2020-21 Russian Ladies' Figure Skating

[Minz]

What about 4-4 or 3-3-3 combos? Could that be an option?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Yeah, so a Nathan Chen style program.
I'd be very curious to see how jumping 4s and 3A starting from age 10 and younger will affect, if at all, these girls' joints and bone growth. I'm not one of the people who say "raise the age limit, prohibit x y z content until age x y z", actually can't stand those arguments. I simply wonder. If I had to guess now, the age of retiremnte will simply become younger and younger, in accordance with everything else becoming younger and younger.
Start ultra C at 10, be at your top technical level at 13, peak at 15, retire at 16 either due to your body giving in or not being able to compete against the next 15yo anymore.
And there will be those who wanna stop this evolution of the sport and those who accept the "natural" development of it.

Nathan Chen doesn't backload his more difficult quads (Lz, F, S, rarely Lo). I think Raf is very conscious of risk vs reward and knows exactly how much Nathan needs to do to have a base value cushion over the rest of the field. Hence 'just' a 4T-1Eu-3F and 4T-3T are enough.

Tutberidze's team is also known for being strategic (quads only really took off after backloading and arms-over-head were devalued). If multiple girls could do Nathan Chen's current programme content, then there'd be a reason to backload Lz/F to get an edge over their competitors. It would also make sense for a girl who can't manage 4-5 quads, but is very consistent on the 4F/Lz. Otherwise there isn't much point. (Sasha will go for crazy base value regardless of what other girls do, and 4Lz is one of her better jumps, so I agree that a backloaded 4Lz is likely to come from her first.)

About long-term effects, Liza is healthy and strong but I'm not sure if she counts as she didn't train quads before puberty (landed 3A at 12 y/o, perhaps attempted earlier). Sasha and Anna (maybe Aliona) are the prototypical examples so I guess we'll know the answer in a couple of years. It might depend on individual body type though, plus training method (e.g. Mishin/Plushenko, Dudakov, Davydov). I'm hopeful for Anna and Sasha since AFAIK they don't have chronic injuries.

 

[Amei]

Just to add on, I remember there being a practice session at JWC 2019 when Anna fell on her 4Lz at the start of the program, so she just went for it in the second half of her program where the 3Lz-3T usually would be. Landed it clean in combination with a 3T. It made me wonder if that was actually supposed to be the backup plan for if she fell on the 4Lz at JWC, or if she just did it impromptu, but either way it means she's got the potential for backloading quads as well. Sasha will still probably be the first, though, especially given her layout.

I doubt if Shcherbakova would backload 1 of her quads unless she were to add a quad toe or salchow. If Shcherbakova were to move 1 of her quads to be backloaded that would mean 1 of her triples being moved to be out of the bonus so she would lose points there so it might be a total wash plus backloaded quads is on more tired legs which will make her more susceptible to UR's and falls.

 

[Arbitrary]

I doubt if Shcherbakova would backload 1 of her quads unless she were to add a quad toe or salchow. If Shcherbakova were to move 1 of her quads to be backloaded that would mean 1 of her triples being moved to be out of the bonus so she would lose points there so it might be a total wash plus backloaded quads is on more tired legs which will make her more susceptible to UR's and falls.

Trusova backloaded 4T-Eu-3S and 4T-3T, once succeeded to do the same with 4Lz-3T, 4T, attempted to backload two Lutzes (She says 4Lz is her best and most solid quad till today).
Pluschenko even declared this unfortunate second lutz doomed her would be Gold to Bronze at WC-21. Who knows...

 

[flanker]

What about 4-4 or 3-3-3 combos? Could that be an option?

It's not advantageous (and 3-3-3 is not allowed) unless you would change the Zayak rule.

 

[Idiote]

It's not advantageous (and 3-3-3 is not allowed) unless you would change the Zayak rule.

Maybe 3-3-3 will be allowed at some point, after an Olympics ? That might be a good way to help skaters without quads to stay competitive, I suppose ?

 

[Arbitrary]

Why? 3Lz-3T-3Lo is allowed. Even 3Lz-3T-3T looks valid. One triple repeated.

 

[karina17]

3-3-3s are allowed, they just don't make sense in any layout right now because of the Zayak rule. Let's say you do a 3Lz+3T+3Lo, that's already a 3T and 3Lo used up. You have two additional two-jump combinations, so you'd use a -3T and -3Lo on them. Just like that you've already wasted the two quads/triples you're allowed to repeat twice on the least valuable triples.

 

[LiamForeman]

Why? 3Lz-3T-3Lo is allowed. Even 3Lz-3T-3T looks valid. One triple repeated.

The problem with a three triple combination is that it would prevent maximum BV for the jumps. Essentially, to maximize TSS you should use loop, toe and sal for the combinations and repeat or use either Quad/3axel/3lutz/3flip to start the combo. Doing X-3toe-3toe means that you can't repeat a second higher level triple/quad because the 3toe is used twice. It doesn't make sense mathematically. Plus if you can do a --3loop, it's already risky for DG/UR, so best to just do it in a 2 jump combo, since just having the --3loop is a BV fattener. (see Scherbakova's BV with --loop compared to others who have to just put a --2toe in one of their combos).

 

[brakes]

Both Aliona and Sasha have weaknesses. Anna is kinda a combination of both of their strengths but does neither as well as they do and she has her own weaknesses.

I'd say Anna's achievements prove she's doing exceptionally well combining these strengths.

 

[Arbitrary]

The problem with a three triple combination is that it would prevent maximum BV for the jumps. Essentially, to maximize TSS you should use loop, toe and sal for the combinations and repeat or use either Quad/3axel/3lutz/3flip to start the combo. Doing X-3toe-3toe means that you can't repeat a second higher level triple/quad because the 3toe is used twice. It doesn't make sense mathematically. Plus if you can do a --3loop, it's already risky for DG/UR, so best to just do it in a 2 jump combo, since just having the --3loop is a BV fattener. (see Scherbakova's BV with --loop compared to others who have to just put a --2toe in one of their combos).

To maximize TES one triple (say 3Lo) may be used again. A skater may adopt +3F combo. It's not easy but easier than quad. So a quadless one may continue to push. The quadless world isn't finished yet.

 

[Shayuki]

Both Aliona and Sasha have weaknesses. Anna is kinda a combination of both of their strengths but does neither as well as they do and she has her own weaknesses.

Poor way to put it. Anna also has her unique strengths.

 

[eterialskating]

Sotnikova saying Kaori scores were home inflated over Elizaveta at WTT. Well she's one to speak. https://twitter.com/hhjhjkvkc/status/1384564752555331585

LOL So many bitter losers still can't still get over her win and had to bring this up. Her Olympic performance today would score better than Sakamoto got yesterday. The lady she beat in Sochi will still get the score deserving for a 6 triple program with amateur spins and a lousy step sequence.

 

[Minz]

Ok, what about 4-4 combos. I know about 4-3 combos and even 3A-4 combos. What about 4-4‘s?

 

[Arbitrary]

Ok, what about 4-4 combos. I know about 4-3 combos and even 3A-4 combos. What about 4-4‘s?

Not here yet.
My guess the 4T-4T or 4S-4T or 4x-1Eu-4S combo will be a rare guest the post-Olympics season.
At least Samoilov demoed 4S-1Eu-4S in practice.

 

[chasingneverland]

I'd say Anna's achievements prove she's doing exceptionally well combining these strengths.

I didn't say she wasn't. However, Anna's true strength is her ability to compete.

 

[chasingneverland]

Poor way to put it. Anna also has her unique strengths.

I didn't say she didn't.

However, overall figure skating - as it's currently perceived - is binary, with technicality and artistry standing at opposing ends.

 

[Scott512]

The Russian national team I would choose is Liza Sasha Anna KV Aliona and Dasha.

My alternates are Zhenya and Maya. Zhenya still wants to compete. If they don't put Medvedeva on the team then Ksenia gets to be the alternate.

Also for Ksenia its time to push someone besides a Mishin or EG skater. If not KS then Little Liza gets a push and is a possible alternate. But being an alternate isn't all it's cracked up to be. Remember when Nastya got her national team alternate position 2 years ago? Yeah me neither.

 

[silveruskate]

How are Maiia and Zhenya affected by not being in the National team? They have to finance international competitions themselves?

And how does it compare to what Jrs get from RusFed?

 

[Minz]

The Russian national team is Liza Sasha Anna KV Aliona and Dasha.

The alternates are Zhenya and Maya. Zhenya still wants to compete.. If they don't put Medvedeva on the team then Ksenia gets to be the alternate.

Also for Ksenia its time to push someone besides a Mishin or EG skater. If not KS then Little Liza gets a push and is a possible alternate. But being an alternate isn't all it's cracked up to be. Remember when Nastya got her national team alternate position 2 years ago? Yeah me neither.

Where did you find this out?