2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Greengemmonster]

This is too late and probably irrelevant since I really like Kamila anyway but I love love love her Bolero!!!!!

She's really grown into it. That game face at RussNats, the crazy spins along with the music at the end. I've watched her RussNats performance so many times. It's a fresh program for me since I hadn't heard the music prior to it being used this season.

 

[Skatesocs]

Lucky is the person who's never heard Bolero before

 

[FayD]

Lucky is the person who's never heard Bolero before

To be fair, I don't think it was super overused in the last couple of seasons - at least compared to all the Carmens and RJs.

 

[Dawn825]

But it's certainly up for grabs between her big Liza and maybe even little Liza

Am I dumb? Who is little Liza?

I would not call the lack of flexibility a weakness. This is not gymnastics.

You can't be serious.

 

[Skatesocs]

Am I dumb? Who is little Liza?

Nugumanova.

You can't be serious.

They are. They really really really are.

 

[Scott512]

Am I dumb? Who is little Liza?

You can't be serious.

No you're not. Nugumanova.

 

[rollerblade]

To be fair, I don't think it was super overused in the last couple of seasons - at least compared to all the Carmens and RJs.

Now you jinxed it. Next season we will get some medley of Bolero + Je Suis, layered with cinematic voiceovers!

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Am I dumb? Who is little Liza?

You can't be serious.

I meant extreme flexibility like Anna, Kamila and Veronika Zhilina. No need. Sofiya Akatavieva is flexible just enough.
Now If someone is flexible like Liza and Sasha that is not good.

 

[NadezhdaNadya]

Now you jinxed it. Next season we will get some medley of Bolero + Je Suis, layered with cinematic voiceovers!

I hate the cinematic voiceovers! Alyona's R&J had that!

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Extremem flexibility is great, but honestly, it's not essential. Good spins can be done even if the skater isn't particularly flexible, like Higuchi or Yuna Kim or even Liza Osokina when she's not injured. Again, flexibility isn't even a spin GOE nor a choreo sequence GOE. Even Sasha's flexibility level is fine. Her flying camel is pretty good, her other spins, when done well, are also good. On the other hand we often have uber flexible girls who lose control of their spins and travel a lot (we all love Yulia's 2014 Team Event FS but that last spin traveled A LOT).

 

[Skatesocs]

On the other hand we often have uber flexible girls who lose control of their spins and travel a lot (we all love Yulia's 2014 Team Event FS but that last spin traveled A LOT).

It's like saying people who jump high often lose control of their jumps.

Again, flexibility isn't even a spin GOE nor a choreo sequence GOE.

How so? You hitting better positions will fetch you higher GOE - and a lot of positions require flexibility in one way or the other.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

It's like saying people who jump high often lose control of their jumps.


How so? You hitting better positions will fetch you higher GOE - and a lot of positions require flexibility in one way or the other.

Yes, it is... so what? The same should go for a roughly landed 3Lz, even if it looked as great as Tsurskaya's, in comparison to say, Kseniia Sinitsyna who has a great 3Lz, but not amazing height.

Yes, but I mean - look at Sofia A's biellmann and say, Kamila's. Obviously Kami's is way better right? But you can't say Sofia's is bad (on the contrary it's quite good)... so they both gain the same point. Kami isn't getting a bonus point for her flexibility there. Or, for example, Osokina's combo spin from test skates and say Anna's from RusNats (yes I understand those were some of her worst but still... just to compare) - Osokina doesn't hit the super flexible positions right? But she has more speed, better centering and more interesting positions. As a whole, her spin would get higher GOE even though she didn't do anything "flexible". Let's take Kaori's choreo sequence and Anna's, clearly Anna is more flexible and she gets a good spiral in, but Kaori's has better ice coverage, connection to the music, and creative positions. So, they'd get basically the same GOE. Again, Anna's flexibility here isn't gaining her a bonus point. Akatieva doesn't have the best spins from a "how impressive are they?" standpoint, but honestly when I go to give out GOE, hers might get the same as say Petrosyan's. Like, take their laybacks for example (I used Akatieva's from stage 4 SP and Adelya's from stage 3 SP) - Adelya hits a better ultimate position, but she also travels a lot during the entire spin. So +1 for speed, +1 for position, +1 for effortless, +1 for creativity, but if I were harsh I might even deduct one for traveling. For Akatieva, I'd give her +1 for speed, +1 for position, +1 for effortless, +1 for centered. At the end of the day, I'd either be +4 for both or +3 for Petrosyan (the more flexible one) and +4 for Akatieva (the less flexible one).

Of course, Sasha, Kaori and Sofia Akatieva all have flexibility. Just not to the level of say Valieva, Usacheva, Zhilina and Petrosyan. If they really had no flexibility then yes, that would be a problem. But not having candle biellmanns or insane Y-spin/I-spin positions doesn't mean their spins are automatically worse. Especially from a points standpoint.

 

[Skatesocs]

Yes, it is... so what?

So what are you suggesting? That people just shouldn't do push their flexibility for great spin positions, and also just shouldn't go for the highest jumps if they can't always control those things? I'll take the times they can do those things over something less than that.

But not having candle biellmanns or insane Y-spin/I-spin positions doesn't mean their spins are automatically worse. Especially from a points standpoint.

But they are worse from a points standpoint... "If" the rest can hit their elements, but one needs to assume they do anyway.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

So what are you suggesting? That people just shouldn't do push their flexibility for great spin positions, and also just shouldn't go for the highest jumps if they can't always control those things? I'll take the times they can do those things over something less than that.

What? That's nowhere near what I'm suggesting! I'm just saying, just because a spin has really flexible positions doesn't automatically make it better than a spin that may not have super flexibility. To delve a little off topic, I wouldn't say that forcing a skater to do the absolute maximum their flexibility allows is not always good thing. Eunsoo Lim used to do a needle spin that was very pretty, but she hurt her back a lot while doing it. Now her layback is just fine, and the biellmann looks great too. Another related (ish) tangent would be like male skaters doing biellmanns. It's really interesting and rare to see that, but do the biellmann's look that good? Not really. Do they have much speed (except for Martinez who actually has a great man biellmann)? No. So they're showing off their flexibility but I'd honestly prefer just a really fast and good looking, simpler spin.

The jump analogy is actually a bit different since good height and distance is an actual bullet and you can't really hit it without actually having good height and difference so sorry I didn't catch my faulty analogy there.

If anything my so what meant okay, you've connected the two? What argument are you planning to make with this new connection?

 

[Skatesocs]

What argument are you planning to make with this new connection?

That people should attempt the highest quality elements possible, and that includes flexible positions in spins (because yes it IS accounted for in GOE - and even if it weren't that's pointless to me, much like pre-rotation isn't accounted for in -GOE, but I don't want to see it anyway).

Anyway, probably not of use.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

That people should attempt the highest quality elements possible, and that includes flexible positions in spins (because yes it IS accounted for in GOE - and even if it weren't that's pointless to me, much like pre-rotation isn't accounted for in -GOE, but I don't want to see it anyway).

Anyway, probably not of use.

I mean, I just made two long arguments of how flexibility doesn't really matter in relation to GOE and how flexibility doesn't necessarily equal high quality but okay.

I do understand though, because I too like seeing really flexible spinners. Like I'd say Petrosyan is a fantastic spinner even if she does travel a bit. Though, oddly enough, I've always been more intrigued by really good biellmanns (like Radionova's, Sinitsyna's, Miyahara's, Dzepka's, Melkumova's etc.) rather than candle spins. Just an aesthetic thing probably.

If we are talking about spins though, I would love to see more skaters do this layback position. It's so much prettier than the sideways broken leg thing Kami and Dasha do. (Here's Dzepka's variation)

 

[Shayuki]

Extremem flexibility is great, but honestly, it's not essential. Good spins can be done even if the skater isn't particularly flexible, like Higuchi or Yuna Kim or even Liza Osokina when she's not injured. Again, flexibility isn't even a spin GOE nor a choreo sequence GOE. Even Sasha's flexibility level is fine. Her flying camel is pretty good, her other spins, when done well, are also good. On the other hand we often have uber flexible girls who lose control of their spins and travel a lot (we all love Yulia's 2014 Team Event FS but that last spin traveled A LOT).

Well Trusova's flexibility... Is pretty borderline. It's technically fine, but to me the bigger issue with Trusova's spins is her lack of rotational speed, and also that her positions are in my opinion not very aesthetically pleasing, which is where flexibility would help. Also, while it might not be directly related, I find that super flexible spinners can often spin much faster than less flexible spinners, likely due to better aerodynamics.

If we are talking about spins though, I would love to see more skaters do this layback position. It's so much prettier than the sideways broken leg thing Kami and Dasha do. (Here's Dzepka's variation)

Mm I'm not sure it's the position's fault, I think Veronika Zhilina's is much prettier than Valieva's.

 

[Vilord]

Yes, it is... so what? The same should go for a roughly landed 3Lz, even if it looked as great as Tsurskaya's, in comparison to say, Kseniia Sinitsyna who has a great 3Lz, but not amazing height.

Yes, but I mean - look at Sofia A's biellmann and say, Kamila's. Obviously Kami's is way better right? But you can't say Sofia's is bad (on the contrary it's quite good)... so they both gain the same point. Kami isn't getting a bonus point for her flexibility there. Or, for example, Osokina's combo spin from test skates and say Anna's from RusNats (yes I understand those were some of her worst but still... just to compare) - Osokina doesn't hit the super flexible positions right? But she has more speed, better centering and more interesting positions. As a whole, her spin would get higher GOE even though she didn't do anything "flexible". Let's take Kaori's choreo sequence and Anna's, clearly Anna is more flexible and she gets a good spiral in, but Kaori's has better ice coverage, connection to the music, and creative positions. So, they'd get basically the same GOE. Again, Anna's flexibility here isn't gaining her a bonus point. Akatieva doesn't have the best spins from a "how impressive are they?" standpoint, but honestly when I go to give out GOE, hers might get the same as say Petrosyan's. Like, take their laybacks for example (I used Akatieva's from stage 4 SP and Adelya's from stage 3 SP) - Adelya hits a better ultimate position, but she also travels a lot during the entire spin. So +1 for speed, +1 for position, +1 for effortless, +1 for creativity, but if I were harsh I might even deduct one for traveling. For Akatieva, I'd give her +1 for speed, +1 for position, +1 for effortless, +1 for centered. At the end of the day, I'd either be +4 for both or +3 for Petrosyan (the more flexible one) and +4 for Akatieva (the less flexible one).

Of course, Sasha, Kaori and Sofia Akatieva all have flexibility. Just not to the level of say Valieva, Usacheva, Zhilina and Petrosyan. If they really had no flexibility then yes, that would be a problem. But not having candle biellmanns or insane Y-spin/I-spin positions doesn't mean their spins are automatically worse. Especially from a points standpoint.

I would say that to get +3/+4s overall "normal" level flexibility is just fine but if a skater wants to get a +5 the judges look for that little bit extra (its normally not actually enought to just hit 5 bullets with most judges). This bit of extra can of course come in different forms for example: exellent rotational speed, unusuall or overflexible positions, creative use of positions to match music etc.

Here I think this over average flexibility of Zhillina and Valieva is really helpful in getting that wow factor in their spinns where as someone like Akatievas spinns are good but not verry special in a whole field of good spinners.

 

[Dawn825]

I meant extreme flexibility like Anna, Kamila and Veronika Zhilina. No need. Sofiya Akatavieva is flexible just enough.

If that's what you meant, ok. Akatieva is definitely flexible enough, but maybe she wouldn't get a superior position bullet the way some of the others would.

Good spins can be done even if the skater isn't particularly flexible, like Higuchi or Yuna Kim or even Liza Osokina when she's not injured. Again, flexibility isn't even a spin GOE nor a choreo sequence GOE.

Interesting you mention Wakaba, I would take off GOE points from her flying camel spin for the weak/inflexible catch-foot position. And superior position IS a GOE element for spins - for laybacks, biellmanns, catch-foot camels, and Y/I-spins, that would require extra flexibility.

Mm I'm not sure it's the position's fault, I think Veronika Zhilina's is much prettier than Valieva's

There are lots of ugly side layback positions, and Valieva's is definitely up there. Zhilina keeping her leg straight helps the aesthetic a lot.

 

[TripleAxelQueens3]

Interesting you mention Wakaba, I would take off GOE points from her flying camel spin for the weak/inflexible catch-foot position. And superior position IS a GOE element for spins - for laybacks, biellmanns, catch-foot camels, and Y/I-spins, that would require extra flexibility.

You're right about Wakaba. I mostly meant her layback (especially in her Bond program).

And biellmanns, catch-food camels, Y/I spins aren't GOE factors. They add to the level of the spin, and even then there are several other variations or bullets skater can use to get a level 4. The GOE bullet that relates most to flexibility is "good position" (and good acceleration I suppose if the aerodynamics thing is true). But again, let me use Wakaba's Bond layback spin with the arm flourishes. She doesn't even do a biellmann but she has great speed and position in the haircutter and the arm flourish matches the music extremely well. She did it when we weren't using +5/-5, but still, I feel like it would be a spin I would give +4 to, and she doesn't even do a biellmann.