2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[anonymoose_au]

When you write things like "Too bad she didn't go to the wonderful, magical, never does a thing wrong Eteri",

That was my reaction to the countless posts here that suggest Liza should have gone to Eteri and if she had she could have been truly amazing.

I just don't understand posters who are like "Oh no, I totally love skater X, I wish they could podium, if only they didn't skate like they do, pick the music they do and are coached by that coach"

At that point you're (general you) not a fan of that skater's skating you might be a fan of their personality, but you do not like their skating. You want a fantasy skater, one that doesn't exist and in doing so you "damn with faint praise" the skater who does exist.

It's especially irritating in Liza's case as she's been on the scene for 10 years now. She's always skated the way she has, why is that so hard to accept?

 

[chasingneverland]

I just resent not been able to make a positive comment about Liza here without posters jumping on me and reminding me how much she sucks.

The thing is, that's not just Liza (or anyone for that matter). Every skater has v passionate fans (or fanatics/keyboard warriors haha) and v passionate critics, often irrationally so on both sides. And often it's not objective, it's just because it's not someone's favourite skater or because it is someone's favourite skater. And don't worry, Eteri's skaters have plenty of detractors too, Kamila and especially Anna have plenty of critics - some even frequent posters on this forum. As as for Alina, Alena, and Evgenia, they have plenty of critics themselves or have you not paid attention? Most posters here agree, especially in the cases of Evgenia and Alina that they are essentially retired/washed up/their careers are over. Now, whether that's true or not remains to be seen; however, yes, if any of them attempted a quad it would be praised but not because they are/were Eteri skaters but because (1) it would be unexpected and (2) might just save their careers. And no, Liza isn't the only one who receives criticism in fact I would argue some people like her because she's not one of Eteri's skaters. Same with Sasha and Veronika, actually, regardless of their crazy talent - which is absurd btw.

 

[chasingneverland]

It's especially irritating in Liza's case as she's been on the scene for 10 years now. She's always skated the way she has, why is that so hard to accept?

I think it's BECAUSE she's been on the scene for 10 years now with very little difference in her skating - until recently. And while she is (1) amazingly talented and (2) dynamic on the ice she does have flaws (so does everyone else though); however, there hasn't really been a noticeable attempt to try to improve upon them. And she needs to - they can't keep ignoring them and hope for the best and that that's good enough to make the teams. And I KNOW they're trying - everything looks sooo much better this year - super impressive!! But that's also disappointing too because where were these improvements incrementally earlier? For example, Sasha has had similar criticisms in the past - empty programs/lack of expression/all jumps/weaker spins and SS/etc - but they're working on it - especially in her short program she looked soooo much better!! Another example, Anna's spins used to be kinda crazy but recently they've become sooo much more centred.

I think accepting how you have skated in the past IS a flaw!! It's hard to accept because IT SHOULD BE!

 

[anonymoose_au]

however, there hasn't really been a noticeable attempt to try to improve upon them. And she needs too - they can't keep ignoring them and hope for the best and that that's good enough to make the teams. And I KNOW they're trying - everything looks sooo much better this year - super impressive!! But that's also disappointing too because where were these improvements incrementally earlier?

This is not direct at you, but it seems to me that a large number of posters answer this by saying "Because Mishin is a washed up old dinosaur of a coach." They never give Liza's team the benefit of the doubt, they immediately assume the worst as if for some reason it hasn't occurred to them that figure skating is actually an extremely difficult sport. That you can train and train and might still not be able to do something. Maybe they've tried adding more transitions but it looked clunky or interfered too much with the jumps. Liza had a back injury and couldn't do Beillmanns without reinjurying herself, but was any leeway given for that by these people.

I understand this is a discussion, but some posters seem so certain that they know how to fix every little problem a skater has that I can only wonder if they're coaches, because if they're as brilliant as they think they are they're certainly depriving the sport by not being coaches!

For example, Sasha has had similar criticisms in the past - empty programs/lack of expression/all jumps/weaker spins and SS/etc - but they're working on it - especially in her short program she looked soooo much better!!

Perhaps, but from my reading of this thread you're in the minority and that brings up more issues - Liza has to skate in a new way, her image is boring and stale. However, Sasha is trying a new style and suddenly it's all "You can't change her! She's not made for lyrical music! This is embarassing"

Half the time it's the exact same poster so do they want skaters to try new things or don't they? Does the skater need to consult them first to avoid getting flak from them or what?

 

[chasingneverland]

This is not direct at you, but it seems to me that a large number of posters answer this by saying "Because Mishin is a washed up old dinosaur of a coach." They never give Liza's team the benefit of the doubt, they immediately assume the worst as if for some reason it hasn't occurred to them that figure skating is actually an extremely difficult sport. That you can train and train and might still not be able to do something. Maybe they've tried adding more transitions but it looked clunky or interfered too much with the jumps. Liza hada back injury and couldn't do Beillmanns without reinjurying herself, but was any leeway given for that by these people.

I understand this is a discussion, but some posters seem so certain that they know how to fix every little problem a skater has that I can only wonder if they're coaches, because if they're as brilliant as they think they are they're certainly depriving the sport by not being coaches!



Perhaps, but from my reading of this thread you're in the minority and that brings up more issues - Liza has to skate in a new way, her image is boring and stale. However, Sasha is trying a new style and suddenly it's all "You can't change her! She's not made for lyrical music! This is embarassing"

Half the time it's the exact same poster so do they want skaters to try new things or don't they? Does the skater need to consult them first to avoid getting flak from them or what?

Agreed. People who assume "Mishin is a washed up old dinosaur" are at the minimum incredibly simplifying the situation, after all it's easier said then done particularly from the perspective of behind a computer. I would not presume to know more than a world-renowned figure skating coach whose experience certainly far far far outstrips my own, and dare I say it, everyone else on this forum. In fact, other than Liza herself, I don't think there is anyone who wants her to succeed/make Worlds/Olympic teams or who is working harder for that, than Mishin himself. I DO think Mishin is trying to evolve and learn as a coach and adjusting to the rapidly changing landscape. Liza's improvement this year alone attests to that. However, I think the frustration arises from the fact that it seems slow compared to other skaters/coaches - many who evolve not just season to season (and for whom each generation of skaters is better than the one before) but often make changes between events. This is probably because Mishin HAS had success in the past under different training regimes, requirements, and point systems.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It takes the right combination of coach and skater to make a champion. Eteri has had a disproportionate number of dominate skaters, but there are some who didn't thrive under her. Polina Tsurskaya was one of the most talented skaters I've seen, and I think the Eteri team did not do nearly enough to showcase her strengths. Liza's artistic development has kind of stalled, but there are only a handful of skaters doing jumps harder than the 3Lz outside of Eteri's current/former group, so Mishin has to be commended on that. He's also help her last beyond peers like the long-retired Adelina and Julia L.

 

[Skatesocs]

we have slow-mo expert Nadya,

Where is she now

 

[silveruskate]

When you write things like "Too bad she didn't go to the wonderful, magical, never does a thing wrong Eteri", you speak as if those are exclusively non-Eteri skaters who are criticized for faults, small or big, real or fabricated and . Which is - completely wrong. Many of them, Alina ot top, were and still are the target of the nastiest claims one can read here (not to mention their team itself), so your claims on this regard leave nothing but a bitter taste. And just the fact that sopmeone pointed out on Liza's UR jump is not a reason to play on ridiculing "wonderful, magical, never does a thing wrong Eteri" string.

As if Alina was on the top of international target lists when it comes to Eteri skaters. Such a reach. Aside from PCS she was lauded for the best 3Lz-3Lo in the game, and amazing triples and spins. All the compliments being true.

 

[chasingneverland]

It takes the right combination of coach and skater to make a champion. Eteri has had a disproportionate number of dominate skaters, but there are some who didn't thrive under her. Polina Tsurskaya was one of the most talented skaters I've seen, and I think the Eteri team did not do nearly enough to showcase her strengths. Liza's artistic development has kind of stalled, but there are only a handful of skaters doing jumps harder than the 3Lz outside of Eteri's current/former group, so Mishin has to be commended on that. He's also help her last beyond peers like the long-retired Adelina and Julia L.

I LOVED Polina!! Polina is an interesting case; however it's not like she was exactly unsuccessful. She did win almost everything in juniors (except for a junior world title) and a bronze at a GP isn't exactly anything to sneeze at. In fact she almost made the Olympic team except for three things were against her: (1) The dominance of Alina and Evgenia, (2) I think there was pushback to sending 3 Eteri skaters, and (3) she was a first year senior. I think she should have been sent to Junior Worlds that year rather than Staysa. Also, Polina did worse after leaving Eteri (although some of that could be attributed to injuries developed under Eteri). However, I think the other part of it was that Polina was mentally ready to leave and move on with the rest of her life. And she's definitely allowed to do so. Her life isn't just skating (and should never be so.) She, and others, should be free to choose to pursue whatever makes them happy, like everyone else. We aren't owed anything beyond the years they want to skate and the programs they chose to do during those years haha.

As to the handful of skaters, yes, but there is an an explosion already. In less than 4 years, I think it'll become a requirement to make a team, if not sooner. It already almost is in Russia, not just at the senior level but at the junior as well.

And that's true regarding Adelina and Yulia; however, they've already won/medaled almost everything there is to win. How much more motivation can there be to continue and I think that's part of it. I would argue despite being shorter, their resume is at least as distinguished and might be more so. I mean Yulia, especially due to her Schindler's LIst program is essentially a household name. Also, keep in mind that Liza hasn't been to Worlds (or even a Europeans) since they retired. So while her career maybe longer it hasn't really been longer at the most prestigious events.

 

[Skatesocs]

'Sasha has no emotion or interpretation'

Is this new?

I think this season people who were defending her are probably being critical of her. At the same time, I think people who were criticizing her are now praising her.

Both might be happening because of knee jerk reactions to her coaching situations these past two seasons, when it comes to some people.

At the same time, there is space to believe that last season some of the criticism against her was overblown - because no she didn't destroy figure skating. And at the same time, there is space to believe that this season some of the praise for her is overblown - because no she isn't suddenly an amazing overall skater.

 

[anonymoose_au]

And just the fact that sopmeone pointed out on Liza's UR jump

Is it under-rotated? I counted four revolutions.

Also by pointing this out - in rather nasty manner mind you - what are they suggesting? That Liza is a liar, or a cheater, or unable to count to four? Because she said it was a quad in the post.

 

[Edwin]

Live skating here:

"Medal for Mom" competition with Sof'ya and Dana Titova and a whole lot of Khrustalniy kids
Юношеские соревнования "Медаль для мамы"

and here:

"Ice Forum Cup" with Yelena Kostyleva and also with Dana Titova?
Осеннее первенство "Кубок "Айс-Форум"

here too:

"Cup of Nizhniy Novgorod"
ОНЛАЙН-ТАБЛО

and in Sankt Peterburg:

VK.com | VK

vk.com

first stage of Sankt Peterburg Cup
Кубок Петра Великого 1 этап

 

[Vilord]

Is it under-rotated? I counted four revolutions.

Also by pointing this out - in rather nasty manner mind you - what are they suggesting? That Liza is a liar, or a cheater, or unable to count to four? Because she said it was a quad in the post.

I dont understand you agenda. In my view what happend is that
1) Liza posted the 4T it was posted here.
2) People where positive (including me) and hoped she would do well this weekend and wondered how her shoulder injury was.
3) Someone pionted out that it looked to be under and there was discussions about it.
4) someone posted a verry good slomo clip of Lizas instagram post where you could see that is was indeed a bit under. (The comparison with Valieva was maybe unessesary but still)
5) You jumped in complaining that we where all hating on Liza and praising Eteri to the sky (which I dont think anyone had done in quite some time then) etc etc and then the thread spiraled out of controll.

No one is suggesting Liza was a liar for calling it a quad it is a quad but an underrotated one. Pointing out technical flaws does not make you a hater it makes you a realist. If you cant stand constructive critisism then you should just stay in the fan fests and not come here once a week and derail this thread.

 

[Edwin]

Could there be clips and flashes from Rostelekom training, so we can see which of the contestants is ready to throw ultra-si jumps?

 

[Vilord]

I was actually thinking of Aliona K's combo last event, no-one should have got positive GOE on that, I don't care who they are.

And I think every single poster here agreed with you on that the GOE for that combo was ridicoulus. An seem to remember basically every poster that comented on Aliona that weekend pointed it out but apart from that there isnt much we can do.

 

[flanker]

As if Alina was on the top of international target lists when it comes to Eteri skaters. Such a reach. Aside from PCS she was lauded for the best 3Lz-3Lo in the game, and amazing triples and spins. All the compliments being true.

Thanks for the good joke in the morning.

 

[flanker]

Is it under-rotated? I counted four revolutions.

Also by pointing this out - in rather nasty manner mind you - what are they suggesting? That Liza is a liar, or a cheater, or unable to count to four? Because she said it was a quad in the post.

There was a case when one pilot made a mistake which resulted in a crash of his plane and his death. The investigation has shown his error he wasn't aware of, but then someone came and "argumented": "but how do you want to explain to his mother that her son was an idiot?"

Sorry, that's not an argument, that's emotional blackmail and I'm not going to lose one more second with that.

 

[Edwin]

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matchtv.ru

Interview with Anastasiya Tarakanova about restarting a career, behind the scenes emotions and training with Tutberidze and Plyushchenko

 

[anonymoose_au]

There was a case when one pilot made a mistake which resulted in crash of his plane and his death. The investigation has shown his error he wasn't aware of, but then someone came and "argumented": "but how do you want to explain his mother that her son was an idiot?"

Sorry, that's not an argument, that's emotional blackmail and I'm not going to lose one more second with that.

You don't think this:

The reason it doesn't look like a quad is because it's a very underrotated downgrade

was a particularly nasty way to refer to Liza's quad? They basically said it was a triple! A "mistake" any skater would realise if that's the case, ergo this poster is categorically saying Liza is a liar or an idiot otherwise why would she say it's a quad if it's so very clearly not.

 

[flanker]

You don't think this:

was a particularly nasty way to refer to Liza's quad? They basically said it was a triple! A "mistake" any skater would realise if that's the case, ergo this poster is categorically saying Liza is a liar or an idiot otherwise why would she say it's a quad if it's so very clearly not.

I say I'm not wasting my time in this particular debate. Literally no reason for it.