2021-2022 US Women's Figure Skating

[*~RussianBleux~*]

You can say "Alysa could have beaten Georgia and Canada easily" all you want but at her last competition Karen beat her in the SP. So you don't actually know that, just like no one knew Karen was going to fall tonight. All this Monday morning quarterbacking is pointless and not based in reality.

The US is winning silver regardless.

You mean nationals where Alysa had Covid? That’s not a fair comparison.

If Alysa had skated a clean short without 3A and a backloaded 3Lz+3T I’m like 95% sure she would have beaten Canada/Georgia. Gubanova’s programs are empty and I think they would have given her the performance edge over Maddie. Alysa also has very nice spins.

 

[saturdaysun]

You mean nationals where Alysa had Covid? That’s not a fair comparison.

If Alysa had skated a clean short without 3A and a backloaded 3Lz+3T I’m like 95% sure she would have beaten Canada/Georgia. Gubanova’s programs are empty and I think they would have given her the performance edge over Maddie. Alysa also has very nice spins.

Keyword is "if." If Karen skated clean she would have beaten Canada and Georgia too.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

I'm not happy about Alysa being left out of the TE. I thought it was hers, honestly. But I also don't know why people think making athletes go all the way to Beijing not being certain of whether they would have to skate in the TE is a good idea. So all their practices are basically mini-competitions and they can't actually focus on preparing for the event, and none of them know what their schedule is ahead of time. That is so much extra unnecessary stress when they're already jetlagged and trying to prepare for what they have to do.

I'm not sure if that's how they used to decided Team Event selections, but it seems wrong, and I think people are still trying to go back in time and change things based on tonight's outcome, which is pointless. If Karen didn't fall there would be no "poorly thought out decision" conversation.

I think it’s ridiculous to go to the Olympics with an understanding that a team event will be drawn from your spot and not expect that you may have to be an alternate with illnesses/injuries to other skaters as a possible factor, especially with Covid (it isn’t like we had the option to send separate team or additional athletes that would be considered).

If an athlete didn’t feel prepared for the possibility of a team event they should have told the federation that in advance and let the fed decide whether to still send them.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Keyword is "if." If Karen skated clean she would have beaten Canada and Georgia too.

Alysa is much much more consistent than Karen on the basic triples. Therefore there is a better chance she would have skated it clean if she didn’t try 3A.

If Nathan had bombed his portion no one would be trying to make an argument that the USFSA should have foreseen that and nominated someone else. That’s the difference here.

 

[saturdaysun]

I think it’s ridiculous to go to the Olympics with an understanding that a team event will be drawn from your spot and not expect that you may have to be an alternate with illnesses/injuries to other skaters as a possible factor, especially with Covid (it isn’t like we had the option to send separate team or additional athletes that would be considered).

If an athlete didn’t feel prepared for the possibility of a team event they should have told the federation that in advance and let the fed decide whether to still send them.

Staying ready because you *might* have to step up to be an alternate is not the same as all athletes competing for one spot in the days and hours leading up to the event. That turns practices into competitions and competitions are an extra layer of stress they don't need when doing the TE means you're already going to be competing four times.

 

[saturdaysun]

Alysa is much much more consistent than Karen on the basic triples. Therefore there is a better chance she would have skated it clean if she didn’t try 3A.

If Nathan had bombed his portion no one would be trying to make an argument that the USFSA should have foreseen that and nominated someone else. That’s the difference here.

If it were up to me I would have given the TE to Alysa. But there were downsides to choosing her just like there were downsides to choosing any of the women and we don't know that she would have done better than Karen today. Alysa gets her own share of UR calls, after all. Karen is quite capable of doing clean SPs and has very high PCS internationally. One bad outing is not proof that the fed made a mistake.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Staying ready because you *might* have to step up to be an alternate is not the same as all athletes competing for one spot in the days and hours leading up to the event. That turns practices into competitions and competitions are an extra layer of stress they don't need when doing the TE means you're already going to be competing four times.

I disagree. I think the responsibility of the federation is to put together the best possible team at the time of the event from the available competitors who realize their selection is part of a team. That includes monitoring the athletes in official practices and making the decision at the event.

There was no reason why Karen needed one month’s notice that she was skating a team event when they didn’t even give her competition a chance to be evaluated Covid free. That’s insane.

 

[saturdaysun]

I disagree. I think the responsibility of the federation is to put together the best possible team at the time of the event from the available competitors who realize their selection is part of a team. That includes monitoring the athletes in official practices and making the decision at the event.

There was no reason why Karen needed one month’s notice that she was skating a team event when they didn’t even give her competition a chance to be evaluated Covid free. That’s insane.

Agree to disagree, but again, this conversation wouldn't be happening if Karen didn't happen to have a bad outing tonight. This thread would have been all "this is why the fed chose her," as I suspect is what the Japanese fans are saying, though many were skeptical of the selection of Wakaba over Kaori for the SP. It's a coin flip, ice is slippery and no one can tell the future.

 

[Lzbee]

Guys. Alysa had COVID. She only got on the plane to China 2 days ago. That means zero practice on Olympic ice before competing. That would've been so unfair to her. She would've been my first choice too but covid really threw a spanner in the works and that's no one's fault.

Mariah might have done better than Karen here but she also had COVID and she'd have to do 4 programs which is a lot for someone who's recently lost ice time.

On the plus side, Karen landed her 3-3 but both she and Vincent need more speed going into their jumps to get them around, you can see before they jump when they're going to underrotate/fall. You can also see that Karen is so much faster in practices than competition. Anyway, wishing Karen a good redemption skate for the FP.

 

[Jammers]

If Alysa or even Mariah were healthy and hadn't lost a lot of time practicing after they got COVID then the USFS are idiots and whatever happened to the criteria to pick the team anyway? Alysa was the only skater to be in tier 2 and never got the chance to skate in the LP where she could easily have moved up.

 

[readernick]

If Alysa or even Mariah were healthy and hadn't lost a lot of time practicing after they got COVID then the USFS are idiots and whatever happened to the criteria to pick the team anyway? Alysa was the only skater to be in tier 2 and never got the chance to skate in the LP where she could easily have moved up.

I don't think Alysa would have beaten Wakaba (Wakaba is a different level of quality) but she wouldn't have been beaten by Madeline or Gubanova. COVID in this case is just an excuse because K/F were chosen despite the fact that his case of COVID-19 was far worse than Alysa's.

 

[bytheriver]

I’m guessing that the choice after Nationals was made taking into consideration Alysa’s COVID diagnosis (and need to test negative through a PCR early enough to fly out to Beijing for the team event) and Karen’s placement at the pre-Olympic worlds which was the only indicator that they had stacking the two ladies up against the rest of the world contenders. Mariah had a good GP, but Karen tended to peak later in the year where Mariah tended to peak in the beginning.

Maybe there is something to the USFS dumping Alysa after she lost her ultra-C elements. I wouldn’t be shocked if they were looking for a reason to exclude her given her drastic mid-season coaching change and recent uncertain social media behavior. The USFS seems fairly traditional and conservative in that way, making Mariah or Karen a safer choice. That plus them weighing Karen and Mariah’s performance at past Worlds could certainly lead them to this decision.

 

[skatesofgold]

Guys. Alysa had COVID. She only got on the plane to China 2 days ago. That means zero practice on Olympic ice before competing. That would've been so unfair to her. She would've been my first choice too but covid really threw a spanner in the works and that's no one's fault.

Mariah might have done better than Karen here but she also had COVID and she'd have to do 4 programs which is a lot for someone who's recently lost ice time.

On the plus side, Karen landed her 3-3 but both she and Vincent need more speed going into their jumps to get them around, you can see before they jump when they're going to underrotate/fall. You can also see that Karen is so much faster in practices than competition. Anyway, wishing Karen a good redemption skate for the FP.

Here's the thing. Brandon had COVID, too, and he's still competing in the team event. They could have used Ashley and Tim, if that was a factor in their decision.

 

[emmaleemochizuki]

why wasn't mariah chosen above karen for the ladies free skate?

 

[dancelion21]

why wasn't mariah chosen above karen for the ladies free skate?

That's what everyone in this thread has been speculating about

Here are a few reasons that people have come up with

• Mariah and Alysa both had COVID at/right after Nationals. Since Karen knew she was doing the team event right after Nationals, USFS may have considered Karen the safest bet since she was the only one that didn't get COVID
  • This is slightly contradicted by the fact that Brandon also had COVID at Nationals, but Knierim/Frazier are competing in the team event
• Karen has a history of peaking at the right moments (2017 and 2021 Worlds), so USFS felt that she would be able to rise up to the occasion of a team event. Mariah and Karen are both very inconsistent, so this may have put the situation in Karen's favor.
  • Alysa was the most consistent competitor across the fall season, but it is understandable why USFS did not feel they could trust her due to her recent coaching change
• Karen is a two-time Olympian and might be able to deal with the Olympic pressure better since she's done it before
  • Some direct evidence for it, since this is what Chock/Bates cited in their team event press conference while representing team USA. They're obviously told some talking points before going into the press conference, so this could be coming from USFS themselves.
• Karen gets scored generously in PCS and GOE from the international judges and she beat Mariah at their head to head at IdF
• Karen can land a triple-triple more consistently than Mariah
  • According to Jackie Wong's practice notes at the Olympics, Karen was landing 4-5 triple triples per practice session while Mariah was usually only doing 1
  • But this is a little overridden by the fact that Mariah underrotates her standard triples much less than Karen does
  • Alysa has the most consistent jumps of all three of them, she underrotates her triple-triples too, but she never pops or underrotates her standard triples
• Karen's coach is being rewarded for the internal USFS politics game. In the team event, Raf has Nathan, Tom Z has Vincent, and now Tammy gets her skater, Karen
• Karen's programs are more palatable for a Chinese audience
  • Turns out to be a moot point since there is no Chinese audience in the arena

 

[Remilia]

Guys. Alysa had COVID. She only got on the plane to China 2 days ago. That means zero practice on Olympic ice before competing. That would've been so unfair to her. She would've been my first choice too but covid really threw a spanner in the works and that's no one's fault.

This covid argument is kind of moot considering brandon also had covid and yet and K/F are competing in the team event. Also, there was an interview done with one of her coaches in January where he said they would be leavin for Beijing on the 4th. So If it was a problem with testing negative, I highly doubt he would have given a specific date like that. More likely she and her team knew she hadn't been picked for the TE, and thus didn't bother leaving for Beijing earlier than necessary.

 

[moonvine]

Whichever woman is chosen, I hope the USFSA explains its decision since both Mariah and Karen stated this week that they hope to get picked. We've known in the past that the top athlete in each event was asked if they wanted to do one or both programs. Who is the top athlete for the women? Did any of them decline the chance to participate? Lots of questions.

That’s so weird. This article says Karen was told she’d skate the team event a month ago. https://www.si.com/olympics/2022/02/06/beijing-us-figure-skating-team-event-chen-zhou

 

[MrMC18]

Can everyone just please stop with the speculation and the hypothetical scenarios that may have occurred if Alysa or Mariah had been chosen. Karen was chosen and there's literally nothing any of us here can do about it. I left another site and came to this forum to discuss and appreciate the beauty of skating but I don't like this new negativity after Karen's skate last night.

I love all 3 US women. We have such treasures. These fan-wars are just so terrible and tear people apart. There's no use in fighting over skaters' credentials and what-not.

I wish all the luck in the world to Karen tonight. Her Butterfly Lovers program is such a dear program to me. She finally is debuting it in China, and whether or not there's a big audience, that in itself is something incredible.

 

[readernick]

Can everyone just please stop with the speculation and the hypothetical scenarios that may have occurred if Alysa or Mariah had been chosen. Karen was chosen and there's literally nothing any of us here can do about it. I left another site and came to this forum to discuss and appreciate the beauty of skating but I don't like this new negativity after Karen's skate last night.

I love all 3 US women. We have such treasures. These fan-wars are just so terrible and tear people apart. There's no use in fighting over skaters' credentials and what-not.

I wish all the luck in the world to Karen tonight. Her Butterfly Lovers program is such a dear program to me. She finally is debuting it in China, and whether or not there's a big audience, that in itself is something incredible.

We aren't bashing Karen. No one has said anything bad about Karen. As it happens, I personally don't favor Mariah, Karen, or Alysa. They are all equal in my opinion as skaters. They aren't, however, equal in scoring potential and that is what we are discussing. We are bashing the USFS. There is a clear difference. One is a skater who just did the best she could in a given situation. The other went against its own criteria and made a stupid, biased decision which led to a rather terrible result. Please don't equate two very different things.

 

[yelyoh]

Moonvine Karen was the one who got the three spots for US women so maybe this was a reward of sorts. We'll see how Worlds goes. I think Karen said she was working or intending to work on a triple axel. No that is NOT a good idea!!! Next season or two the upcoming young US women are going to be settling into the senior level. They may just past the current crop of US women by. Even some of the junior/novice women at US Nats had the jumps, spins and je ne sait quoi qualities.