2023 Cup of China Men's Short Program

[lariko]

He's a young skater, first year on the GP. A long way to go before he's a major championship podium contender. He's at the phase where he's growing and learning.

He was in top 6 in 4CC twice already, and a runner-up to Malinin in JWC. If he got visas for every competition he was selected for, he'd have had far more experience on the international senior stage by now. But, obviously, the kid like that is a terrible flight risk so visas are hard...

 

[Jammers]

Lucas BROUSSARD
Everybody Hurts by REM

4T< (fall)
1A*
CCSp3
3Lz+3T
StSq3
FSSp2
CCoSp4

SP: 61.05 (3rd)

Lucas, you can't skate to emo-adjacent music whilst wearing beige. I don't know why he decided to move up, there could have been funding/federation/external pressure, but another season in Juniors might not have been the worst decision. Lucas has so much potential, but I worry what rough skates like this will do to his confidence.

Mark answering my question: he wants to cement his name for the 2026 Olympics

I'm with you i was at happy at first when he moved up to Seniors since no other US Senior men are making a statement to make the 2026 Olympic team but now i think it might have been better to just stay Junior for one more season and if he skated lights out at Nationals and made the podium he could get sent to Worlds and get some Senior experience there.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It's a matter of perception. People piled on Malinin in France for a silly tumble, arguing how Adam was superior because of that, but everyone ignores here that Adam lost combo completely through a fall in China in the short, versus Shaidorov who performed all 3 elements, and performed elements where equivalent. But apparently Uno's flutz is a bigger deal, despite accurate placement in the first place.

You are mixing things up. The scoring system is imperfect to begin with. I mean, as we know, politics, reputation, previous event results, federation clout or lack thereof, are all factors, not just what happens on the ice.

I'm not sure why you are bringing Ilia vs Adam into this competition. I'm glad that I was not in the pbp threads last week. Whew! I wish we could all realize that the skaters themselves respect each other for the most part, and they all appreciate fellow competitors' talents. It would be nice if fans could calm down in this and other instances, and not get overheated and emotional.

This is not about hating on Shoma. He's an amazing skater. When he skates beautifully, plenty of times he is praised by most fans, even with slight bobbles, like at Worlds '23. Over Shoma's career, quite often he has landed on the podium with mistakes. Not all skaters can get away with that so often. IMO, the judges simply scoring accurately is best for everyone, including Shoma! We wouldn't even be talking about this, and Shoma would still be in first place by a comfortable margin, had the judges scored this element accurately. There's video evidence! That's the difference. Why didn't the tech panel do their job?? BTW, I think it's called a 'floop,' and the take-off entry was very poor too.

The sport already lacks credibility. Seeing this video posted on social media and widely lampooned, damages the sport even further. We can all complain ceaselessly about GOE and PCS, but that's murkier, when a skater skates relatively clean. When there's footage of tech errors for an element given such high GOE, then how GOE is calculated will be more pointedly questioned. PCS are always debatable and always manipulated for placements, but the judges can get away moreso with questionable PCS marks. Unless and until the sport brings in performance and choreo experts, or trains judges to better understand how to recognize various performance aspects, PCS will continue to be a debated gray area.

Then you bring up Mikhail Shadorov in connection with Adam's scores. This is not the first time, a top level skater with rep makes a mistake yet still prevails over other skaters who skated fairly clean. What is important to recognize is content and difficulty of elements. Also, determine which quads were landed or not landed, because jumps have different base values. And then, the level of performance ability between different skaters varies. Plus, as we know, younger skaters do not always have rep and cache built up, unless they happen to have talent on the scale of Shoma Uno, Yuma Kagiyama, Nathan Chen, and now Ilia Malinin, et al.

Adam Siao Him Fa came into CoC with a 300+ total score at France's GP. That carries mucho rep and status. Only a handful of male skaters have scored 300 or over, in the sport's history. So of course, Adam came into CoC with a distinct advantage over lower-ranked skaters who are still building rep, and over veteran skaters like Boyang Jin who hasn't skated well in recent years, and is now on the comeback trail.

I have felt that Mikhail is often lowballed, and I think his PCS deserve more credit. At his last GP, points were taken off for URs that weren't obvious during his performance, but were somewhat obvious, or close to the quarter on replay. At CoC, Mikhail was decently scored, IMO. Keep in mind that he's building his rep, and that he is not from a country with a powerful federation, nor does his coach have any political clout. Again, none of this is unknown rocket science. We have all witnessed these types of scenarios numerous times.

Adam came in with huge status, having skated two lights out performances under pressure, in his home country. And he skated similarly well at CoC, minus the combo pass where he got no points. Had he received points with perfect landings on the missed element, his score would have been over 100 for the sp, the same as in France. If Adam had made more than one mistake in the sp, he would have lost more points and fallen behind Shaidorov, at the least. But he didn't, so do the math. They took off a lot of points for missing the combo, but Adam still had racked up enough points on all his other wonderfully executed content, to reasonably stay ahead of Mikhail.

Sometimes we get emotional over skaters we prefer vs those we don't enjoy as much. That can be a factor in how we perceive what we think is fair or not.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Nobody calls it a floop — except the same subset of people who love cutesy jargon like trixels or flipbergers, and yet somehow wish to be taken seriously at the same time. Nobody legit in the figure skating world calls it that. A flip or lutz with an edge assist is not the same as a loop jump in terms of execution or jump mechanics, as there is no carving action on the edge curving on the ice leading to momentum in the jump. That being said, the judge who gave it a +5 is out to lunch because that is not good technique, and it does not fulfill the bullets for me to deserve anything more than a +2 or +3.

I haven't really paid attention to Mikhail before this but wow, he's got a ton of potential and is my new fave skater. Really clean jumps and challenging transitions in and out of them. His spins need a bit of work and he needs more speed but his carriage and base skating are quite good. I think he might actually contend for a World or Olympic medal at some point.

Re: GP France, credit due: Adam beat Malinin fair and square - you can point out the footwork flub but Adam independent of what Malinin did skated extremely well. But that combo was costly here. I would have actually given Shaidorov a bit more credit, certainly on the 4T+3T (amazing transitions in btw), which if he were a popular fave would have been +3/+4 instead of mainly +1/+2.

Shocked a bit by Sota - hope he can pull up because if he fails to make the GPF after a gold, that would be quite the surprise.

 

[discodisco]

If Mikhail manages to maintain third and medal, you will still gain prediction points, and be happy he medaled. I thought I was being bold placing Mikhail in 5th, in this field! These predictions are largely a matter of luck.

Who knows what shape skaters will be in from week to week, when the talent is fairly even and their performances are so unpredictable? I am not a huge fan of Yamamoto, but since he won his first GP (albeit with a bad fp), I included him in my top five at CoC. Same for Kazuki. Even though he came in 4th with a subpar performance at the same earlier GP at SC, I kept him in my top five. We'll see how it pans out in the fp.

I notice the judges still lowball Mikhail on PCS, which is not fair. Boyang is two points ahead of Mikhail on PCS, and that's just wrong. Frangipani is behind Boyang on PCS, by 1 point. That's also wrong. I think Gabriele may be a tad stronger than Mikhail and Boyang, performance-wise. In Boyang Jin's case, having good choreo helps, but it does not make a skater great musically or performance-wise. Judges hardly ever score PCS accurately though. So, par for the course.

Skating is primarily about the use of the blade on the ice. The actual skating part. It was originally called Figure Skating because it focused on figures, which have to do with the skillful use of the blade, depth of edges, speed and flow, etc.

When I think of Adam or shoma, I think of buttery edges and excellent flow with minimal effort. Contrast that to mikhail, who has some awesome transitions, but pretty poor actual skating skills. Skating on the flat more than the others, a lot more scratchy, and just not as into the ice.

All of the elements and components are built on the foundation of how the blade and the ice interact. In those areas there is no comparison between Mikhail and Adam for example. Therefore, from my perspective, everything that is built on top of that, is built on a clear difference in basic skating quality.

Choma and Adam's skates caress and make love to the ice, if that makes sense.

And one last thing, I have been so blown away by the quality of Adam's jumps in the last two competitions. Particularly in terms of the elevation. He finishes the rotation so high, and then has a bit of a delay as he drops into the ice. No question of rotation.

 

[discodisco]

Urmanov was unfairly literally hated on for winning Olympic gold over favorites who messed up. The Western media was especially nasty toward Urmanov. You had to witness some of the hate pile-on to believe it!

P.S.
Favorites messed up, i.e., Kurt Browning, and Brian Boitano in his comeback after a break, and while nursing an injury. Meanwhile, the western media wanted Elvis to win with his quad-triple pioneering, but judges refused to reward Elvis on PCS. And they probably went too overboard for Urmanov on PCS. Still, Urmanov had great tech, and he was entertaining, despite the camp and the frilly chessiness. LOL!

But his backwards crossovers. The pumping, the pumping. I used to hate that about Urmanov's skating...

 

[4everchan]

Urmanov was unfairly literally hated on for winning Olympic gold over favorites who messed up. The Western media was especially nasty toward Urmanov. You had to witness some of the hate pile-on to believe it!

P.S.
Favorites messed up, i.e., Kurt Browning, and Brian Boitano in his comeback after a break, and while nursing an injury. Meanwhile, the western media wanted Elvis to win with his quad-triple pioneering, but judges refused to reward Elvis on PCS. And they probably went too overboard for Urmanov on PCS. Still, Urmanov had great tech, and he was entertaining, despite the camp and the frilly chessiness. LOL!

PCS didn't exist back then. It was a completely different system based on ordinal ranking and not actual points.

 

[discodisco]

I would judge 4F with q, but i think GOE for his jumps were too high for the quality of his jumps today. 4F was +1 for me, 4T-3T was 2 or 3 and 3A was 1 or 2. I mean, if i gave for Adam's 4Lz +4 GOE as i would, i really can't go above +3GOE for any of Shoma's jumps today.

A quarter short on the landing, but a staggering amount of pre-rotation as well. At least a full half rotation on takeoff, not to mention the poor technique and messed up edges. That "flip" should have gotten negative GOE. I would have given it -1.

The rest of his skating though, was sublime. So reward that part, and don't artificially inflate poorly executed technical content

 

[cailuj365]

I love watching Shoma's movement across the ice, but the music is terrible. I just can't take it seriously. Actually made me cringe listening to it, and it took me out of the program. He does have wonderful skating skills and expression.

I remain impressed by Shaidarov's jumps. Ridiculous transitions in and out of them. His 4Lz GOE seems quite low compared to some other clean 4Lz GOEs we've seen. The quality of the rest of the elements is much lower though, including some pretty slow spins and flat edges during the step sequence. To me, he is kind of missing the X factor you see in future skating superstars, but he's young and has lots of time and potential. I like that he's just quietly going about his business without much hype or fanfare. I agree that he could be easily challenging for big podiums in the future.

Shame about Adam's fall on the combo. I don't see him getting any less than silver, but gold will be hard to reach now. Tough back-to-back weekends. We'll just call it 2nd GP fatigue and move on.

I liked Frangipani a lot. Disappointing and messy skate from Yamamoto after skating it so well in Canada a few weeks ago.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

A quarter short on the landing, but a staggering amount of pre-rotation as well. At least a full half rotation on takeoff, not to mention the poor technique and messed up edges. That "flip" should have gotten negative GOE. I would have given it -1.

The rest of his skating though, was sublime. So reward that part, and don't artificially inflate poorly executed technical content

I found some positives in the jump, as it is how jump looked in the air and in the correlation with the musical and skating pattern, Ive deducted 1 for the take off and 1 for the landing and came up with +1 as a final GOE. If someone wanted to deduct more for the take off and the landing then the jump ends in negative GOE i guess, but for me personally +1 looks fine.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Nobody calls it a floop — except the same subset of people who love cutesy jargon like trixels or flipbergers, and yet somehow wish to be taken seriously at the same time. Nobody legit in the figure skating world calls it that. A flip or lutz with an edge assist is not the same as a loop jump in terms of execution or jump mechanics, as there is no carving action on the edge curving on the ice leading to momentum in the jump. That being said, the judge who gave it a +5 is out to lunch because that is not good technique, and it does not fulfill the bullets for me to deserve anything more than a +2 or +3.

I haven't really paid attention to Mikhail before this but wow, he's got a ton of potential and is my new fave skater. Really clean jumps and challenging transitions in and out of them. His spins need a bit of work and he needs more speed but his carriage and base skating are quite good. I think he might actually contend for a World or Olympic medal at some point.

Re: GP France, credit due: Adam beat Malinin fair and square - you can point out the footwork flub but Adam independent of what Malinin did skated extremely well. But that combo was costly here. I would have actually given Shaidorov a bit more credit, certainly on the 4T+3T (amazing transitions in btw), which if he were a popular fave would have been +3/+4 instead of mainly +1/+2.

Shocked a bit by Sota - hope he can pull up because if he fails to make the GPF after a gold, that would be quite the surprise.

Hey, you make some excellent points. I do not disagree with your comments. Regarding my mention of 'floop,' I am repeating that from the Twitter slo-mo video linked in this thread. The SkatingScores guy (who is a former U.S. men's competitive skater with a computer programming background) re-posted the video on Twitter. He derisively mentioned 'floop,' but he also seemed to be saying there is no accurate terminology for Shoma's flawed take-off entry, which included a "hammertoe," and an obvious turning of his blade on the landing. The term 'flutz,' has often been used in reference to other flawed or wrong edge take-offs on specific jump entries. None of these terms have been officially codified or approved to describe messy take-offs on jumps.

I may suggest what I feel a tech or pcs score should be, and I have a feel for when judges are low-balling a skater on GOEs and pcs, but I am not an expert in IJS judging. I glance at protocols for specific performances to check pcs and GOE, and to see how some errors were judged, etc. In general, I agree that 88 or 89 would have been fair for Mikhail, but I was just happy Mikhail was given credit at CoC for his quads, since he had been over-scrutinized and nitpicked on jump landings at his previous GP. Most likely, Mikhail and Urmanov made sure there would be no questionable jump landings at CoC. Their deadpan expressions in the kiss 'n cry spoke volumes.

I am glad you have discovered Mikhail Shaidorov. I first saw him in his last season in juniors, and I liked him right away. I've always been impressed by his jumping ability and his skating style, which is reminiscent of his coach, Urmanov. I really enjoy Mikhail's Matrix sp too. Now I have to catch up with the fp replays. I don't know what the outcome is yet.

 

[4everchan]

I am a bit confused about reading Flutz and Shoma in some posts because Shoma doesn't even do a lutz in his programs anymore.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hey, you make some excellent points. I do not disagree with your comments. Regarding my mention of 'floop,' I am repeating that from the Twitter slo-mo video linked in this thread. The SkatingScores guy (who is a former U.S. men's competitive skater with a computer programming background) re-posted the video on Twitter. He derisively mentioned 'floop,' but he also seemed to be saying there is no accurate terminology for Shoma's flawed take-off entry, which included a "hammertoe," and an obvious turning of his blade on the landing. The term 'flutz,' has often been used in reference to other flawed or wrong edge take-offs on specific jump entries. None of these terms have been officially codified or approved to describe messy take-offs on jumps.

I may suggest what I feel a tech or pcs score should be, and I have a feel for when judges are low-balling a skater on GOEs and pcs, but I am not an expert in IJS judging. I glance at protocols for specific performances to check pcs and GOE, and to see how some errors were judged, etc. In general, I agree that 88 or 89 would have been fair for Mikhail, but I was just happy Mikhail was given credit at CoC for his quads, since he had been over-scrutinized and nitpicked on jump landings at his previous GP. Most likely, Mikhail and Urmanov made sure there would be no questionable jump landings at CoC. Their deadpan expressions in the kiss 'n cry spoke volumes.

I am glad you have discovered Mikhail Shaidorov. I first saw him in his last season in juniors, and I liked him right away. I've always been impressed by his jumping ability and his skating style, which is reminiscent of his coach, Urmanov. I really enjoy Mikhail's Matrix sp too. Now I have to catch up with the fp replays. I don't know what the outcome is yet.

Thanks for clarifying. I do think Mikhail was hosed a bit by the tech panel in the FS and should have placed ahead of Shoma in the FS for sure.

His landings have excellent posture and his jumps look easy and effortless - give him a year of good results and hopefully consistency (and improved speed/composition) and like Adam he'll get the GOE he needs to chase the top guys. With proper judging he might have pushed 20

 

[4everchan]

Thanks for clarifying. I do think Mikhail was hosed a bit by the tech panel in the FS and should have placed ahead of Shoma in the FS for sure.

His landings have excellent posture and his jumps look easy and effortless - give him a year of good results and hopefully consistency (and improved speed/composition) and like Adam he'll get the GOE he needs to chase the top guys. With proper judging he might have pushed 20

Interesting... we often agree but not this time. I don't see Mikhail the same way you do Not at all. Oh well, we can't always sing in harmony.

 

[icewhite]

Thanks for clarifying. I do think Mikhail was hosed a bit by the tech panel in the FS and should have placed ahead of Shoma in the FS for sure.

His landings have excellent posture and his jumps look easy and effortless - give him a year of good results and hopefully consistency (and improved speed/composition) and like Adam he'll get the GOE he needs to chase the top guys. With proper judging he might have pushed 20

I think Adam is still very underrated, despite all his recent showings.
He's head and shoulders above guys like Shaidorov in the PCS he deserves, and honestly I see him above Shoma in that regard (as did the judging panel here (in the FS), but who knows how they will decide when Shoma skates clean).

People seem to think Adam is just a guy who is now rather consistently jumping incredible outlets and pulling out some tricks, but I think his skating is incredibly strong in all areas.

 

[lariko]

The sport already lacks credibility. Seeing this video posted on social media and widely lampooned, damages the sport even further. We can all complain ceaselessly about GOE and PCS, but that's murkier, when a skater skates relatively clean. When there's footage of tech errors for an element given such high GOE, then how GOE is calculated will be more pointedly questioned. PCS are always debatable and always manipulated for placements, but the judges can get away moreso with questionable PCS marks. Unless and until the sport brings in performance and choreo experts, or trains judges to better understand how to recognize various performance aspects, PCS will continue to be a debated gray area.

They tried to simplify the PCS, dividing them very specifically into 3 parts:

Composition of the program (as executed)
Artistic Performance
Skating Skill

Shaidorov should score higher in the first 2 comps. Sure, he doesn't have the same knees as Uno or Fa, but that's just one thing! He compensates for it witn transitions and use of upper body and arms. I mean, he and other skaters who are not born with low carriage should have venues to win and can't just be told to check their hopes at the doors!

He also shouldn't be dinged for UR and qs next to other competitors. It's way too visible a difference, particularly in Canada, how his rotations are calculated versus the rep skaters. He was less lowballed in China than he was in Canada, and I am happy about it, but overall his treatment in GP is a great example of what exactly is wrong with figure skating judging.

No matter how important any one part of figure skating is, it can't be the only thing that determines standings and the scores should NOT be manipulated because of it, as they are for Shaidorov. The less bias, the better and the Canadian tech panel was atrocious in respect to this. Chinese was better, but not stellar.

They still didn't score on what they saw, but on their perception of standings. Even huge mistake by Fa, the one that would have sent anyone in this dozen of skaters (save for Uno and Fa) to the 9-12th position...didn't impact their decision.

imo, that's just terrible and that's what makes figure skating so prone to idolizarion over honest competition where in truth every challenger stands a chance of success in every competition--which is what a sport is about.

They shouldn't do that, shouldn't manipulate the scores! I mean, Russians got ostracized for it, but how hypocritical it is that it's okay for everyone else with some flimsy excuse of soft knees! I mean, we are coming to the point when Russians in Kazan' are judging with more fair hand than Canadians in Vancouver! What in the world?!

 

[Baron Vladimir]

They tried to simplify the PCS, dividing them very specifically into 3 parts:

Composition of the program (as executed)
Artistic Performance
Skating Skill

Shaidorov should score higher in the first 2 comps. Sure, he doesn't have the same knees as Uno or Fa, but that's just one thing! He compensates for it witn transitions and use of upper body and arms. I mean, he and other skaters who are not born with low carriage should have venues to win and can't just be told to check their hopes at the doors!

'Old' TRansition score is now mainly part of CO(mposition) score, but also part of SS score. What he is lacking compared to Adam and Shoma is speed, and everything 'looks better' live skated with more speed.

 

[lariko]

'Old' TRansition score is now mainly part of CO(mposition) score, but also part of SS score. What he is visibly lacking compared to Adam and Shoma is speed, and everything looks better live skated with more speed.

So, that should actually help Shaidorov, increasing his SS as well as CO.

I saw Uno and Fa live, and Uno is obviously off the charts, but Fa didn’t have the same burst a year ago. Did he increase it dramatically?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

So, that should actually help Shaidorov, increasing his SS as well as CO.

Yes, if he can just skate it with more speed. But his transitions are indeed very good.

 

[lariko]

Yes, if he can just skate it with more speed.

Did he see them live side by side? Because TV doesn't translate speed well. I remeber last year JWC, Broussard looked far, far better on TV in short than he did on ice. I mean, I will see all 3 hopefully in Montreal, but until then...I saw Uno, I saw Fa.