2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Amei]

The international judges also love Kamila. She is the international record holder for junior PCS, I think, and junior PCS is always capped. For example: Alena, Anna, and Alina all made it into the 70s in their first international season, receiving a big boost from juniors, and their junior PCS were lower than Kamila's. Kamila is competing as a senior here, and there is no reason to expect her PCS to be much lower internationally.

Also, her jumps and spins have always gotten high GOE internationally; that's how she was able to beat Alysa with 3As and 4Lzs without having any herself. Obviously, that positive GOE on the step out shouldn't happen, this is where the overscoring happens nationally but she and Alena (and many other skaters except for Sasha apparently) have gotten lenient scores on their mistakes.

Kamila and Kaori were overscored compared to what they would receive internationally, but not by much, and I think it is fair relative to the field.

It needs to be pointed out however that Alysa was not clean on any of her quads/triple axels in the FS at the Junior GPF, she fell on the triple axel, and under-rotated the other triple axel and both quad lutz jumps.

 

[readernick]

1. The step-out should have gotten - 2 GOE, several judges gave it -1 and 0 (+1 for good air position and -3 for step-out)
2. Her SS should not have been 9.15. I'd cap it off at 8.50 for now.
3. The 3F wasn't particularly high nor large, at a different competition +4 would be warranted, but not this one.

All that considered, she would have gotten a lower competition score. Even though Kamila has better spins because the other two have better combos, better step sequences and much better skating skills (and Rika and Alyona have good spins too).

Yes, Kamila is amazing but she has a lot of growth to do. (as do all 14 year old skaters). She would not and should not get that score internationally for this performance. You highlight the reasons clearly. Kamila's 4T is a beautiful jump. However, her 3F and 3Lz aren't great jumps. Her 3A has great promise but is currently not near Rika/Alena's level of expertise. All in all, that she jumped in the SP are not the same quality as Rika/Alena. She also had a lot of flat edges during her StepSq. She is amazing, but this score is domestic inflation.

 

[Jontor]

I thought Kamila was lovely today! The 3A looks like it’s right there and the one in the warm up was phenomenal!!

But can we talk about Ksenia Tsibinova!?!??? I always thought she was a nice skater, even back in her Panova days, but she always lacked an IT-factor for me. But today I thought she was so emotive and graceful! I’d love to see her get a few international assignments in the next couple years.

Yes, let's talk about Tsibinova. I remember her last year when she was very good at the Cup stages and was the first qualifier from RC to Nationals. Unfortunately, she fell on the combination in the short at Nats and ended only 11th. Without that mistake she would have placed much higher and probably would have made the National Team instead of Guliakova. Nationals can be so unforgiven sometimes...

But yes, she seems so much more mature this season. She has really developed in the right direction. I hope she does well at Nationals later on.

 

[Vilord]

I like Kamillas skating as much as the rest of you but we need to be realistic and realise that all of the top russians have been overscored this russian cup season. Even if you remove the bonuses this score is higher than she would get internatinally by a few points but since all the other skaters are also overscored it doesnt really matter in the long run. The PCS and GOE have been verry generous for all top skaters in all 5 stages so just remove 3-5p from their score if you want to compare it internationally. National overscoring is nothing new or something only happening in Russia. I think that in many cases its just as much the national judges being so exited for their "stars" they dont remain entirely objective (Honestly who could, not me at least) as anything sinister or polittical power moves.

 

[sclloyd]

Well, forgive me if you don't agree but I think that overall Kamilla is a better skater than Rika. So that if they both are clean with the planned content I would vote for her with no hesitation and it has little to do with the national bias. I just adore her skating.

but Kamila wasn't clean.

 

[Novalis]

I like Kamillas skating as much as the rest of you but we need to be realistic and realise that all of the top russians have been overscored this russian cup season. Even if you remove the bonuses this score is higher than she would get internatinally by a few points but since all the other skaters are also overscored it doesnt really matter in the long run. The PCS and GOE have been verry generous for all top skaters in all 5 stages so just remove 3-5p from their score if you want to compare it internationally. National overscoring is nothing new or something only happening in Russia. I think that in many cases its just as much the national judges being so exited for their "stars" they dont remain entirely objective (Honestly who could, not me at least) as anything sinister or polittical power moves.

This is of course true. I've been calculating a 3-4 point inflation in the short for all these top Russian ladies (without bonuses).

So lets call Kamila's "international score" of yesterday's SP a 79,50.

She got 75 at junior Worlds. Here she had a fully rotated triple axel, but with a step out. Gains a 2-3 point advantage. The natural progression of her PCS is probably substantial in the international setting as well. And her 3lz-3t was actually much better here.

So quit whining people (not talking to you Vilord). You really have no case! I'm sick of people always feeling threatened by Kamila after she skates well, threatened for their favorite skater, and taking it out here.

 

[zounger]

Well, if you remove the three point bonus rule she earned from her spins, the score is really 83.2. I don’t think it is that unreasonable. Alina got over 80 without a triple axel.

Alina never got such scores as a junior. I think your comparison is not so successful. The score is high because is domestic competition and they can score it us they like. Though they show what tendency should the judges follow next season at international level.

We seen the scores in Russian GP which were a bit closer in internationals standards.

 

[eterialskating]

1. The step-out should have gotten - 2 GOE, several judges gave it -1 and 0 (+1 for good air position and -3 for step-out)
2. Her SS should not have been 9.15. I'd cap it off at 8.50 for now.
3. The 3F wasn't particularly high nor large, at a different competition +4 would be warranted, but not this one.

All that considered, she would have gotten a lower competition score. Even though Kamila has better spins because the other two have better combos, better step sequences and much better skating skills (and Rika and Alyona have good spins too).

All these would and should but ignoring the fact Kostornaia can't even consistently hit her spin and step sequences levels these days and no she doesn't have nor had a better step sequence than Kamila. She can't even match Zagitova in that aspect much less Medvedeva in her prime. Kihira is barely above Zagitova's SP program without 2A. What makes you think judges aren't going to give Valieva the points to go over her score? Kihira has never had wow factor IMO. She is the type of skater who is only memorable when they do a clean program. Miyahara could UR and pop and she'd still look good. I remember people said Kihira was going to be better than Mao both artistically and in achievements. That is not going to happen.

Kamila's detractors it seems are already busying themselves with scenarios that are getting slimmer by the day. Her rivals should be putting out maximum performances and giving a good account of themselves instead of relying on reputation and historical ability. We need to see their level now so we can put them in their pecking order. Kostornaya it seems has already found hers.

 

[readernick]

This is of course true. I've been calculating a 3-4 point inflation in the short for all these top Russian ladies (without bonuses).

So lets call Kamila's "international score" of yesterday's SP a 79,50.

She got 75 at junior Worlds. Here she had a fully rotated triple axel, but with a step out. Gains a 2-3 point advantage. The natural progression of her PCS is probably substantial in the international setting as well. And her 3lz-3t was actually much better here.

So quit whining people (not talking to you Vilord). You really have no case! I'm sick of people always feeling threatened by Kamila after she skates well, threatened for their favorite skater, and taking it out here.

No problem with Kamila. She is very likely to be on the Olympic podium and justifiably. There is also no doubt she will score well next year barring injury or sudden growth. It just isn’t accurate to say that she would have gotten this score internationally. A score of between 76-78 would be more likely, if clean she will certainly challenge for the top SP score but not with this performance. Everyone getting upset about people’s minor valid criticisms of Kamila feels completely free to criticize other skaters and in a much less constructive way. A bit ironic? Anyway, everyone likes different skaters and different styles. We would benefit from chilling out a bit, it’s figure skating not politics.

 

[Novalis]

No problem with Kamila. She is very likely to be in the Olympic podium and justifiably. There is also no doubt she will score well next year. It just isn’t accurate to say that she would have gotten this score internationally. A score of between 76-78 would be more likely, if clean she will certainly challenge for the top SP score.

If she got 75 at jr. Worlds, then surely your 76-78 is totally wrong. See my explanation above

 

[Lunalovesskating]

Wishing a Happy St. Nikolaus day to everyone who celebrates it
Hope you did not get a visit from Krampus or Knecht Ruprecht

 

[nussnacker]

The international judges also love Kamila. She is the international record holder for junior PCS, I think, and junior PCS is always capped. For example: Alena, Anna, and Alina all made it into the 70s in their first international season, receiving a big boost from juniors, and their junior PCS were lower than Kamila's. Kamila is competing as a senior here, and there is no reason to expect her PCS to be much lower internationally.

Also, her jumps and spins have always gotten high GOE internationally; that's how she was able to beat Alysa with 3As and 4Lzs without having any herself. Obviously, that positive GOE on the step out shouldn't happen, this is where the overscoring happens nationally but she and Alena (and many other skaters except for Sasha apparently) have gotten lenient scores on their mistakes.

Kamila and Kaori were overscored compared to what they would receive internationally, but not by much, and I think it is fair relative to the field.

But Kamila didn’t get positive GOE on her step out. Majority have her -2 (just like people suggested she should get), she got 2 0s and a -1. Not all 7 judges were accurate, but I think it’s to be expected in every competition, that’s why averages are calculated and 2 extremes are dropped.
On the other hand on Russian cup we saw skaters get 0 or positive GOE overall on step outs that looked worse and on turnouts out of their jumps. So considering that it’s a national judging, I think in Kamila’s case she was given fair scores.
I can imagine international judges being stricter than here, cause obviously this is a domestic competition, but even with lowering her SS score and worse GOE on 3A and flip (and removing bonuses), she’d still earn close to 82 points. The quality of her other elements helps her score greatly.

 

[karina17]

Can we stop acting like all step-outs are equal mistakes and should be punished equally at the suggested -3. There are big, dramatic, clear loss-of-balance step-outs which interrupt the program as badly as any fall. Then there are little, barely-even-there stepouts that could almost pass for a transition out.

I remember one time (GPF? Euros? Can't remember) where a commentator watched Anna step out of a quad and said something along the lines of "There's the mistake - if it even counts as one, really", because it was so minor. On the other hand you have step-outs where you start wondering if the technical panel will consider it a fall or not because of how harsh it was.

Obviously not all step-outs are going to receive the same penalty. -2 is perfectly reasonable for Kamila's stepout which was quite minor as compared to others we've seen. Two judges giving -1 is still reasonable considering it's national judging and the jump was beautiful otherwise.

 

[flanker]

1. The step-out should have gotten - 2 GOE, several judges gave it -1 and 0 (+1 for good air position and -3 for step-out)
2. Her SS should not have been 9.15. I'd cap it off at 8.50 for now.
3. The 3F wasn't particularly high nor large, at a different competition +4 would be warranted, but not this one.

All that considered, she would have gotten a lower competition score. Even though Kamila has better spins because the other two have better combos, better step sequences and much better skating skills (and Rika and Alyona have good spins too).

Unless there is something that gives instant -5 to Kamila , I think -1 is perfectly fine. It's not just the air position, how about effortless throughout, IMO good height and lenght. It is also remarkable how some people remain silent when a particular skater gets even positive GOE for a step-out, while they immediately rush to complain about other skater, who got negative GOE, though "we like her but..."
(And I see I'm not the only one who noticed that.)

 

[Scott512]

All these would and should but ignoring the fact Kostornaia can't even consistently hit her spin and step sequences levels these days and no she doesn't have nor had a better step sequence than Kamila. She can't even match Zagitova in that aspect much less Medvedeva in her prime. Kihira is barely above Zagitova's SP program without 2A. What makes you think judges aren't going to give Valieva the points to go over her score? Kihira has never had wow factor IMO. She is the type of skater who is only memorable when they do a clean program. Miyahara could UR and pop and she'd still look good. I remember people said Kihira was going to be better than Mao both artistically and in achievements. That is not going to happen.

Kamila's detractors it seems are already busying themselves with scenarios that are getting slimmer by the day. Her rivals should be putting out maximum performances and giving a good account of themselves instead of relying on reputation and historical ability. We need to see their level now so we can put them in their pecking order. Kostornaya it seems has already found hers.

Very well said. You were firm and fair.
A lot of people drink the Kihira Kool-Aid here in RLT. While she is a very good skater and super adorable it can be hard to take here. No problem when it happens in the JLT.

As for Kamila she's on her way to greatness! She is much better than Yulia Evgenia Alina Sasha Anna and Aliona were at 14! It's undeniable. Those girls turned out great. The common denominator among them all is TT and amazing professionalism so young. KV also does more than they did at that age to by a lot.! Kamila still has to deliver on the senior level and handle nerves and pressure. I can't guarantee how she will handle the pressures that she has to live with setting the bar so high so young. But I like what I see so far with everything.

Russian nationals should be very interesting if the top guns are healthy on the ladies side. Russian Nationals will be the biggest competition of the season if there is no worlds. I somehow wish they could do a bubble in Stockholm or do world's virtually even though it would be very complicated. I still say it would be better than nothing.

 

[Lzbee]

Anna's barely perceptible quad flip step out got one 0 goe and the rest -1. Kamila's more obvious step out got two 0s, a -1 and the rest -2. Imo, if Anna gets -1 for her step out, Kamila should be getting -2 or at least a mix of -1 and -2. Yes one of the 0s gets cancelled out but so does one of the -2s and there are less judges (7 at cup Vs 9 at nationals) here so the remaining 0 will have more of an effect.

Other skaters not getting -2 for obvious stepouts is wrong as well.

I wanted to see how much difference so did the calculations for it but please correct me if I've understood the goe calculation wrong.

Base value 3A: 8.00
-2 goe across the board: -20%
-2 goe 3A: 6.4
Kamila's 3A: 6.88
9 judges 3A where the two extra give -2: 6.43

The difference is actually not as small as I thought it would be. Kamila got an extra 0.48 points due to there being more than one judge not giving -2 and the fact that there are less judges at Russian cup.

In the interest of fairness, Alena got about 2 points more than she should've in stage 4 for the SP combo which would have put her in 3rd going into the FP although not affecting the overall placements.

Essentially, judging is a mess.

 

[Vilord]

Essentially, judging is a mess.

Especially in national competitions. I just see no value in rehashing it over and over when all of us essentially agree. It doesnt matter if Its Kamilla, Aliona Sasha or Anna they are all slightly overscored but since its the same for everyone it affects nothing.
I especially disllike when anyone atacks the skaters they have nothing to do with the scores.
Anyway good luck to the top 3 today that are to skate now!

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Hi guys, does anyone who the 2 girls were, the 2 in bedazzled black masks that the camera kept showing before and after Kamila?

 

[Antoine]

Kamila 254,86 pts

 

[karina17]

Hi guys, does anyone who the 2 girls were, the 2 in bedazzled black masks that the camera kept showing before and after Kamila?

Kseniia and Daria Okladnikova. They're twins apparently, they competed in the first group and I guess they just hung around afterwards to watch Kamila.