2022/23 Ice Dance Technical Requirements (Jr. and Sr.) Announced

[kolyadafan2002]

Honestly I'm flabbergasted. They are trying to figure out how to destroy ice dance. Juniors suddenly is 10x better to watch than seniors.

Maybe they are trying to motivate more figure skaters to move to Ice Dance like Takahashi as they've removed one of the most difficult barriers to doing so. Or maybe they are trying to benefit certain skaters from certain federations.
Either way, I hope the response is big and we see a U-turn, as I've just had enough with the ISU.

BTW, to clarify entire response above is about the pattern dances ^

 

[lariko]

What are those pattern dances, guys?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What are those pattern dances, guys?

For Juniors its fine, they picked a great dance (Argentine Tango).

For seniors there is no Pattern dance!!! They've removed pattern dance! There is a rhythm dance, but no pattern dance inside the rhythm dance! For me, they have ruined ice dance. (sorry if this is patronising but in general for everybody to understand)

 

[lariko]

For Juniors its fine, they picked a great dance (Argentine Tango).

For seniors there is no Pattern dance!!! They've removed pattern dance! There is a rhythm dance, but no pattern dance inside the rhythm dance! For me, they have ruined ice dance. (sorry if this is patronising but in general for everybody to understand)

What’s the difference between pattern and rhythm dance? Why is one better than another?

And which part was the pattern dance this year? Was is that midnight blues thing?

 

[kolyadafan2002]

What’s the difference between pattern and rhythm dance? Why is one better than another?

And which part was the pattern dance this year? Was is that midnight blues thing?

Rhythm daces have always had pattern dances - for years they've been the same program.
So the Pattern dance is midnight blues, and the ISU set a theme (street dance).

Within the rhythm dance, they perform a pattern dance (e.g. the midnight blues), and that is the patonage within the rhythm dance.
Then they perform a number of elements in addition to the required pattern dance (e.g. Twizzles, lift).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtMsnbYwozA -> this is the rhythm dance, containing a pattern dance within (from 1:40) as well as the other elements.

So for this year, they've removed the pattern dance from the rhythm dance. So they still perform the rhythm dance, but no longer perform the pattern dance elements (SO imagine the rhythm dances this year, but with no pattern [No midnight blues], and instead performing other additional elements e.g. step sequence).

In the end for me, it's another free dance except shorter and with a required theme.

 

[lariko]

Rhythm daces have always had pattern dances - for years they've been the same program.
So the Pattern dance is midnight blues, and the ISU set a theme (street dance).

Within the rhythm dance, they perform a pattern dance (e.g. the midnight blues), and that is the patonage within the rhythm dance.
Then they perform a number of elements in addition to the required pattern dance (e.g. Twizzles, lift).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtMsnbYwozA -> this is the rhythm dance, containing a pattern dance within (from 1:40) as well as the other elements.

So for this year, they've removed the pattern dance from the rhythm dance. So they still perform the rhythm dance, but no longer perform the pattern dance elements (SO imagine the rhythm dances this year, but with no pattern [No midnight blues], and instead performing other additional elements e.g. step sequence).

In the end for me, it's another free dance except shorter and with a required theme.

So, Latin dance is the theme here? Like why tango is pattern an salsa is not?

Please, don’t kill me, but I loved street dance theme, and hated midnight blues…

 

[lariko]

Or is the problem because it would be more or less the same if they said in singles, Seniors don’t have to show 2A/3A in Short and could replace it with a spin instead?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

So, Latin dance is the theme here? Like why tango is pattern an salsa is not?

Yes, the overall theme is Latin and the senior teams can pick 2 rhythms from Salsa, Bachata, Merengue, Mambo, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba.

The ISU has then picked argentine tango as the pattern for the juniors. Not all the set rhythms have an assigned pattern yet (such as the salsa) or maybe the ISU hasn't chosen a pattern for that dance style yet.
Full list of pattern dances here: https://www.ice-dance.com/site/pattern-dance-descriptions-patterns/

Or is the problem because it would be more or less the same if they said in singles, Seniors don’t have to show 2A/3A in Short and could replace it with a spin instead?

For me, I think the problem is that previously the pattern allowed all the teams to be directly compared to each other. All the teams did the same series of steps, at (almost) the same speed, allowing the judges (and the fans) to compare one team to another, as well as making teams really focus on the technical execution of the pattern in order to hit the key points. Now without the pattern, as @kolyadafan2002 says above, the RD becomes much freer and with a much wider range of rhythm choices (as teams don't have to find a piece of music which fits with the required beat for the pattern dance), and thus is almost a short FD, with a broad theme.

 

[lariko]

Yes, the overall theme is Latin and the senior teams can pick 2 rhythms from Salsa, Bachata, Merengue, Mambo, Cha Cha, Rhumba, Samba.

The ISU has then picked argentine tango as the pattern for the juniors. Not all the set rhythms have an assigned pattern yet (such as the salsa) or maybe the ISU hasn't chosen a pattern for that dance style yet.
Full list of pattern dances here: https://www.ice-dance.com/site/pattern-dance-descriptions-patterns/


For me, I think the problem is that previously the pattern allowed all the teams to be directly compared to each other. All the teams did the same series of steps, at (almost) the same speed, allowing the judges (and the fans) to compare one team to another, as well as making teams really focus on the technical execution of the pattern in order to hit the key points. Now without the pattern, as @kolyadafan2002 says above, the RD becomes much freer and with a much wider range of rhythm choices (as teams don't have to find a piece of music which fits with the required beat for the pattern dance), and thus is almost a short FD, with a broad theme.

So, on the list of the patterns, there is something called Silver Samba... basically, they should have chose that? But they couldn't because it would not fit well with other Latin dances?

I get the difference now, thanks!

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

So, on the list of the patterns, there is something called Silver Samba... basically, they should have chose that? But they couldn't because it would not fit well with other Latin dances?

I get the difference now, thanks!

You're right, if they had wanted to choose a pattern to fit with their Latin theme they could've gone with the Silver Samba, or with the Cha Cha Congelado.

My guess would be that the ISU wants to make the RDs more varied and original, and, as you say, having the pattern makes it harder to combine 2 rhythms or dances together (as was seen during this season with some rather awful music cuts in some RDs.).

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

According to Jackie Wong, this might be a choreo assisted jump...

A couple of other possible versions which I spotted on Twitter:

 

[lariko]

You're right, if they had wanted to choose a pattern to fit with their Latin theme they could've gone with the Silver Samba, or with the Cha Cha Congelado.

My guess would be that the ISU wants to make the RDs more varied and original, and, as you say, having the pattern makes it harder to combine 2 rhythms or dances together (as was seen during this season with some rather awful music cuts in some RDs.).

Some of it was really ugly this year. I don’t mean to insult anyone, but yes. Some was very creative though.

 

[Anna K.]

My guess would be that the ISU wants to make the RDs more varied and original, and, as you say, having the pattern makes it harder to combine 2 rhythms or dances together (as was seen during this season with some rather awful music cuts in some RDs.).

Finding two suitable musical pieces with different rhythms and combining them successfully is not an easy task anyway.. My prediction is that we'll get a good share of awful music cuts next season as well.

Signed, the pessimist.

 

[synesthesia]

Maybe they are trying to motivate more figure skaters to move to Ice Dance like Takahashi as they've removed one of the most difficult barriers to doing so.

I doubt it will have that effect, nor do I think that’s the intention (if anything they should try to recruit more skaters into the pairs discipline).

The biggest barrier to taking up ice dance (or pairs) is finding a suitable partner/a partnership that works longterm plus learning the partnering skills. The main reason why we don’t see many skaters switch disciplines at an advanced age (20+) is because, aside from learning the basic skills, it takes time for teams to gel. I’m sure extremely late switches like Dai’s will stay an anomaly (if not singular) at the elite level – the lack of pattern dances won’t change that. Moreover if you look at teams comprised of two former singles skaters like Muramoto/Takahashi or Turkkila/Versluis or singles skaters, who teamed up with experienced ice dancers like Walker or Ambrulevičius (or Kana with Chris), they aren’t generally weaker at the pattern dances than skaters, who primarily focused on ice dance from an early age. On the other hand there are long-time ice dancers, who possess many great qualities required in id, but struggle with the patterns (and step sequences) due to so so edge quality (most of the time it’s one partner in a team, rarely both). And established teams with weaker patterns are able to score as much as or even more than lower ranked teams, who hit all 4 KPs anyway, because what they lack in bv, judges are willing to award them in GOEs instead. But at least it was a leveled element, that allowed some distinction between teams within the same tier. Replacing it with a non-leveled element will only make the scoring shenanigans worse, as some here have already said. I can’t imagine it’s going to convince anyone to switch, if the scoring gets even murkier and the wait-your-turn tradition is reinforced.

 

[lariko]

Well, maybe more people would watch juniors and explain tango to me it sure will be a steamy season.

 

[Anna K.]

I looked up on YouTube a playlist of tango remixes of modern hits for ballroom dancing (dance demonstrations included) just to check if I can survive 30 tangos in a row. Eventually it was fun (The Game of Thrones theme tango was the best imao).

Since tango is for juniors and not seniors, I think there is a hope that at least some teams will tango up some crazy stuff. I really (fingers crossed) hope so.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Well, maybe more people would watch juniors and explain tango to me it sure will be a steamy season.

Check out the junior short dances in the 2018/19 season. That was the most recent time they did Tango. Lajoie/Lagha and Shevchenko/Eremenko were battling it out at the top, those were the days

If you want to learn to recognise the Argentine Tango pattern itself, try watching 1998 Olympic and 2009 World Champ compulsories (I really liked Anissina/Peizerat, Delobel/Schoenfelder, Virtue/Moir). This is what it looks like when teams have to compete without relying on fancy choreography, twizzles or fancy lifts.

I feel like the initiative to ditch pattern dances might have come from people who are not very good at them I'm dubious about next year's 'pattern-type steps' because most step sequences in recent years look a bit same-y from the waist down, with most of the differentiation coming from upper body stuff and transitional things like mini lifts, and are less demanding than pattern dances on things like precise musicality and tight dance holds.

 

[auser]

For me, I think the problem is that previously the pattern allowed all the teams to be directly compared to each other. All the teams did the same series of steps, at (almost) the same speed, allowing the judges (and the fans) to compare one team to another, as well as making teams really focus on the technical execution of the pattern in order to hit the key points

This is what confounds me. I thought when Compulsory Dance and Original Dance were sort of merged to become first Short Dance and then Rhythm Dance, it was so we could still have something like an apples to apples comparison between the dance teams similar to when Compulsory Dance was still performed. Plus I liked the technical aspect you mentioned. And without that I am somewhat afraid there will be more nay-saying about ice dance as a sport. Sorry, I think I am still in shock about the loss of pattern dances for seniors.

 

[lariko]

Check out the junior short dances in the 2018/19 season. That was the most recent time they did Tango. Lajoie/Lagha and Shevchenko/Eremenko were battling it out at the top, those were the days

If you want to learn to recognise the Argentine Tango pattern itself, try watching 1998 Olympic and 2009 World Champ compulsories (I really liked Anissina/Peizerat, Delobel/Schoenfelder, Virtue/Moir). This is what it looks like when teams have to compete without relying on fancy choreography, twizzles or fancy lifts.

I feel like the initiative to ditch pattern dances might have come from people who are not very good at them I'm dubious about next year's 'pattern-type steps' because most step sequences in recent years look a bit same-y from the waist down, with most of the differentiation coming from upper body stuff and transitional things like mini lifts, and are less demanding than pattern dances on things like precise musicality and tight dance holds.

Oh, heh, but I like fancy lifts and choreo… and jumps. I really am looking forward to these jump sequences… am I hopeless?

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Oh, heh, but I like fancy lifts and choreo… and jumps. I really am looking forward to these jump sequences… am I hopeless?

Nah, Torvill/Dean also had fancy lifts and choreo so you're in good company. But they also slayed the field in pattern dances.
Based on the last few seasons there is already lots of encouragement for choreographic innovation (in the upper body anyway), so the main effect of ditching patterns is to lower the bar for skating skills.