2023 Skate Canada Men's Free Skate

[4everchan]

I like him, though I also haven't seen him life . But with all due respect, his 4Lz was gorgeous with basically the same GoE that Malinin got last week for his 4Lz, versus Rizzo's loop that even judges thought was tripple and who held his arms down for the first 30 seconds of the program until he put in his 2 quads. Watching hard splat after hard splat vs clean program, and with audience reacting very positively to Shaidorov's skate...I am pretty darn sure people buy his artistic vision for CB. And how Tomono manged to even skate to the end... who knows. And that Cha was 7 points ahead with a fall in the short.... anyway, I can't disagree more with the judging.

This damn zigzagging in judging is frustrating. We want clean and pretty programs, not falls on big jumps...oops, nope, when it comes to Shaidorov, we'd rather have falls.

I mean I would have understood it if everyone skated beautifully like Malinin, but in an event when nobody else (literally!) except Shaidorov put 2 clean skates, actually, it was a splatter fest, and Shaidorov didn’t go clean by cheating and jumping doubles and triples, not rewarding this is obnoxious.

All I will say is that the crowd may be reacting to the intensity of the music. I didn't think he sold CB very well. The music seemed too big for his presence.
I don't think judges were bad here. Shaidorov's lutz was Q in the SP and he only did a 4t-2t... doing a double jumps removes a lot of the tech advantage gained on the quad. His spins received poor low GOE so that's also how he lost points. His PCS even rose in the LP (with 6.8 average in the SP compared to 7.4 average in the LP.
In the LP, he received quite a lot of tech calls. Sometimes jumps can look good but are still cheated and on the quarter. As you know, when a jump gets such a tech call, the GOE is automatically lower.

So that's the issue here : if Shiadorov wants to be a contender, he needs to clean up his rotation, improves his spins and have better presence. I know you like skaters who have the big tricks but judges will usually favour skaters who can do both. The BV is already a huge advantage given to the jumpers. I don't think Shaidorov skated so much better than the others here that he was robbed of a podium spot. Also, one cannot put the blame on "Canada/home cooking" here as Canada didn't have a contender for top 5 here...

 

[icewhite]

I like him, though I also haven't seen him life . But with all due respect, his 4Lz was gorgeous with basically the same GoE that Malinin got last week for his 4Lz, versus Rizzo's loop that even judges thought was tripple and who held his arms down for the first 30 seconds of the program until he put in his 2 quads. Watching hard splat after hard splat vs clean program, and with audience reacting very positively to Shaidorov's skate...I am pretty darn sure people buy his artistic vision for CB. And how Tomono manged to even skate to the end... who knows. And that Cha was 7 points ahead with a fall in the short.... anyway, I can't disagree more with the judging.

This damn zigzagging in judging is frustrating. We want clean and pretty programs, not falls on big jumps...oops, nope, when it comes to Shaidorov, we'd rather have falls.

I mean I would have understood it if everyone skated beautifully like Malinin, but in an event when nobody else (literally!) except Shaidorov put 2 clean skates, actually, it was a splatter fest, and Shaidorov didn’t go clean by cheating and jumping doubles and triples, not rewarding this is obnoxious.

I don't even know what you are talking about.
Rizzo's program is not a smasher, my, it's Coldplay, and he wasn't at his best, there was a stumble, there was that messed up triple axle, but I didn't see him falling, his 4 loop was very good and nothing to complain about at all, he certainly didn't have a splat fest skate but a very good, although not perfect one. This program doesn't make him shine, but you can well see the softness and fluency in his movements which stand out compared to many skaters and certainly in comparison to Shaidorov, who looks pretty stiff. Also in this program Shaidorov skates a lot on two feet, has no speed and there are a lot of standstill moments. He does some nice but hardly extraordinary movements to fill the gaps, but his skating skills are nothing to get excited about. His choreo is okay, but not more (just like Rizzo's, although in a different way).
PCS are not mainly about skating clean, they are mostly about skating skills, about controlling your blades, about having great gliding technique, speed, flow etc. etc. and there's nothing in Shaidorov's skating that makes me think that a PCS score of about 7.5 is underscored.
I also don't think at all that Rizzo is overscored with low 8s.

 

[cailuj365]

Agreed re: Shaidarov. He has shown he can jump well, but the program left a bit to be desired overall and he lacks the skating skills to match the music. The last CB program I've seen where the big tricks and skills fit the music and intensity was Volosozhar/Trankov's SP from 2011. He has a lot of potential though, and he can score a lot higher once he is a more complete skater and fix the rotation calls. Definitely one to watch, and I can see him giving Malinin and others serious competition within a few years.

 

[Crowdproud]

[...]
PCS are not mainly about skating clean, they are mostly about skating skills, about controlling your blades, about having great gliding technique, speed, flow etc. etc. and there's nothing in Shaidorov's skating that makes me think that a PCS score of about 7.5 is underscored.
I also don't think at all that Rizzo is overscored with low 8s.

No questions about the FS where the PCS were reasonable, but I question the 12th rank in PCS Shaidorov got in the SP, with average PCS of 6.87. Even Mark Hanretty was commenting about the intricate choreography and complex transitions in both programs. I wonder if his speaking up about it has magically improved Shaidorov's PCS between the short and the free.

 

[lariko]

I don't even know what you are talking about.
Rizzo's program is not a smasher, my, it's Coldplay, and he wasn't at his best, there was a stumble, there was that messed up triple axle, but I didn't see him falling, his 4 loop was very good and nothing to complain about at all, he certainly didn't have a splat fest skate but a very good, although not perfect one. This program doesn't make him shine, but you can well see the softness and fluency in his movements which stand out compared to many skaters and certainly in comparison to Shaidorov, who looks pretty stiff. Also in this program Shaidorov skates a lot on two feet, has no speed and there are a lot of standstill moments. He does some nice but hardly extraordinary movements to fill the gaps, but his skating skills are nothing to get excited about. His choreo is okay, but not more (just like Rizzo's, although in a different way).
PCS are not mainly about skating clean, they are mostly about skating skills, about controlling your blades, about having great gliding technique, speed, flow etc. etc. and there's nothing in Shaidorov's skating that makes me think that a PCS score of about 7.5 is underscored.
I also don't think at all that Rizzo is overscored with low 8s.

During the skate, Rizzo's 4Lo was counted as 3Lo and, therefore, his last 3A was marked as an X. Which means that for whatever reason, the quad didn't look rotated enough to the same judges that happily marked 4Lz from Shaidorov as +2.67 GoE (for comparison, Malinin's was marked as +2.79 GoE). Neither element was marked in gray as an element to undergo a review.

PCS consists of 3 marks, only one of them is for gliding. The other one is artistry that Shaidorov abundantly demonstrated and composition (which he also had since he had transitions and covered enough ice). With clean programs and technical content, he should have been higher than 5th, since everyone else ahead of him made serious in either short or free.

 

[Ares]

I don't even know what you are talking about.
Rizzo's program is not a smasher, my, it's Coldplay, and he wasn't at his best, there was a stumble, there was that messed up triple axle, but I didn't see him falling, his 4 loop was very good and nothing to complain about at all, he certainly didn't have a splat fest skate but a very good, although not perfect one. This program doesn't make him shine, but you can well see the softness and fluency in his movements which stand out compared to many skaters and certainly in comparison to Shaidorov, who looks pretty stiff. Also in this program Shaidorov skates a lot on two feet, has no speed and there are a lot of standstill moments. He does some nice but hardly extraordinary movements to fill the gaps, but his skating skills are nothing to get excited about. His choreo is okay, but not more (just like Rizzo's, although in a different way).
PCS are not mainly about skating clean, they are mostly about skating skills, about controlling your blades, about having great gliding technique, speed, flow etc. etc. and there's nothing in Shaidorov's skating that makes me think that a PCS score of about 7.5 is underscored.
I also don't think at all that Rizzo is overscored with low 8s.

I definitely think Rizzo was underscored/lowballed in PCS here.

 

[cailuj365]

During the skate, Rizzo's 4Lo was counted as 3Lo and, therefore, his last 3A was marked as an X. Which means that for whatever reason, the quad didn't look rotated enough to the same judges that happily marked 4Lz from Shaidorov as +2.67 GoE (for comparison, Malinin's was marked as +2.79 GoE). Neither element was marked in gray as an element to undergo a review.

Um, are you looking at the protocols? What shows up on the screen during the skate is not the final score. Rizzo was credited for a 4Lo with +2.71 GOE and received credit for a 3A (with negative GOE). Shaidarov's 4Lz GOE was also -0.33 and marked as a q.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2324/gpusa2023/FSKMSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

 

[lariko]

Um, are you looking at the protocols? What shows up on the screen during the skate is not the final score. Rizzo was credited for a 4Lo with +2.71 GOE and received credit for a 3A (with negative GOE). Shaidarov's 4Lz GOE was also -0.33 and marked as a q.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2324/gpusa2023/FSKMSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf

Yes, I know, that it was marked down like that, but there must have been a reason why visually, at the arena, the judges saw it differently. That's what I am trying to say. That Shaidorov's programs visually didn’t lack anything, when others had obvious mistakes, hence his placement this low goes against the idea that a program should be clean and well executed, even at the expense of technical difficulty, that seems to be where we are at nowadays. So my opinion stands, that Shaidorov was under-rewarded in this competition as reflected in protocols. Any further argument will be circular. This competition is done and next is coming.

 

[SkatersWaltz]

Seriously? Ouch. That's brutal. So the men are going to be very untrained in terms of performance experience by nationals. That does not bode well. To be honest, men's skating in Canada is even weaker than I thought, and I knew it was pretty weak right now. I'm not even sure who I'd pick if it was up to me. Really sad.

I think Canada needs to get a different head of high performance. Mike Slipchuck has been in the job for a long time now and he's got to do a better job than this. With the exception of Maddie Schizas, our women are really struggling as well. I know he can't jump for skaters but he can put them in better positions to succeed.

 

[discodisco]

I think Canada needs to get a different head of high performance. Mike Slipchuck has been in the job for a long time now and he's got to do a better job than this. With the exception of Maddie Schizas, our women are really struggling as well. I know he can't jump for skaters but he can put them in better positions to succeed.

Except that it was under Mike that the Canadian program really took off. There has been a ton of success under his direction, particularly in the women's skating area ironically. Before that we really didn't have anyone with a Chance of making a dent since the late '80s. A few bright spots here and there, but nothing that ever bore fruit.

At the same time, a high performance director can't make skaters better than they are. But I see with the Skate Canada leadership is that they are no longer eager to throw skaters into an event where they are guaranteed to take up the bottom spots. I understand that just certain extent you have to be willing to do that so that the skaters can work out the Kinks and then eventually, after a bit of experience, begin climbing the ladder. But skaters like Conrad have been given so many chances and haven't even come close to anything resembling success. Where is the limit?

 

[iluvtodd]

The Man in the American Flag Jacket is a great fan and supporter of Liam, yes.

His name is Andy. He & his wife live in Las Vegas, I think. I figured they would be @ Skate America, & they were. Nice that they were able to attend Skate Canada, too. I bet they'll be @ Nationals in Columbus, Ohio in January.

I feel bad for the Canadian guys. I hope they will have more success in their future competitions.

Mark G. had a wonderful free skate. So happy for Matteo! all of the Japanese guys! I hope Jun can put this comp behind him & come back strong - that was heartbreaking. I had no idea he left Brian Orser.

 

[4everchan]

During the skate, Rizzo's 4Lo was counted as 3Lo and, therefore, his last 3A was marked as an X.

Probably just a data input issue in the tech box.

Which means that for whatever reason, the quad didn't look rotated enough to the same judges that happily marked 4Lz from Shaidorov as +2.67 GoE (for comparison, Malinin's was marked as +2.79 GoE). Neither element was marked in gray as an element to undergo a review.

Not necessarily. As mentioned above, it may be a data input mistake.... If not, it could be that in real time, it's sometimes not that easy to spot a quad when it is rotated as fast... The loop jump also, per its nature, usually has quite a lot of prerotation so it's even harder to see with some skaters. I would think that Rizzo's jumping style, super tight rotation, not gigantic jump but very well aligned (usually) could have made it difficult. Obviously, upon review it was corrected and since it was, it means that they looked at it for sure !

Marked in gray is not for review. Gray marking is for neutral GOE. Green is positive. Red is negative. A jump on the quarter will be often marked Green at first. When the tech panel reviews it and labels it short, there is a GOE deduction. The BV is not affected but the GOE is.

PCS consists of 3 marks, only one of them is for gliding. The other one is artistry that Shaidorov abundantly demonstrated and composition (which he also had since he had transitions and covered enough ice). With clean programs and technical content, he should have been higher than 5th, since everyone else ahead of him made serious in either short or free.

Gliding is the basis though. I don't find performance convincing if there is no smooth skating... So skating skills do have an impact on performance and execution.

 

[lariko]

Probably just a data input issue in the tech box.

Not necessarily. As mentioned above, it may be a data input mistake.... If not, it could be that in real time, it's sometimes not that easy to spot a quad when it is rotated as fast... The loop jump also, per its nature, usually has quite a lot of prerotation so it's even harder to see with some skaters. I would think that Rizzo's jumping style, super tight rotation, not gigantic jump but very well aligned (usually) could have made it difficult. Obviously, upon review it was corrected and since it was, it means that they looked at it for sure !

Marked in gray is not for review. Gray marking is for neutral GOE. Green is positive. Red is negative. A jump on the quarter will be often marked Green at first. When the tech panel reviews it and labels it short, there is a GOE deduction. The BV is not affected but the GOE is.


Gliding is the basis though. I don't find performance convincing if there is no smooth skating... So skating skills do have an impact on performance and execution.

That's an awfully limiting view on figure skating, that gliding is the end all for performance as well. I thought the idea to split PCSs was to NOT to reward the same thing 5 or 3 times. I hope one day they discard PCS altogether.

 

[4everchan]

That's an awfully limiting view on figure skating, that gliding is the end all for performance as well. I thought the idea to split PCSs was to NOT to reward the same thing 5 or 3 times. I hope one day they discard PCS altogether.

That is not exactly what I was saying. Gliding is extremely important to convey musical phrasing, especially in a powerful piece like CB. Without it, the skater is quite limited in how they can connect with the music and transcend it. There are many ways of performing, that is true. The essence of figure skating to me and it seems to be quite similarly marked by judges requires good basic stroking. Almost 7.5 in PCs is already nothing to complain about.

 

[lariko]

That is not exactly what I was saying. Gliding is extremely important to convey musical phrasing, especially in a powerful piece like CB. Without it, the skater is quite limited in how they can connect with the music and transcend it. There are many ways of performing, that is true. The essence of figure skating to me and it seems to be quite similarly marked by judges requires good basic stroking. Almost 7.5 in PCs is already nothing to complain about.

And i think there is every reason to complain in this specific case. Plus, the only time I had seen a quad counted as triple was in Rus Junnior Nats before pandemic, and I watch quite a bit of FS. So, nope, 4Lo doesn't get called 3Lo left and right for no reason. And if Rizzo pre-rotated, he shouldn't have GoE like Malinin who rotates in the air and whose quads nobody takes for triples. Or, rather, Malinin should get 5+ GoE if Rizzo gets 3s for pre-ro.

 

[4everchan]

And i think there is every reason to complain in this specific case. Plus, the only time I had seen a quad counted as triple was in Rus Junnior Nats before pandemic, and I watch quite a bit of FS. So, nope, 4Lo doesn't get called 3Lo left and right for no reason. And if Rizzo pre-rotated, he shouldn't have GoE like Malinin who rotates in the air and whose quads nobody takes for triples. Or, rather, Malinin should get 5+ GoE if Rizzo gets 3s for pre-ro.

When has Malinin included a quad loop in competition? I am looking forward to see if he uses the same mechanics as pretty much everyone and that will include a bit of pre-rotation.

I repeat, I am pretty sure it was a data input mistake. I have seen plenty. It happens that jumps are mislabeled.

On the stream, the angle is a bit weird... On this fancam, there is no way any tech caller would mistake it for a 3loop.


So i am pretty sure it was just a mistake in the data input and not linked to the jump itself. Perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned any other option because really, the jump is a good quad loop.

 

[cailuj365]

There have been tons of data input mistakes on the spot in these last 2 GPs, but they later get corrected before the final score comes out. Malinin was inputted for 3Lz-2A and Lvl 2 flying sit spin for his Raspberry twist (lol) initially during his LP.