2021-2022 US Women's Figure Skating

[Lutzedge]

I would say that the scores correctly refected what was put on the ice. Technical calling was strict for everyone.

Clare has a major UR problem, her 3Lz+3T UR is visible in real time. I like Clare's skating ( more than I like her training mates Karen and Audrey's skating) but all the female skaters coached by her coach have UR issues. She should find another coach who will actually address the UR problem before she turns senior. Karen and Audrey have never made true progress in this area.

Mia's skating is not to my taste. It isn't to the judges' tastes either because they never give her the benefit of doubt. ( Rather the opposite of Ava Marie who can also be messy but whose basic skating is incredibly good) That being said, Mia did improve from her last competition noticeably her jumps and performance in the SP were a lot better. It is good to see such improvement in such a short time. Mia needs to take the time between now and junior nationals to work on her basic skating and her jumps. Mia is cute. I love her smile. Now she and her coach work on her weaknesses.. She is only 13 she has time to improve.

The calls were strict. I would definitely say that. They just seemed a little harsh on Mia's negative GOEs. But she definitely has time, and seems to really push herself. There was improvement, and there still can be more improvement. But that is fine, and like you mentioned, she is only 13. As for Clare, I have thought of that with the coach and the rotation problems, and I agree. A lot of skaters coached by Tammy Gambil are excellent and delightful skaters with great potential, but they seem to have problems with rotation. I noticed first in the SP in regular time her UR triple toe. I wondered how it got positive GOE right away. Karen is already 22, and still has rotation problems. Those are big things to work on.

 

[mrrice]

Perhaps Karen?

I definitely have Karen in the top group. I was answering the question..."Is there a skater who could come from out of nowhere and win like Bradie did in 2018, I thought Lindsay was the only skater who could upset the top ladies. I still have Alysa winning but, the rest of ladies could be "Upset" if Lindsay has a National Night like Bradie did in 2018.

 

[Skater Boy]

I agree. I wanted Amber to get chosen over Karen because, like you said, Karen's record in the year leading up to 2021 Nationals didn't suggest that she'd be a medal contender at Worlds. Ultimately sending Karen was the right choice, so I think having a more formal selection process that takes into account other international events will be beneficial going forward. My one concern is that athletes might not push themselves to try difficult jumps in international events because the selection criteria seem to encourage consistency. If I were Amber's coach, I might not have her try the 3A next weekend and instead go for an easier layout but executed cleanly (something she has struggled with anyway).

I t

 

[Skater Boy]

Amber certainly has a chance to go to the olympics but even with a 3A she isn't guaranteed as other parts of her skating aren't as refined. With Bradie's injuries it looks like the only sure Olympian would be Liu. Karen, Amber, Mariah, Bradie would probably be fighting for the two other spots. Liu really looks good. Her skating has matured and she is a better skater not to mention the jumps. I am curious what is going on with Gracie Gold? Does she have a spot guaranteed at nationals? How is her training going? If she skated clean with her past layout she could qualify. The issue though is she or can she skate clean.

 

[Apple1078]

I wish Massimo and Jeremy could work with Mia on skating skills etc. Alysa and Mia are in the same rink in Oakland (when Alysa isn't training with Lorenzo Magri in Italy).

 

[Bluediamonds09]

Sierra Venetta may not have the jumps but she's wonderful to watch, her skating is lovely. Why so few fans? No one posts videos of her so I haven't seen any of her competitions this year.

 

[yelyoh]

I wish Massimo and Jeremy could work with Mia on skating skills etc. Alysa and Mia are in the same rink in Oakland (when Alysa isn't training with Lorenzo Magri in Italy).

ITA. Mia will get more consistent with the quad and her jumps in general. She has already corrected to some extent that lean forward on her landings. And she feels the music as is especially evident in her SP. Jeremy and Massimo could bring her to another level. In general, I think the women's field is a tossup, except maybe for Alysa. The men's not so much for the top three. Four - ten absolutely. This should be a really exciting season!!!

 

[bubblecherry]

Unfortunately, her miserable GP performances were indicative of what we would witness from Karen at the Olympics. She'd complain about her boot manufacturer, she'd complain that she couldn't stay with her mother in the Athlete's Village, she'd complain about whatever she could blame for her poor performances, except she wouldn't take any responsibility for herself. Four years later, lots of excuses later, not much to show the USFS her worth for all the faith they had in her, and Karen is back again, doing mediocre. I just hope that USFS is consistent enough this year that if Karen is on the chopping block, well, chop. Give another hardworking athlete an Olympic spot. Spread the love to the other American parents of skaters who have sacrificed so much for their child's skating. I don't want to see Karen at the Olympics if it means an Amber, Mariah, Lindsay would forever miss out on being an Olympian. For what? Another middling performance from Karen with lots of excuses? I'll pass.

Except a 4th place Worlds finish, which is the highest of any US lady since Karen herself 4 years prior.

It’s honestly pretty disappointing to see you trying to frame Karen‘s career in this way. Many skaters talk about their issues with their boots (why are Bradie’s boot issues at Worlds that led to her disappointing performance valid, but Karen’s boot struggles aren’t?), many skaters talk about their issues with injuries. Many skaters discuss how competing can be difficult psychologically, whether it’s nerves, or issues with parents or coaches, etc.

Not only that, but the exaggeration about the underroation issue seems very intentional. If Karen’s having a good day, she’ll rotate most of the jumps and get most of them called clean. She’ll get huge points on spins, steps, and PCS. If she’s having a “meh” day, she’ll UR a few jumps and get them called. If she’s having a bad day, she’ll fall and get multiple URs. This is basically the case for every US lady other than Alysa at this point. Bradie, Mariah, and Amber haven’t consistently delivered in terms of clean performances and rotating their triples in years.

And lastly, Olympic spots are not given out as a charity. If Karen makes the Olympic team because of her body of work, and her excellent quality on a myriad of elements, that’s the only excellent for US figure skating. Mariah, Amber, Lindsay, etc. aren’t owed a spot out of pity and that’s a sad way to look at it. They all have opportunities to out perform eachother and may the best women win.

 

[pete]

Sierra Venetta may not have the jumps but she's wonderful to watch, her skating is lovely. Why so few fans? No one posts videos of her so I haven't seen any of her competitions this year.

Have you seen this? Her SP filmed by on ice perspectives

 

[Skatesocs]

Not only that, but the exaggeration about the underroation issue seems very intentional.

It does lol. I think it's reputation based, more than anything. She does tend to underrotate early in the season- this is usually fixed by the end of the season, as she slowly tends to peak and regain her form.

Which is why I linked this thread... https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/chen-vs-wagner-judging.68454/ From the previous decider. I wanted to read what this forum thought about the US ladies nationals back then, as the discussion over Karen's jump rotation currently intrigued me. A lot of the people in that thread could see her calls were bogus. One is even a Russian stan who still posts, and someone I'd hardly consider biased in favor of Karen.

This is still the case. She has issues early in the season, those vanish (mostly) by the end of the season, but the reputation remains. This will probably happen again. Not opening those threads

 

[Lzbee]

It does lol. I think it's reputation based, more than anything. She does tend to underrotate early in the season- this is usually fixed by the end of the season, as she slowly tends to peak and regain her form.

Which is why I linked this thread... https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/chen-vs-wagner-judging.68454/ From the previous decider. I wanted to read what this forum thought about the US ladies nationals back then, as the discussion over Karen's jump rotation currently intrigued me. A lot of the people in that thread could see her calls were bogus. One is even a Russian stan who still posts, and someone I'd hardly consider biased in favor of Karen.

This is still the case. She has issues early in the season, those vanish (mostly) by the end of the season, but the reputation remains. This will probably happen again. Not opening those threads

Interesting thread, thanks for the read.

One thing that frustrates me about Karen's jumps is that she always lands them with a hook but just because it has a hook, doesn't necessarily mean it's underrotated. Fans often forget to look at the angle she goes into those jumps when rescoring her imo.

I actually Karen's skating skills are a tad overrated among fans, her crossovers are actually not all that pretty. But I think her tech deserves more credit.

 

[mrrice]

Have you seen this? Her SP filmed by on ice perspectives

That Falling Leaf was GORGEOUS!!!!

 

[Skatesocs]

One thing that frustrates me about Karen's jumps is that she always lands them with a hook but just because it has a hook, doesn't necessarily mean it's underrotated. Fans often forget to look at the angle she goes into those jumps when rescoring her imo.

Yeah, I said this in the worlds 2021 LP thread... I think fans ignore the take off angle (and pre-rotation, but even ignoring that sometimes...), and also overestimate the hook on the landing. Most jump landings are slightly "UR" - they need to be to grip the ice and flow out, or else the person might fall. You very rarely see "perfectly backward" (Yuna's best jumps) and "overrotated" landings stay up (I can really only think of Ito who went past backward on some jumps and managed to stay up... and we shouldn't expect people to be Ito or Yuna, lol).

Now, I'm not saying Karen's UR issues entirely vanish, or even that every single hook she does is exaggerated by the fans (she is but a skater who can make mistakes), or even that her technique is perfect, but there are cases (like, again, the 2021 Worlds SP) where I think "that was fine", and see fans disagreeing, and it makes me now think they're going off reputation. The jumps need to be looked at individually every competition.

I actually Karen's skating skills are a tad overrated among fans, her crossovers are actually not all that pretty. But I think her tech deserves more credit.

I think she has improved this quad, but not as much as I would have liked. Apart from crossovers, I've wanted her to work more on her depth of edge and fluidity, and also to work on how to more effortlessly transfer between turns and steps (she sometimes looks awkward during her step sequence as she's trying to do those level 4s). But the thing is, even at her level, she was in the previous quad, and still is, the best in terms of skating skills, when it comes to the top American ladies. Great speed and glide, and still tends to display nice rhythm in the steps, and of course her spirals create a very difficult balance point through which she keeps her speed. When her jumps are on, she knows how to use her knees to flow out of them well, too. Maybe Alysa will catch up and exceed her now, though.

 

[Amei]

Yeah, I said this in the worlds 2021 LP thread... I think fans ignore the take off angle (and pre-rotation, but even ignoring that sometimes...), and also overestimate the hook on the landing. Most jump landings are slightly "UR" - they need to be to grip the ice and flow out, or else the person might fall. You very rarely see "perfectly backward" (Yuna's best jumps) and "overrotated" landings stay up (I can really only think of Ito who went past backward on some jumps and managed to stay up... and we shouldn't expect people to be Ito or Yuna, lol).

Now, I'm not saying Karen's UR issues entirely vanish, or even that every single hook she does is exaggerated by the fans (she is but a skater who can make mistakes), or even that her technique is perfect, but there are cases (like, again, the 2021 Worlds SP) where I think "that was fine", and see fans disagreeing, and it makes me now think they're going off reputation. The jumps need to be looked at individually every competition.

Well the issue is not so much fans paying attention to reputation but that judges go off reputation, if a skater has a reputation (like Karen Chen) then judges tend to look closely at those skaters jumps whereas someone who doesn't have a reputation might be able to avoid a call here and there because the UR wasn't really obvious.

 

[Amei]

And lastly, Olympic spots are not given out as a charity. If Karen makes the Olympic team because of her body of work, and her excellent quality on a myriad of elements, that’s the only excellent for US figure skating. Mariah, Amber, Lindsay, etc. aren’t owed a spot out of pity and that’s a sad way to look at it. They all have opportunities to out perform eachother and may the best women win.

I hate the body of work argument, in the last 4 seasons the only international 'championship' medal the US ladies has is what - 1 bronze at 4ccs and then there are a few GP medals that are sprinkled in there between a few skaters (I don't think there are any gold GP medals), the next 'bright spot' is that Karen finished in fourth at Worlds where pretty much every heavy-hitter under-performed and multiple of them did exceptionally bad. No lady for the US has some impressive body of work that warrants overlooking being out-performed by someone at Nationals, the US should IMO be telling the ladies, Nationals is put up or shut up time, the top 3 age-eligible finishers are going to the Olympics. But they won't do that, because they don't want to cede the control if someone they favor under-performs at Nationals.

 

[Skatesocs]

Well the issue is not so much fans paying attention to reputation but that judges go off reputation, if a skater has a reputation (like Karen Chen) then judges tend to look closely at those skaters jumps whereas someone who doesn't have a reputation might be able to avoid a call here and there because the UR wasn't really obvious.

We all know the judges go off reputation, lol. The reason I'm posting that is because I think the fans do, too, and are as a result writing about her UR issues based off what happens before in the season + what the judges are calling off reputation during the current competition.

Basically, I'm saying we should all cool down about Karen's URs. The judges don't grant her the benefit of the doubt that others might get. I'm saying that it isn't "unfair" for her to go, because the thread tends to exaggerate her issues. Now, if someone were to make the argument that her scores are hindered due to phantom URs, and therefore she shouldn't go because she is at the mercy of the caller, then it's an actual argument, instead of saying "she URs all the time". A cruel argument, but one that has more basis in reality.

 

[Lzbee]

I hate the body of work argument, in the last 4 seasons the only international 'championship' medal the US ladies has is what - 1 bronze at 4ccs and then there are a few GP medals that are sprinkled in there between a few skaters (I don't think there are any gold GP medals), the next 'bright spot' is that Karen finished in fourth at Worlds where pretty much every heavy-hitter under-performed and multiple of them did exceptionally bad. No lady for the US has some impressive body of work that warrants overlooking being out-performed by someone at Nationals, the US should IMO be telling the ladies, Nationals is put up or shut up time, the top 3 age-eligible finishers are going to the Olympics. But they won't do that, because they don't want to cede the control if someone they favor under-performs at Nationals.

Like you said yourself, Karen only got 4th at World's because all the heavy hitters faltered. I feel that if that doesn't count then you should also not count someone who might get bronze (or even silver) at nationals because some of the heavy hitters falter for that competition.

The current criteria are actually pretty good in that if someone has managed to do a Bradie and have a breakout season, then they will be considered.

 

[Hyena]

We all know the judges go off reputation, lol. The reason I'm posting that is because I think the fans do, too, and are as a result writing about her UR issues based off what happens before in the season + what the judges are calling off reputation during the current competition.

I think this is a really good point, and one we should think about more. I've seen this happen with Karen, Vincent, and others - fans get mad when they skate clean and don't get multiple URs even though they might not have underrotated that day. It happens to all of us, I've gotten frustrated by lower GOE for my favorites (or higher GOE for my not-as-favorites) or questioned calls on levels when the scores may be reasonable. Not that judging is always reasonable - it's not - but it helps to call ourselves out as fans a little.

 

[halulupu]

I hate the body of work argument, in the last 4 seasons the only international 'championship' medal the US ladies has is what - 1 bronze at 4ccs and then there are a few GP medals that are sprinkled in there between a few skaters (I don't think there are any gold GP medals), the next 'bright spot' is that Karen finished in fourth at Worlds where pretty much every heavy-hitter under-performed and multiple of them did exceptionally bad. No lady for the US has some impressive body of work that warrants overlooking being out-performed by someone at Nationals, the US should IMO be telling the ladies, Nationals is put up or shut up time, the top 3 age-eligible finishers are going to the Olympics. But they won't do that, because they don't want to cede the control if someone they favor under-performs at Nationals.

Agree! Its not like any of the us ladies is an world championship and had an injury in summer and therefore isn't in top form yet

 

[Amei]

Like you said yourself, Karen only got 4th at World's because all the heavy hitters faltered. I feel that if that doesn't count then you should also not count someone who might get bronze (or even silver) at nationals because some of the heavy hitters falter for that competition.

The current criteria are actually pretty good in that if someone has managed to do a Bradie and have a breakout season, then they will be considered.

I didn't say that Karen's fourth place didn't count, the point was that the placement was 'bright spot' for the US ladies and it was largely because heavy hitters under-performed; Karen performed probably the absolute best she could. The point of my post is that there's no one with some body of work at this point competing for the Olympic team that justifies saying to ignore results from Nationals. So who do you think is a heavy hitter for the US ladies who can be out-performed at Nationals and it be justified to pick them over a skater that out-performed them?