2022–23 Canadian Figure Skating

[GoneWithTheWind]

I don't think the Italians deserved to be on the podium in silver position over Piper/Paul. Ice dance and pairs teams who won Euros (both from Italy) clearly got a political boost at Worlds. Meanwhile, Piper/ Paul lost momentum due to Piper's surgery and recovery preventing them from competing at 4CCs.

I don't think it was a "political boost" that won the Italians the silver, it was their technical score. As discussed in the Worlds FD thread, G/F beat G/P by almost exactly 2 points. G/F's tech base value across the competition was 3 points higher (they had a 1.88 higher BV in the RD alone) while G/P got higher GOE in both programs and higher PCS in FD. To me, that says the judges were willing to go with G/P, but the Italians higher levels were uncatchable.

 

[rain]

Moreover, clearly certain guys were protected in the sp, including Nick Starostin of Germany, Sota Yamamoto of Japan, and Morisi K of Georgia by way of Russia.

I would add Matteo Rizzo and Boyang Jin.

Conrad paid a very high price for skating in the first group. Let's imagine for a second he would have just landed a triple toe... because he has done at times, a one quad program... add 5 points.. and he still barely qualifies... this just shows how little reward he got from judges in terms of GOE and PCS. He has a good coach, able to steer him in the right psychological direction. The goal this year was to improve his overall skating. Mission accomplished. Making the team for worlds, WOW ! I didn't expect that to happen at the beginning of the season. So overall, a great season for Conrad with the hope that he does learn from it....

But yeah... Skate Canada missed the opportunity to stand behind him... they should have sent him to WTT... but no... sigh...

When I saw that Conrad hadn't made the LP I thought he must have had a disaster, not one pop, landing both the triple axel and quad toe in combo.

Part of the whole point of IJS was so that skating order wasn't supposed to matter so much anymore, but I think we all know it still matters a great deal.

I won't relitigate the whole ice dance debacle here, just reiterate that I still believe wholeheartedly that Piper and Paul got screwed (with the whole appendectomy used as a convenient excuse), Chock/Bates were ridiculously overscored in a way the skating did not reflect and that FB/S and P/P were the sacrificial lambs in one of the most blatant international judging deals I've ever seen — and I watched the foot tapping cheaters live on TV.

 

[4everchan]

it was the quad sal but same difference
Our skaters got disadvantaged with the start order and also with the panels...

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I'm sorry, but I think you are really trivializing pops.

Conrad literally lost 9.5 points in BV alone for that one mistake. He also didn't do a 4+3 combo (unlike at 4CC), which lost him another 2.9 points, so he lost 12.4 points in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with judges or technical panels.

If you add just that loss in BV to his score, he would have scored 80.05, just 0.04 off his score at 4CC, and that is with lower levels on one of his spins and on the Step sequence. And without taking into account potentially positive GOE on the 4T, and higher PCS (as I have been told that a pop is a significant mistake that has to lower PCS, even if I don't necessarily agree).

While BV is by far not everything, Conrad had the 4th lowest BV in the SP at Worlds, and apart from Boyang (whose BV was just a bit over one point higher), all of the other skaters who qualified for the Free had BVs 3.8+ points in excess of Conrad's BV (Reminder that Conrad missed out on the Free by just about 2.64 points - Literally less than switching a 3T for a 2T costs a skater in BV). His GOE, on the other hand, were the 13th highest (with one less element than most other skaters) - This does not speak of a panel that didn't want him to make the Free.

 

[almiranara]

even though he has a lot of improvements this season, i still think Conrad got a lot of things to work on, especially his spins and step sequence levels

 

[4everchan]

even though he has a lot of improvements this season, i still think Conrad got a lot of things to work on, especially his spins and step sequence levels

There is no denying he needs to improve many areas of his skating. At the same time, there is a noticeable improvement in his performance quality that is not being rewarded, at least yet.

 

[4everchan]

I'm sorry, but I think you are really trivializing pops.

Conrad literally lost 9.5 points in BV alone for that one mistake. He also didn't do a 4+3 combo (unlike at 4CC), which lost him another 2.9 points, so he lost 12.4 points in ways that have absolutely nothing to do with judges or technical panels.

If you add just that loss in BV to his score, he would have scored 80.05, just 0.04 off his score at 4CC, and that is with lower levels on one of his spins and on the Step sequence. And without taking into account potentially positive GOE on the 4T, and higher PCS (as I have been told that a pop is a significant mistake that has to lower PCS, even if I don't necessarily agree).

While BV is by far not everything, Conrad had the 4th lowest BV in the SP at Worlds, and apart from Boyang (whose BV was just a bit over one point higher), all of the other skaters who qualified for the Free had BVs 3.8+ points in excess of Conrad's BV (Reminder that Conrad missed out on the Free by just about 2.64 points - Literally less than switching a 3T for a 2T costs a skater in BV). His GOE, on the other hand, were the 13th highest (with one less element than most other skaters) - This does not speak of a panel that didn't want him to make the Free.

I don't think some of us are minimizing Conrad's mistakes and weaknesses. The point that is being made is that his starting order probably influenced his results, and finishing just a couple points away from the Q, is even harsher considering some of the men with easier tricks had errors on pretty much every jumping pass and still were not hammered as much in the end.

As a fan of this sport for many years, I fear that Conrad will be pigeonholed in the "low GOE/PCS category" just like Nam for instance or even Joannie who had to climb her way up to get good scores early on in her career. Conrad may have received the 13th score on GOE but it can be seen both ways... for instance, if we look at individual elements, where did Conrad combo compare to other quad combos? Or his 3axel? His GOE is relatively high because he landed big elements... but did he really receive high GOE compared to those who did land these tricks? I am not so sure about that... Skaters who performed triples badly got less GOE but were not penalized enough in comparison and scored ahead. Anyways... I have Conrad's photo on my avatar... so don't mind me too much. I am just overprotective.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Conrad may have received the 13th score on GOE but it can be seen both ways... for instance, if we look at individual elements, where did Conrad combo compare to other quad combos? Or his 3axel?

The total score of his combo was 19 out of 34 (keep in mind that a 3Lz+3T in the second half has a higher BV than a 4S+2T in the first half). His 3A was 6th out of 34 (the only skaters with a higher score for the 3A were Kazuki Tomono, Shoma Uno, Keegan Messing, Ilia Malinin and Junhwan Cha). In fact, it's Conrad's highest-scoring 3A ever in an international competition.

(For reference: The StSq and CSSp are at position 27 in total score, CCoSp at position 25 (mostly due to lower levels) and his FCSp at position 20. This is higher than for example Adam Hagara whose non-jump elements sit at 31, 30, 31 and 23)

 

[ladyjane]

Tbh I just see a great big argument for him being sent to WTT. He might not have attained the FS, but he did quite well despite one pop. His starting order did influence events, his 3A was scored well. You can never say though he made a mess of the SP!

 

[4everchan]

The total score of his combo was 19 out of 34 (keep in mind that a 3Lz+3T in the second half has a higher BV than a 4S+2T in the first half). His 3A was 6th out of 34 (the only skaters with a higher score for the 3A were Kazuki Tomono, Shoma Uno, Keegan Messing, Ilia Malinin and Junhwan Cha). In fact, it's Conrad's highest-scoring 3A ever in an international competition.

(For reference: The StSq and CSSp are at position 27 in total score, CCoSp at position 25 (mostly due to lower levels) and his FCSp at position 20. This is higher than for example Adam Hagara whose non-jump elements sit at 31, 30, 31 and 23)

i am not so sure there were 18 better combos than Conrad's i am also not sure Conrad should be in the low-mid 6 range for PCS. This is where we will have to leave the numbers game. I am perfectly aware he lost a lot of points with the invalid pop. I watched the event live, despite the crazy time of the day/night.. and my impression is simply that some skaters didn't do significantly better but were skating later and got their Q... that's all some of us are saying and that's the issue... the early starters are penalized and it should stop...
I actually believe that for the SP, skaters should just draw a number...even the seeded skaters. Especially in ice dance.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Tbh I just see a great big argument for him being sent to WTT. He might not have attained the FS, but he did quite well despite one pop.

Yes, with a decent 4T, he would have very likely scored 77+ (maybe even low 80s, despite "only" doing a 4+2 combo instead of 4+3), which would have placed him in the top 15/top 12.

I almost feel like Skate Canada had already decided that Stephen would go to WTT before Worlds even rolled around, or that Conrad himself declined because of his blade issue because there's no sense in him not even being on the substitute list otherwise.

 

[4everchan]

Yes, with a decent 4T, he would have very likely scored 77+ (maybe even low 80s, despite "only" doing a 4+2 combo instead of 4+3), which would have placed him in the top 15/top 12.

I almost feel like Skate Canada had already decided that Stephen would go to WTT before Worlds even rolled around, or that Conrad himself declined because of his blade issue because there's no sense in him not even being on the substitute list otherwise.

1) but that's the point right... let's assume he makes his 4toe... and then he is just 15th? when some guys place high enough without much... not trying to belittle skaters without quads... just trying to say that a skater like Conrad deserves a bit better. that's all. And also, the simple fact, that for a skater early in the starting order, mistakes are much more costly than to those later on... I am not imagining anything here A guy from the final group who would pop one of his quads would get significantly higher... and not just PCS wise (assuming they deserve all their PCS points).
2) Yes... that's what I think. I think that the deal was that the top dog at 4cc would get worlds and the other, wtt... However, it is unfortunate for Conrad that he didn't get to ride his season's momentum... Stephen performed one good program all season (okay i am exaggerating, but other than his LP at Nationals, there is a lot left to be desired for...)

 

[Jumping_Bean]

The thing is, and please don't take this the wrong way, many of the skaters that would still place above Conrad have qualities that can make up for mistakes or lack of difficulty, which Conrad doesn't really have yet. Think along the lines of Jason Brown's skating skills and spins, or Kazuki Tomono's performance skills. (There are some skaters though who receive scores that are baffling to me as well, like Daniel Grassl's high PCS and GOEs on technically very flawed jumps)

Another consistent issue for Conrad is losing levels on spins and step sequences. Now, he is not at all alone in this, many young men have the same issue, it often just takes some time for them to sort out their growing limbs. With the same GOE on his spins, it probably still wouldn't have been quite enough to qualify for the Free even with all level 4, but there's certainly a bit of GOE inflation when skaters achieve max. levels. If he can get up those levels, his scores with two quads wouldn't be in the low 80s, but would easily move up to at least the mid 80s, which would put him in the top 10 at most World Championships in the last Olympic cycle (except for last season, but we all know about Olympic season inflation, so that doesn't count ).

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Different issue - After a few recent splits and some talk about which teams are moving up to Seniors next season, I was curious to see which Canadian pairs/ice dance teams would be able to compete as Junior internationally next season. All of those crossed out are either aging out or not yet age-eligible, and the individual skaters affected are marked with an asterisk. Teams that have split are written in cursive (unless the skaters have retired), as they could compete with a different partner next season. If a team is marked with ?, this means I was unable to find their birthdays online and wasn't able to determine their eligibility.

Junior pairs
1 Chloe Panetta* / Kieran Thrasher
2 Ava Kemp / Yohnatan Elizarov
3 Martina Ariano Kent / Alexis Leduc*
4 Ashlyn Schmitz / Tristan Taylor*
5 Jazmine Desrochers / Aidan Wright*
Novice pairs
1 Alexane Jean / Charly Laliberté-Laurent
2 Beau Callahan / Benjamin Leduc
3 Annika Behnke / Kole Sauve
4 Raphaëlle Gilbert* / Christophe Roch
5 Julia Di Menna / Félix-Antoine Chartrand
6 Natalia Custodio / Christopher Hammer
7 Ava Swinamer / Andrew Raisbeck

Junior ice dance
1 Nadiia Bashynska* / Peter Beaumont*
2 Sandrine Gauthier* / Quentin Thieren
3 Hailey Yu / Brendan Giang
4 Jordyn Lewis / Noah McMillan
5 Layla Veillon / Alexander Brandys
6 Dana Sabatini-Speciale / Nicholas Buelow
7 Alisa Korneva / Kieran MacDonald
8 Éliane Foroglou-Gadoury / Félix Desmarais*
9 Erica Estepa / Nolen Hickey
10 Lauren Batka / Jacob Yang?
11 Kaitlyn Ho? / Daniel Yu
12 Nicole Bolender / Aiden Dotzert?
13 Savanna Martel / Kobi Chant*
Chaima Ben Khelifa / Everest Zhu
Marianne Hubert / William Oddson
Novice ice dance
1 Charlotte Chung / Axel Mackenzie?
2 Victoria Carandiuc / Andrei Carandiuc
3 Auréa Cinçon-Debout / Earl Jesse Celestino
4 Amélia Dufour-Saysourinho / Anthony MacDonal
5 Chloé Mentha / Emile Deveau
6 Caroline Kravets / Jacob Stark?
7 Nelly-Anne Chao / Thierry Caron
8 Mackenzie Lockston / Philip Czarnecki?
9 Cailey Wood / Alexandre Emery?

There's going to be a lot of movement in pairs in particular, but there's also a chance for new leaders to establish themselves in Canadian Junior Ice Dance, with the top 2 teams aging out, and the third-highest ranked team having split up. I'm sure it's going to be interesting to see it all play out over the next season (and beyond), and I sure am excited to see many new faces on the JGP in a few months.

 

[4everchan]

The thing is, and please don't take this the wrong way, many of the skaters that would still place above Conrad have qualities that can make up for mistakes or lack of difficulty, which Conrad doesn't really have yet. Think along the lines of Jason Brown's skating skills and spins, or Kazuki Tomono's performance skills. (There are some skaters though who receive scores that are baffling to me as well, like Daniel Grassl's high PCS and GOEs on technically very flawed jumps)

Another consistent issue for Conrad is losing levels on spins and step sequences. Now, he is not at all alone in this, many young men have the same issue, it often just takes some time for them to sort out their growing limbs. With the same GOE on his spins, it probably still wouldn't have been quite enough to qualify for the Free even with all level 4, but there's certainly a bit of GOE inflation when skaters achieve max. levels. If he can get up those levels, his scores with two quads wouldn't be in the low 80s, but would easily move up to at least the mid 80s, which would put him in the top 10 at most World Championships in the last Olympic cycle (except for last season, but we all know about Olympic season inflation, so that doesn't count ).

i am not talking about brown or tomono... but some others... very aware of conrad's weaknesses but at the same time, very aware of the judges' tendencies to just pigeonhole some of our skaters no matter how they improve

 

[4everchan]

Different issue - After a few recent splits and some talk about which teams are moving up to Seniors next season, I was curious to see which Canadian pairs/ice dance teams would be able to compete as Junior internationally next season. All of those crossed out are either aging out or not yet age-eligible, and the individual skaters affected are marked with an asterisk. Teams that have split are written in cursive (unless the skaters have retired), as they could compete with a different partner next season. If a team is marked with ?, this means I was unable to find their birthdays online and wasn't able to determine their eligibility.

Junior pairs
1 Chloe Panetta* / Kieran Thrasher
2 Ava Kemp / Yohnatan Elizarov
3 Martina Ariano Kent / Alexis Leduc*
4 Ashlyn Schmitz / Tristan Taylor*
5 Jazmine Desrochers / Aidan Wright*
Novice pairs
1 Alexane Jean / Charly Laliberté-Laurent
2 Beau Callahan / Benjamin Leduc
3 Annika Behnke / Kole Sauve
4 Raphaëlle Gilbert* / Christophe Roch
5 Julia Di Menna / Félix-Antoine Chartrand
6 Natalia Custodio / Christopher Hammer
7 Ava Swinamer / Andrew Raisbeck

Junior ice dance
1 Nadiia Bashynska* / Peter Beaumont*
2 Sandrine Gauthier* / Quentin Thieren
3 Hailey Yu / Brendan Giang
4 Jordyn Lewis / Noah McMillan
5 Layla Veillon / Alexander Brandys
6 Dana Sabatini-Speciale / Nicholas Buelow
7 Alisa Korneva / Kieran MacDonald
8 Éliane Foroglou-Gadoury / Félix Desmarais*
9 Erica Estepa / Nolen Hickey
10 Lauren Batka / Jacob Yang?
11 Kaitlyn Ho? / Daniel Yu
12 Nicole Bolender / Aiden Dotzert?
13 Savanna Martel / Kobi Chant*
Chaima Ben Khelifa / Everest Zhu
Marianne Hubert / William Oddson
Novice ice dance
1 Charlotte Chung / Axel Mackenzie?
2 Victoria Carandiuc / Andrei Carandiuc
3 Auréa Cinçon-Debout / Earl Jesse Celestino
4 Amélia Dufour-Saysourinho / Anthony MacDonal
5 Chloé Mentha / Emile Deveau
6 Caroline Kravets / Jacob Stark?
7 Nelly-Anne Chao / Thierry Caron
8 Mackenzie Lockston / Philip Czarnecki?
9 Cailey Wood / Alexandre Emery?

There's going to be a lot of movement in pairs in particular, but there's also a chance for new leaders to establish themselves in Canadian Junior Ice Dance, with the top 2 teams aging out, and the third-highest ranked team having split up. I'm sure it's going to be interesting to see it all play out over the next season (and beyond), and I sure am excited to see many new faces on the JGP in a few months.

Does anyone know about Chaima and Everest...? I think they w/d from Nationals... no idea why

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Does anyone know about Chaima and Everest...? I think they w/d from Nationals... no idea why

Yeah, I was wondering too. Chaima doesn't post much about skating, but in her most recent IG stories, she's skating alone. Everest's IG is private, so there's really no way to know what's going on with him.

The last footage of them skating together is from December 19th, so a good three weeks before they withdrew from Nationals.

 

[4everchan]

Yeah, I was wondering too. Chaima doesn't post much about skating, but in her most recent IG stories, she's skating alone. Everest's IG is private, so there's really no way to know what's going on with him.

The last footage of them skating together is from December 19th, so a good three weeks before they withdrew from Nationals.

yeah...i like them but they had such a weird season... and that often leads to splits and/or retirements... i hope they both find their way back together or not.

Other than that, I am not too worried for dance. Pairs will be interesting.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I don't think it was a "political boost" that won the Italians the silver,

It doesn't really matter how good their technique is. For sure, they work very hard on the tech side, and on all aspects of their skating. While they are a pleasant team to watch, they aren't a great physical match.

There's no way to discount the political factor. Cinquanta didn't exert a chokehold over the ISU presidency for so long for no reason. All Italian figure skaters have a lot of political support whether or not anyone wishes to acknowledge that as a factor in the scoring.

As I said earlier, G/F winning Euros was just what they needed for the judges to have further reasons to elevate them. Heck, Cappellini/ Lanotte won Worlds debatably, largely due to the political factor. Now in pairs too, the Italian teams, who are average at best, are being pushed up. Yeah, they work hard, they are passionate and they have a level of consistency for what they are able to do, which makes it easier for the politics to help them.

Laurence F-B is technically great too, and Sorenson is an able partner, plus F-B/S are a better matched pair physically than G/F. Thus politics enters in, because Laurence/ Nik are seen as the second Canadian team behind Piper/ Paul, regardless of equal ability in fact, to all the top teams. Laurence/ Nik are then scored and placed based on political hierarchy, rather than fully on the basis of their talent and their performance.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I would add Matteo Rizzo and Boyang Jin.

Matteo Rizzo is a good skater, and he had a good season. He has influential political backing as an Italian fs. But he delivers more often than not, and he has high-level skills. He was never in danger of being cut anyway. I don't remember his sp, but it can't have been that bad.

For sure, Boyang has been cushioned
and protected over the years. He has full backing from Chinese fed, and now, he also trains at the Cricket Club. He's coming back from injury, and he didn't fare well at Worlds. I think what we see is what we'll be getting from him mostly.