2024 Skate America: Men - Thoughts?

[cheerknithanson]

I struggle with the word " hate" or all its variants.

Saying that a skater lacks skating skills and that his LP isn't as exciting as last year's is far from "hate".

I get that some fans are very protective of their skaters, I am too.. but let's not get into this "you are a hater because you don't like my skater" kind of petty deal.

ETA : I see that poster above me was compelled to write a post similar to mine... Sorry for the redundant post.

I’m not being petty. I promise you that.

 

[DancingCactus]

The problem with "being nice about all skaters, let's not be mean" , apart from the fact that criticism is a healthy part of any discussion is that the judges are not fair. I still wouldn't like Ilia's or let's say the Russian girls' skating even if their components were judged more fairly. But it wouldn't bother me as much. It just galls that some truly exceptional skaters get PCS of 0.1 above someone who looks like bambi on ice sometimes or who seems like they fake an emotional connection to the music, just because they can rotate faster in the air. And if some fans claim they are the second coming of Christ, of course you want to push back. Or at least I do.

 

[Mathman]

I wholeheartedly disagree. Jumps and skating skills are mutually exclusive

My view of figure skating is that it's the whole ball of wax. Every aspect of a performance has an impact on every other. The IJS, being an attempt to impose numerical modeling on an endeavor that is at its heart non-mathematical, emphasises distinctions that, to me, seem somewhat artificial.

Ilia Malinin got higher PCS at last year's worlds than he did at this year's Skate America. Why? He skated better.

As for Ludmilla Neledina -- I was there! 2002 Skate America was the first major competition that I attended in person. Not only did Neledina break a ten-year ladies' 3A drought, but so did Yukari Nakano. Michelle Kwan (the USFSA made her an "offer she couldn't refuse" to come back and save Skate America after the scheduled headliners all withdrew) -- she wasn't perfect in the LP, but was able to hold off challenges by crowd-favorite teenagers Ann-Patrice McDonough and Jenny Kirk. Thanks for the walk down mempry lane.

 

[Mathman]

The problem with "being nice about all skaters, let's not be mean" ...

Still, I do apreciate posters who take the time to say, "I think Susiebelle's costume would work better with the theme of the music if it were blue instead of orange" rather than "burn that jack-o-lantern monstrosity immediately and fire your momma from being your seamstress."

 

[niks]

Adam can do "raspberry twist" (which is basically 540 jump), but he doesn't do it at competitions because he acknowledges it's Ilia's siganture move.

Actually the only good thing about the "raspberry twist" is that no one (at least that I know of ) is trying to copy it.
The move is not particularly difficult (for elite level of course) so it doesn't add much on the tech side, but it does take away a great deal on the artistic part because is hugely aesthetically unpleasant. It simply looks hideous.
So it can only be good news that nobody else is putting it on their programs, God forbid it becomes some sort of new trend

 

[Mathman]

I think we are being too serious about the raspberry twist. Skaters are always fooling around at the rink coming up with cool stuff of the "look what I can do!" variety. Ok, maybe it doesn't comtribute much of substance to the the choreographic or musical theme of the performance ... our maybe it does. Maybe the theme is, "Look what I can do, y'all!"

 

[Lamente Ariane]

I think we are being too serious about the raspberry twist. Skaters are always fooling around at the rink coming up with cool stuff of the "look what I can do!" variety. Ok, maybe it doesn't comtribute much of substance to the the choreographic or musical theme of the performance ... our maybe it does. Maybe the theme is, "Look what I can do, y'all!"

At the risk of inviting further controversy, I can’t help thinking of the old adage “just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.”

 

[DancingCactus]

I don't mind the Raspberry twist. I think it looks interesting, or maybe, as someone put "like he's being electrocuted mid-air", but it has to be properly integrated into the choreo. Looked OK to me in last year's free. This time it was kind of...there?

 

[niks]

I think we are being too serious about the raspberry twist. Skaters are always fooling around at the rink coming up with cool stuff of the "look what I can do!" variety. Ok, maybe it doesn't comtribute much of substance to the the choreographic or musical theme of the performance ... our maybe it does. Maybe the theme is, "Look what I can do, y'all!"

Oh, I agree it's a silly thing. But it can't be about showing off, because well... there is nothing to show
It can't be about "look what I can do" because I'm sure every skater from all 4 disciplines at GP level can easily do it too (again, hopefully they won't try to )
So I still can't really understand why you would go out of your way to "create" (even put your name to it!) and do such an ugly thing on purpose

I think the bottom line here is that I've just lessened my expectations Illia's artistic limitations are well-known and sadly, chances are quite low that they will significantly change. So let's just try and save whatever is possible. And the raspberry thing is very easy to fix! Just drop it. There, problem solved

 

[Mathman]

Oh, I agree it's a silly thing. But it can't be about showing off,, because well... there is nothing to show
It can't be about "look what I can do" because I'm sure every skater from all 4 disciplines at GP level can easily do it too...

I disagree with the bolded part. Consider the recently rejuvenated backflip. It is not hard to do a backflip (so they say ) Anyone who can do a backflip can do a backflip. including a million teenages trying to impress their friends. A backflip --OK, I for one am impressed -- does not require any particular blade-to-ice skills; it does not contribute to the choreographical vision (unless you are skating to Tosca and miming throwing yourself off the parapet to your death, in which case I'll give it 9.50 for Composition.)

 

[Mathman]

[Ilia's Raspberry Twist] looked OK to me in last year's free. This time it was kind of...there?

To me, that is an example of "whole program" scoring. At Worlds Ilia had the Midas touch -- everything he tossed into the pot turned to gold. Each element enhanced the program, and the performance soared.

At Skate America. technical mistakes weighed the program down and nothing was quite as magical -- a circumstance that was reflected in component scores as well as element scores, and also in audience reaction to particular embellishments such as the raspberry twist.

 

[4everchan]

It seems like skaters will develop their favourite moves... Aymoz does the no-hand cartwheel... Some, like Cha amaze us with classic and beautiful moves like the Ina Bauer (i don't think Ilia's is quite as nice btw and I am not sure why he added it in.. ) Shoma = cantilever... etc

In the end,whether it is a backflip, a raspberry twist, a special transition into a jumping pass, these trademarks become redundant and do not necessarily always work within the choreography. This is where I get bored.

In that sense, I remember Lubov and Dylan saying that yes, they did the cantilever into the death spiral one year but the following year, they didn't want to use it not to repeat themselves and created some other cool move. This is what would be awesome to see. It doesn't even have to be creating a new move (I suspect there are more possibilities in pairs/dance) than in singles. But it would be fun if choreographers and skaters varied their moves in the field. I understand this is another topic, but it does relate to the discussion of the last few pages considering the skaters involved and their competitors. Of course, I am dreaming... at this point, every single program is the same...
Jump jump jump jump, step seq, spin, jump jump jump choreo seq spin.

More or less.. So yeah... this is indeed why some fans are getting riled up when on top of that choreo seq means always the same tricks for a skater, no matter what is going on in the music.

 

[Mathman]

^ Michelle Kwan, when she was with Frank Carrol and Lori Nichol prided herself in introducing one new incidental move each season. One year is was the Charlotte (sparking a debate as to who re-invented it first, she or Sasha Cohen), Another was the high kick off the toepick in the 1999 SP.

I think it was one way to keep the skater from getting bored, as much as for the audience or judges.

 

[Kris135]

Ilia is learning to do just enough to win ugly, which he will need for his home Worlds.

This is biggest reason that Raf need to take over the actual day to day coaching of Ilia. As much I like his parents I think at this point he need Raf because his parents him get away with murder. Like at Nationals last season he told his father that was getting there on waking up at about 2-3pm on the afternoon of the men's short program. Ilia would not dream of saying anything close to that with Raf. He knows better. I really that someone needs to be honest with the men's world champion and I think Mom and Dad are not the ones to do that but Raf could and most likely would. He growing up and I honestly think he needs a stronger hand to keep him s bit more in line than what is happening at home now. He should win that gold medal in 2026 but he could sidetracked from that goal so easily and that who I want Raf he can show to get that medal that he really wants.

 

[Karoltyna]

Actually the only good thing about the "raspberry twist" is that no one (at least that I know of ) is trying to copy it.
The move is not particularly difficult (for elite level of course) so it doesn't add much on the tech side, but it does take away a great deal on the artistic part because is hugely aesthetically unpleasant. It simply looks hideous.
So it can only be good news that nobody else is putting it on their programs, God forbid it becomes some sort of new trend

They all know it and just don't copy the move

 

[Karoltyna]

I think the bottom line here is that I've just lessened my expectations Illia's artistic limitations are well-known and sadly, chances are quite low that they will significantly change. So let's just try and save whatever is possible. And the raspberry thing is very easy to fix! Just drop it. There, problem solved

I still believe in the boy, he can improve, maybe he'll never be truly on top, but he can develop and be quite pleasant to watch. I think he wouldn't get such harsh response if he wasn't overscored as he is now. It's just stupid, he would win the Worlds without overscoring - thanks to Yuma and Adam being very high class cacti (meanwhile Shoma ). And not winning SKAM would be actually good for FS because people tend to get bored if there is only one sure winner all the time.

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

Actually the only good thing about the "raspberry twist" is that no one (at least that I know of ) is trying to copy it.
The move is not particularly difficult (for elite level of course) so it doesn't add much on the tech side, but it does take away a great deal on the artistic part because is hugely aesthetically unpleasant. It simply looks hideous.
So it can only be good news that nobody else is putting it on their programs, God forbid it becomes some sort of new trend

Patrick Blackwell is doing it in both his SP and FS, including also backflip in the FS. Also training Quad Axel in a harness.

 

[ElSoteroLoco]

Ok, I'm goin to throw my thoughts into this, it may be a bit scattered as my head is constantly overthinking and working

I love Ilia and love both his SP and FS ... I don't mind so much of the negativity I see on here being thrown at him. I kinda think it's similar to what happened with Nathan when he started beating Yuzu. People kept saying things along the line "I dont FEEL anything from him" or like "All i see his jumps". I see the growth and I can tell he's really trying. What I did notice for the first time when he took the ice for the SP was he looked nervous... and the mistakes he did make he kept it together. I think he's got to shake off and out the jitters of coming in as the World Champ for the first time.

I also like Kevin... although tbh his dramatic and emotions cause me to , but after whatever he clearly went through, last season he deserved EVERY BIT of the dramatics and emotions during this event. I even got a little teary eyed which caught me by surprise. I truly hope that he continues on this wave and that its a new beginning for him.

Deniss, I really enjoy his SP and I respect that he continues striving for the quad, and not just giving up and focusing on a clean skate. Cause when he lands the quad his program goes UP another level.

Kao- I always enjoy him and his reactions in the K&C , especially for the SP when he almost got 100! Hopefully he gets there soon. I like his costumes and the music for both the SP and FS.

Nika- Another one I really like both his programs. But his SP music is just like Andrew Torgachev from last season (is he also using it again this season?) and Andrew absolutely KILLS it so comparing the two performances is really Apples and Oranges... Nothing more to add other than that really lol

 

[lariko]

This is biggest reason that Raf need to take over the actual day to day coaching of Ilia. As much I like his parents I think at this point he need Raf because his parents him get away with murder. Like at Nationals last season he told his father that was getting there on waking up at about 2-3pm on the afternoon of the men's short program. Ilia would not dream of saying anything close to that with Raf. He knows better. I really that someone needs to be honest with the men's world champion and I think Mom and Dad are not the ones to do that but Raf could and most likely would. He growing up and I honestly think he needs a stronger hand to keep him s bit more in line than what is happening at home now. He should win that gold medal in 2026 but he could sidetracked from that goal so easily and that who I want Raf he can show to get that medal that he really wants.

Gosh, you really have some sort of authoritarian tendencies when it comes to skaters. Force male skaters to ice dance. Cancel ice dance. Transfer Malinin forcefully to a coach so he doesn't dare to rest when he needs to, and God forbid messes up two jumping passes (in a discipline where mess reigns supreme).

Seriously, why not send him to Tutberidze then? there, he would not eat, sleep or listen to his body. Malinin has amazing talent, and one part of it is his psychological flexibility, focus and the team he trusts and that is extremely flexible in accommodating the hysterical demands of the cranky, never-happy fans. They literally bend over backwards to satisfy the Internet crybabies who fudge anything in order for Malinin not to win. If it's 8, no, it should be 5! If it's 3, it should be 0! If he is experimenting with music, chosing something that speaks to him, the very definition of growing artistically, nope, that's not what the old sour-pusses like, forget that he is a young man. Anything, to make sure someone else with lesser package wins.

He is already motivated to win. He is incredibly good at tracking his body's needs to avoid serious injury. I don’t know if anyone heard what he said when he was stepping off the ice to his Dad. He said, quad was impossible. (I assume lutz). The fact that he was able to just add element on the fly is also great.

I mean, I am used to people whining about his PCSs, but whining about what he actually excellent at and wishing a even heavier pressure on someone who is that well-adjusted and capable of being a champion is simply cruel. If we want happy, healthy skaters, it applies to Malinin as well.

 

[Mathman]

Don’t worry, Ilia’s fine. His jumps are fine. He won’t be stupendous and colossal every time out. This time he was only Clark Kent. But he will always have a slugger’s chance to win any event he enters, as happened here.

His non-jump elements are fine. His program components are fine. Maybe not rapturously fine, but it’s an athletic competition that we are looking for here, not a religious experience.