Let’s dance 80’s! New Rhythm Dance article

[CaroLiza_fan]

I'm quite sure it's about a stripper, but I don't see the problem with that. Music is full of not only such lyrics, but it (prostitution rather than stripping) is also a common topic of classical music. I like the perspective and feelings in this song very much.
And the costumes are just great fun, perfect, basically better than everything I have seen in the RDs this season so far!

Here are Tina's views on the song

"Someone said, 'Why did you select "Private Dancer"? It's a song about a hooker. Is it because you've been a hooker?' And I was shocked... I didn't see her as a hooker... I can be naive about some of these things. But actually the answer is no. I took it because it was an unusual song. I'd never sung a song like it. And I wish you could hear Mark's version of it. He's got a very English-sounding voice... and it was really quite beautiful.... A very arty song... so I put the old soulful touch on it."​

Pidgeon, John: Classic Albums: Interviews from the Radio One Series (BBC, 1991): pp178-179

Don't know what Mark Knopfler's views were, though!

Whenever I listen to the song, I think of somebody who just dances in a bar, both publically for all the patrons and privately for individuals. No stripping or extra curricular activities involved. I had never seen the music video before, but I watched it there now and it seems to have a similar idea. The difference is that it is set in a ballroom, and the men are paying to actually dance with her:

Tina Turner - "Private Dancer"

Although it does go off into a fantasy sequence showing different types of dancing, there is no suggestion of any funny business going on.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[4everchan]

This is a recurring topic. Private Dancer is in the same category as Scheherazade, Big spender, Traviata, Butterfly, Miss Saigon and what not. We often discussed that these works were not appropriate for junior skaters. I am not sure why there would be a difference with Private dancer... In the operas, often, the lyrics are not put in the programs (there is actually no lyrics in Scheherazade of course) or if there are, they are hardly comprehensible to most people due to language and vocal idioms. It's a bit different with Private Dancer where the theme of the song is obvious.

Even just a few decades ago, the objectification of women was somewhat tolerated. Don't you all think it's time it changes? Don't you think that coaches, choreos and athletes themselves can contribute to that with their program selection? Enough with these archaic depiction of women.

Now, the redeeming factor here is that these two are grown-ups. At least, we don't have a 13 year old skating to Big Spender as that has happened so many times already.

 

[icewhite]

This is a recurring topic. Private Dancer is in the same category as Scheherazade, Big spender, Traviata, Butterfly, Miss Saigon and what not. We often discussed that these works were not appropriate for junior skaters. I am not sure why there would be a difference with Private dancer... In the operas, often, the lyrics are not put in the programs (there is actually no lyrics in Scheherazade of course) or if there are, they are hardly comprehensible to most people due to language and vocal idioms. It's a bit different with Private Dancer where the theme of the song is obvious.

Even just a few decades ago, the objectification of women was somewhat tolerated. Don't you all think it's time it changes? Don't you think that coaches, choreos and athletes themselves can contribute to that with their program selection? Enough with these archaic depiction of women.

Now, the redeeming factor here is that these two are grown-ups. At least, we don't have a 13 year old skating to Big Spender as that has happened so many times already.

I think the perspective here is different though - when it goes "Roxanne, you don't have to put on the red light" it's all the male perspective. The "prostitute loves client" story is mostly a men's (although sometimes women's too) fantasy.
This is a woman who sees the reality if what she does (although we aren't sure what that reality is, lol), what she really wants, she tells how she deals with the situation. She has no respect for these men, she just accepts they are there, like objects. She's aware she's an object for them, she accepts that position, hates it, but also accepts it, plays what they want her to be, while dreaming of something else. I think she's very much a subject in this song.

 

[4everchan]

I think the perspective here is different though - when it goes "Roxanne, you don't have to put on the red light" it's all the male perspective. The "prostitute loves client" story is mostly a men's (although sometimes women's too) fantasy.
This is a woman who sees the reality if what she does (although we aren't sure what that reality is, lol), what she really wants, she tells how she deals with the situation. She has no respect for these men, she just accepts they are there, like objects. She's aware she's an object for them, she accepts that position, hates it, but also accepts it, plays what they want her to be, while dreaming of something else. I think she's very much a subject in this song.

Is it really? I mean, I read your post, and yes, the angle of story-telling may be different but in the end, it's the same story... A woman is abused, she doesn't like it, she copes with it by escaping reality. Is that what we want to teach our young skaters? Accept it and think about something else, that will let you go through it ?

 

[icewhite]

Is it really? I mean, I read your post, and yes, the angle of story-telling may be different but in the end, it's the same story... A woman is abused, she doesn't like it, she copes with it by escaping reality. Is that what we want to teach our young skaters? Accept it and think about something else, that will let you go through it ?

Well, I guess I don't take the music in fs in general as serious as you. I'm not seeing it as a means of education. It's an expression of a feeling, not advice how to live your life imo. I also love opera, the premise is hardly ever what I would teach my kid. But I think kids and even more so young adults can distinguish between that (my son plays computer games playing a dictator coordinating his troops, but I don't think he will be one. Or )

 

[4everchan]

Well, I guess I don't take the music in fs in general as serious as you. I'm not seeing it as a means of education. It's an expression of a feeling, not advice how to live your life imo. I also love opera, the premise is hardly ever what I would teach my kid. But I think kids and even more so young adults can distinguish between that (my son plays computer games playing a dictator coordinating his troops, but I don't think he will be one. Or )

I know I am hardcore here. When you have seen so many of your classmates die on stage (among other ailments), at one point, it gets too much. I am fine that others don't see it that way. However, I wish that there was a bit more care in selecting appropriate topics for younger skaters. In some cases, the skaters have no idea what they are skating to. I think it's important for young people nowadays, who end up on social media, who are scrutinized in all sorts of ways, to be given the appropriate knowledge. Regarding your son, I doubt his gaming is seen by a bunch of people on youtube or live at rinks all over the world And, you will see soon enough if the game gets to him, in how he behaves with his siblings

 

[icewhite]

I know I am hardcore here. When you have seen so many of your classmates die on stage, at one point, it gets too much. I am fine that others don't see it that way. However, I wish that there was a bit more care in selecting appropriate topics for younger skaters. In some cases, the skaters have no idea what they are skating to. I think it's important for young people nowadays, who end up on social media, who are scrutinized in all sorts of ways, to be given the appropriate knowledge. Regarding your son, I doubt his gaming is seen by a bunch of people on youtube or live at rinks all over the world And, you will see soon enough if the game gets to him, in how he behaves with his siblings

He has no siblings, so no early warning signs. But maybe I will see one day when he tries to take over Austria.
Don't blame me. I was busy watching figure skating.

 

[4everchan]

He has no siblings, so no early warning signs. But maybe I will see one day when he tries to take over Austria.
Don't blame me. I was busy watching figure skating.

Hate to break it to you but before taking over Austria, he will certainly take over Mama und Papa.

 

[Magill]

This is a recurring topic. Private Dancer is in the same category as Scheherazade, Big spender, Traviata, Butterfly, Miss Saigon and what not. We often discussed that these works were not appropriate for junior skaters. I am not sure why there would be a difference with Private dancer... In the operas, often, the lyrics are not put in the programs (there is actually no lyrics in Scheherazade of course) or if there are, they are hardly comprehensible to most people due to language and vocal idioms. It's a bit different with Private Dancer where the theme of the song is obvious.

Even just a few decades ago, the objectification of women was somewhat tolerated. Don't you all think it's time it changes? Don't you think that coaches, choreos and athletes themselves can contribute to that with their program selection? Enough with these archaic depiction of women.

Now, the redeeming factor here is that these two are grown-ups. At least, we don't have a 13 year old skating to Big Spender as that has happened so many times already.

But are these guys juniors or seniors? I saw people referring to them as adults and you refer to Big Spender skated by 13 y.o.a. then Sasha Trusova for comparison. It gets a bit confusing...

 

[4everchan]

But are these guys juniors or seniors? I saw people referring to them as adults and you refer to Big Spender skated by 13 y.o.a. then Sasha Trusova for comparison. It gets a bit confusing...

These guys are seniors. I have mentioned that in my post. The pill may be easier to swallow that way but it still isn't a great choice. And kids look up at what grown-ups do. Just for the records, I wasn't singling out Trusova, there have been a ton of Big Spender teenagers. I haven't mentioned any young skaters. If one takes the time to read the couple posts I have made, there is nothing confusing in what I wrote. You may disagree with it, but my position is clear.
BTW in Canada, if I recall correctly as I am not a lawyer, paying an adult for sexual services is not a crime, but of course, wouldn't necessarily be well-perceived. But paying a minor for sexual services, is a crime.

 

[Magill]

These guys are seniors. I have mentioned that in my post. The pill may be easier to swallow that way but it still isn't a great choice. And kids look up at what grown-ups do. Just for the records, I wasn't singling out Trusova, there have been a ton of Big Spender teenagers. I haven't mentioned any young skaters. If one takes the time to read the couple posts I have made, there is nothing confusing in what I wrote. You may disagree with it, but my position is clear.
BTW in Canada, if I recall correctly as I am not a lawyer, paying an adult for sexual services is not a crime, but of course, wouldn't necessarily be well-perceived. But paying a minor for sexual services, is a crime.

Oh, I didn't mean your posts were confusing as such, just the whole discussion ...

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

It was not a personal attack. I just wanted to let you know that somebody had gone down that route, and wanted to know your opinion of it.

I have to disagree with you about the lyrics. I have read through the lyrics, and there in there is nothing whatsoever in there that indicates that it is about a stripper or a prostitute:

https://lyrics.lyricfind.com/en-GB/lyrics/tina-turner-private-dancer

It is about a person who dances for a living. Not all dancers are strippers. And not all dancers (or strippers, for that matter) are prostitutes.

You are a professional skater. When you boil it all down, you "dance for money". That doesn't make you a stripper, or a prostitute. And I am sure you would be extremely angry if you thought that people assumed that you were a stripper or a prostitute because you dance for a living.

Moving on from the issue of the lyrics, if you are saying that the skating wasn't great, I do agree with you on that one. But, it's early in the season, and I wanted to give the partnership the benefit of the doubt rather than face backlash for saying out loud that they aren't the best (no pun intended). It was more the concept of the programme that I thought worked. And still do.

As for @kolyadafan2002's comments, I totally agree with him. There are too many skaters / choreographers / coaches that don't have a real understanding of the music that they are working with.

I know this is a thread about Ice Dance, but I watched Anna-Flora Colmor Jepsen's Free Skate at last week's Junior GP yesterday (I watched the Short Programme LIVE). Although there were mistakes on the skating side of things, Ted Barton was full of praise for her interpretation, saying that you could see she had a real understanding of the music.

Anna-Flora Colmor Jepsen (DEN) - 2023 ISU Junior Grand Prix Budapest FS

And for those that are interested in seeing more, here is her SP:

Anna-Flora Colmor Jepsen (DEN) - 2023 ISU Junior Grand Prix Budapest SP

These programmes (like all of Anna-Flora's programmes) were choreographed by her older sister, Leonora Colmor Jepsen. Leonora is a former Singles skater, who had a brief one season sojourn into Ice Dance when brother Linus needed a partner. She is also a singer, becoming Denmark's entry in the 2019 Eurovision Song Contest (it was a nice wee song, not one of those joke songs that Eurovision is plagued with). And all these things brought together have made her into a brilliant choreographer. And she is still only 24.

You can see from the resultant programmes that these two young sisters really do understand the music they are working with. And it really does put a lot of far more experienced skaters and choreographers to shame. I don't know if this is the case, but I get the impression that quite a few skaters and choreographers are treating the music as mere background noise, rather as the integral part of the programme that it is supposed to be. The skaters and their teams are only concerned with building up as many points as they can on the TES side, and are neglecting the PCS side. And that is not right. I'm not saying that TES and PCS should necessarily be equally balanced, but there should be more of a balance than we are getting now.

Sorry for going off on a tangent.

CaroLiza_fan

You were the one that just made it a personal attack with your reply. I originally just said you mentioned me and gave my opinion on the topic of the dance/music. And my opinion was regarding Miss Tina's lyrics, not calling skaters anything, just saying they weren't a good choice.
Yes I'm a professional skater, but I don't "Dance for Money" like a stripper. So thanks for the insult there, I have way more class than that.

The reply would also indicate one doesn't appreciate skaters in general b/c according this this opinion, we all "Dance for Money" like a stripper.
Being a professional in my field, I also understand music and dance, hence my stance on this and why I agreed with @kolyadafan2002's post and when you saying you understand and then posting your rant, shows you actually don't agree. So which is it?

You are free to feel that it's not about something, even though the lyrics are (Maybe there's a cultural or issue with not really understanding the lyrics to the song b/c of having a different native language than English)...IDK, and seriously IDC at this point.

I'm incredibly insulted and feel you went way too far with your reply to me, that wasn't even needed to that degree since I said AGREE TO DISAGREE and was friendly and whatnot about it.

SO Again Please: Let's again AGREE TO DISAGREE and move on to something more constructive.

 

[Magill]

You were the one that just made it a personal attack with your reply. I originally just said you mentioned me and gave my opinion on the topic of the dance/music. And my opinion was regarding Miss Tina's lyrics, not calling skaters anything, just saying they weren't a good choice.
Yes I'm a professional skater, but I don't "Dance for Money" like a stripper. So thanks for the insult there, I have way more class than that.

The reply would also indicate one doesn't appreciate skaters in general b/c according this this opinion, we all "Dance for Money" like a stripper.
Being a professional in my field, I also understand music and dance, hence my stance on this and why I agreed with @kolyadafan2002's post and when you saying you understand and then posting your rant, shows you actually don't agree. So which is it?

You are free to feel that it's not about something, even though the lyrics are (Maybe there's a cultural or issue with not really understanding the lyrics to the song b/c of having a different native language than English)...IDK, and seriously IDC at this point.

I'm incredibly insulted and feel you went way too far with your reply to me, that wasn't even needed to that degree since I said AGREE TO DISAGREE and was friendly and whatnot about it.

SO Again Please: Let's again AGREE TO DISAGREE and move on to something more constructive.

Well, seems like Tina Turner, quoted several posts above on the song she herself chose to sing, surely was a native speaker and a professional in her field which was music and songs (and a bit of dancing, too, although not on the ice), and you cannot really deny her certain level of international success in this professional field of hers - and yet, she apparently read these lyrics in a different way, reading different meaning into her song.... so you know, maybe people's interpretations might differ with none of them being necessarily wrong or mistaken, or not speaking English well enough...
Just saying.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

You were the one that just made it a personal attack. I just said you mentioned me and gave my opinion on the topic of the dance/music.
Yes I'm a professional skater, but I don't "Dance for Money" like a stripper. So thanks for the insult there, I have way more class than that.
Being a professional in my field, I also understand the music and dance, hence my stance on this and why I agreed with @kolyadafan2002's post and you saying you understand and then posting your rant, shows you actually don't agree. So which is it?

You are free to feel that it's not about something, even though the lyrics are (Maybe there's a cultural or issue with no really understanding the lyrics to the song b/c of having a different native language than English...IDK, and seriously IDC at this point.

I'm incredibly insulted and feel you went way too far with your reply to me, that wasn't even needed to that degree since I said AGREE TO DISAGREE and was friendly and whatnot about it.

SO PLEASE HEED THIS: Let's again AGREE TO DISAGREE and move on with your life.

Erm, did you read my post or just skim over it? Because from reading this reply, it sounds like what you read is the opposite of what I wrote.

You were the one that was assuming the "dancer" in the song was a stripper. I said not all dancers are strippers or prostitutes. And I said that if somebody assumed that about you just because you get paid for dancing, you would be angry.

How is that insulting you? It is supposed to be a compliment towards dancers and what they do (whatever surface it may be on)!

And as for @kolyadafan2002's comment, he was saying that the choreographers that are getting it right are standing out. The way I interpreted that was that he was saying that they were standing out because there aren't many that are getting it right! Now, I might have got that interpretation of the comment wrong. But, given the number of complaints in the competition threads about the Ice Dancers missing the target, I don't think so. I think that was exactly what he was saying.

I hope I have cleared things up.

Anyway, I don't want you to be angry with me. So, I apologise for any hurt I may have inadvertantly caused.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Erm, did you read my post or just skim over it? Because from reading this reply, it sounds like what you read is the opposite of what I wrote.

You were the one that was assuming the "dancer" in the song was a stripper. I said not all dancers are strippers or prostitutes. And I said that if somebody assumed that about you just because you get paid for dancing, you would be angry.

How is that insulting you? It is supposed to be a compliment towards dancers and what they do (whatever surface it may be on)!

And as for @kolyadafan2002's comment, he was saying that the choreographers that are getting it right are standing out. The way I interpreted that was that he was saying that they were standing out because there aren't many that are getting it right! Now, I might have got that interpretation of the comment wrong. But, given the number of complaints in the competition threads about the Ice Dancers missing the target, I don't think so. I think that was exactly what he was saying.

I hope I have cleared things up.

Anyway, I don't want you to be angry with me. So, I apologise for any hurt I may have inadvertantly caused.

CaroLiza_fan

The way you said "You're dancing for money" that is what I took offense as we were comparing this to the song lyrics, it basically compared one to being a "--- worker". And it's NOTHING like that.

As far as what some said prior to your last post about Tina and her interpretation...she stated right there in your quote of her that....
And I was shocked... I didn't see her as a hooker... I can be naive about some of these things. But actually the answer is no. I took it because it was an unusual song.

So plainly, Ms. Turner stated that she was naive about the meaning of the song and sang it b/c it was "unusual". She didn't really care.
I, personally didn't ever have a problem with her singing it and so on, it's when you have it on the ice and the interpretation of it that just doesn't belong. Too risque for the ice and that goes for several other songs being used. And don't get me wrong here I'm a huge 80s music fan, especially the rock end of it.



I will take the apology. And we'll just move on okay?

BTW-I agreed with Kolyadafans post long ago b/c of that reason, you don't have to explain to me what he meant...I agreed with him long before your discussion of it b/c I LIVE what he said in this sport. I know how to "get" aka understand a song and dance theme and choreograph it the way it should be, which is obviously where many are missing the mark this season.