitations do not apply in this case. About Daria. Of course, you will consider this another attack, but I will say it anyway. Think of Camila's commercial from the beginning of this season. It is being promoted as a "supernova" star, "Russia's new hope for OGM." And now she loses not only to Trusova and her quads (both the FFKR and the judges cannot do anything about it without making a huge scandal), but also to her classmate, whom few people know and did not take into account before this start. It would be a complete fiasco. I also think that Daria should have received silver here. But I'm not FFKR.

I've already reminded you that it doesn't matter how much you deny the reality. I am not wrong about Sasha. "Falls or serious errors".
As for Daria, I would consider her contender not for silver but gold, she was better than Sasha

I also think you put more importance to one stage of the russian cup than it has. Maybe at antionals it would have some logic, not now. And most importantly, the original line "those are Eteri skaters" is not supported by anything you said, you once again change the topic immediately when it doesn't fit your original claim.

 

[Alex65]

I've already reminded you that it doesn't matter how much you deny the reality. I am not wrong about Sasha. "Falls or serious errors".
As for Daria, I would consider her contender not for silver but gold, she was better than Sasha

I also think you put more importance to one stage of the russian cup than it has. Maybe at antionals it would have some logic, not now. And most importantly, the original line "those are Eteri skaters" is not supported by anything you said, you once again change the topic immediately when it doesn't fit your original claim.

It is sad that your obsession with the defense of Eteri does not allow for a constructive conversation with you about FS. It's like a deaf talking to a mute.

 

[Jontor]

Cup of Russia is not ISU competition and ISU rules has nothing to do with it. RusFed has it's own rules https://fsrussia.ru/files/docs/fs_rules_rus_09_08_19_revised.pdf

Does it say anywhere in there how the bonus points works at the Russian Cup? I'm still not sure how it works ladies contra men.

 

[Alex65]

Cup of Russia is not ISU competition and ISU rules has nothing to do with it. RusFed has it's own rules https://fsrussia.ru/files/docs/fs_rules_rus_09_08_19_revised.pdf

Again you are bringing disinformation here.
For those who do not speak Russian: The first lines of this document explicitly state that this document was developed on the basis of the ISU rules and is valid for all competitions within Russia
The text does not differ from the official ISU rules.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

If you startř to blame me for opposing the "free expression of an opinion", than you are on completely wrong way. Though it's not at all absurd to point out that many talks (that never appeared any time before in such amount at once) like that appeared suddenly just in the moment of Kamila's imperfect skate, that's fact. It actually isn't anything new, it's pretty common in other similar cases, it is simply easier. It is also weird how few supportive and positive words about Daria were heard e. g. after the test skates. Or when during the previous season some people talked about her as not having much chance, being much weaker than other skaters etc. No, those positive comments appeared now in such number. I have hardly any objections about praising Daria, but, once again, when I didn't hear people so much praising her in the past, I feel the right to express my doubts about the honesty of those talks.

Do you expect that there are anti-Kamila spies in here ready to open their laptops and type as many great things about Daria as they can on their fifty different accounts just to get the entire crowd against her for the Olympic Games? Can you please stop assuming the worst of all posters here? Like, Daria did good at this competition, don't take that away from her by being like: "oh people only like you now because Kamila didn't do well". That's so unfair towards her, and towards us, those who like her. Have you thought about why the praise for Daria was less at test skates? Here's the reason, her programs felt super messy and like copy and pastes of her programs last season. But here, she showed immense improvement and her skating skills and step sequences seem to have improved massively from last season too. Last season, she was a shaky skater, always making slight mistakes here and there. Once she got consistent, the story changed. I don't know if it is because we like to go on different platforms or what not, but after JWC 2020 I actually saw tons of people complimenting Daria and saying she was a very mature performer. Like, complimenting Daria doesn't mean I hate Kamila. Have you ever thought that hey! Maybe Daria just did really get at this event and that has nothing to do with Kamila? It does feel really unfair that you see the people who are complimenting Daria as fakes because I know that at the very least, I really do love her and her skating, and seeing you say things like "you probably only found her impressive today because Kamila didn't do good" is quite rude.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Does it say anywhere in there how the bonus points works at the Russian Cup? I'm still not sure how it works ladies contra men.

I would like to know too! I know quads and 3As (I think?) get bonus points as do good spins, but I'm not sure about mens or what a good spin really is.

 

[Jontor]

oddly enough, kind of? Better might not be the right word, but coaching definitely plays a part. Frolova's skating is just too plain? I don't know how to say it honestly.

Yeah, it was very obvious back in Stage One when Talalaykina skated just before Frolova. Maria doesn't have the tech but she got the hell of a fantastic choreographed program, then came Frolova and gave us - nothing. It was like night and day. Frolova beat Talalaykina by 20+ points of course in the end, but performance wise - Talalaykina was the real winner. Sadly, that doesn't matter much these days and I am kind of ambivalent to that, I do like good and difficult tech, but great programs like Talalaykina's don't get enough credit.

And now I get a chance to promote Talalaykina's program - again! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGG7cZg-pKk&t=288s

I was initially going to rant about how good Eteri and her minions are in packaging their skaters...but I won't go there

 

[Shayuki]

I would like to know too! I know quads and 3As (I think?) get bonus points as do good spins, but I'm not sure about mens or what a good spin really is.

At least before the +5 GOE system it used to require +2GOE and lvl 4 for spins.

I'm not sure but maybe it's like +3GOE with these new rules that's required.

For quads I'm not sure about the specifics. Spins are +1 bonus point and quads +2 bonus points, I believe.

 

[kirauza343]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I think everything you have said is thoughtful and reasonable and appreciated for that rarity.

I think that the capabilities of advanced data analytics are probably far beyond my imagination. I am therefore inclined to accept, for conjecture, that machine learning can perform measurements of stature through motion capture that would easily accommodate adjustment for technique based on size and shape.

I would raise the question of how much of such compensation we would like to see applied to a sporting contest. Usaine Bolt was a very tall sprinter, should we ask him to meet his competition stride for stride, or meter by meter? Different physiques offer different dynamics to be played upon a level field - a slender, tall frame may rotate more quickly, but a more solid frame may be more stable in balance.

Complete liberation from bias is, I think, a logical falacy. Centuries of philosophy has parsed the relationship of perception and reality and remains confounded. But if we can decrease the perception of bias, reason stands that, in opposition thereof, we would move toward an increase in the perception of objectivity.

What do you think?

It’s a really interesting topic!

Sprinting is a little different than figure skating for machine judging. What has to be compensated for in figure skating is making sure the machine can judge skaters fairly for what they put out, not that the skaters themselves are on an equal playing field. A taller sprinter might have an advantage in how fast they can run, but the technology that judges if they have a fair start or how fast they run the race is independent of that.

Figure skating is so much more complex from a machine judging perspective. Every jump, every spin, every element has so many different factors that go into judging them. The technology for keeping time for a sprinting event doesn’t care how tall someone is; just who gets to the line first (and if it’s too close to call we get a visual of who crossed first which we can measure objectively). But for figure skating there’s still a huge level of subjectivity even with clear GOE bullet points (hence all the arguments over human judging) that is hard to incorporate into an as-objective-as-possible AI.

Getting rid of bias completely I agree is likely impossible, but being aware of it can help reduce it!

 

[trkvy]

Again you are bringing disinformation here.
For those who do not speak Russian: The first lines of this document explicitly state that this document was developed on the basis of the ISU rules and is valid for all competitions within Russia
The text does not differ from the official ISU rules.

That's not true. This documents states that it is composed 'taking in account' ('с учетом') ISU rules, and says nothing about PCS scores limitations.

 

[Alex65]

At least before the +5 GOE system it used to require +2GOE and lvl 4 for spins.

I'm not sure but maybe it's like +3GOE with these new rules that's required.

For quads I'm not sure about the specifics. Spins are +1 bonus point and quads +2 bonus points, I believe.

Almost everything is correct, only for spins you need not below +4. This works the same for women and men. Seniors and juniors. I can't say anything about couples and dancing.