2025-26 Channel One Cup

[Mathematician]

Looking forward to a rematch next year.

I really can't wait for next season. The men especially. Most fun/interesting single league in the world right now is Russian men IMO.

 

[yume]

Master-post on the Lutz. Even with statistics on juniors vs seniors:

Post in thread 'Relative difficulty of types of jumps: triples versus quads'

Feb 9, 2025

I'm surprised 3Lo was the first triple.

I wonder if the difficulty feels different for men versus women. I can only comment on women since thats what I watch. I will do so now.

For triples we have the following order:

3T
3S
3Lo
3F
3Lz

3Lz seems to be the only one that consistently trips up the top girls, even the ones who jump quads.

The only girl I can find who clearly prefers the Lutz to the flip is Sadkova, see the following:

You can also decide what the following means to you in regards to Agaeva...

• Mathematician

• 
• 
• 

And, Sadkova's Lutz has been butchered since then more than anything else. Definitely a wrap.

This post reminds me how it's useless to debate with you and @AlexBreeze cuz you two just love to pull up with some stats.

 

[Mathematician]

This post reminds me how it's useless to debate with you and @AlexBreeze cuz you two just love to pull up with some stats.

How I been studying to get on Alex & Bean's level:

 

[Skating91]

I only watched Kamila, but it was ordinary although she has some good individual element. Terrible choreography. Everything was a bit too messy, too hurried, trying to do too much. And her skating skills which were already regressing in that 2023/24 season, have worsened. With her height and size it's like she has trouble controlling her body at times. It's legs and arms going everywhere.

I think they really need to simplify her program and get back to basics like Liu and Glenn have had success doing they have very simple choreography, just aim to complete a clean simple program without interruptions, and the Japanese kind of ignore the use of their upper body altogether and just aim for speed. Is it worth overcomplicating a program to get 36 PCS when you can get 32-33 skating something simple with wooden choreography?

Kamila is without rival in the use of her upper body (or entire body), her flexibility, but nothing about the program works at the moment. Even if it were clean it's not something I would rewatch.

 

[Mathematician]

I only watched Kamila, but it was ordinary although she has some good individual element. Terrible choreography. Everything was a bit too messy, too hurried, trying to do too much. And her skating skills which were already regressing in that 2023/24 season, have worsened. With her height and size it's like she has trouble controlling her body at times. It's legs and arms going everywhere.

I think they really need to simplify her program and get back to basics like Liu and Glenn have had success doing they have very simple choreography, just aim to complete a clean simple program without interruptions, and the Japanese kind of ignore the use of their upper body altogether and just aim for speed. Is it worth overcomplicating a program to get 36 PCS when you can get 32-33 skating something simple with wooden choreography?

Kamila is without rival in the use of her upper body (or entire body), her flexibility, but nothing about the program works at the moment. Even if it were clean it's not something I would rewatch.

That whole program was clearly drafted up in a few days. I wouldn't take much from this performance at all. They might not even keep it for next season.

BTW, don't you think it's kind of disgusting they gave her over 35 PCS for that? If they score like this in real season, then...

Even YouTube comments are overwhelmingly against Kamila's program. I think they'll change it.

I'd recommend re-watching Semenenko FS, he did 5 quads and 2 3As. Maybe Gummenik too his Lutz looked like it could have pushed 5 revolutions (he popped one Salchow unfortunately, otherwise it probably would've been one of the best men's FS performances ever). Zakharova was clean with a quad maybe her as well though we know the Moulin Rouge program isn't super sophisticated. Mura had a clean back-loaded SP but then tripped in the StSq... I can't remember if there was anything else of interest (probably not).

 

[niks]

So far not too good points-wise because of UR and generally not too good landings. But it's obvious that Zhenya has stamina and everything to compete with 5 quads (actually he once went for six ones).

A bit of weird he's preparing 4Lz for every event but ends up not including it.

Does Zhenya really, really needs these 5 quads to stay competitive? Isn't there any other way?

I caught up a bit with the Men side of the competition and Zhenya's FS was, well, not inspiring to put it that way. Points-wise as you said, it was not worth it, the score was very low for such a jumping content. Yes, he can improve the jumps so he gets the TES he is going after, and he can also improve his fitness so he doesn't die after the jumps as it happened here. But I just don't see how he can possibly save any sort of performance with the 5 quads.

It already happened last season when he and Mark went for the quad race and their performances suffered enormously (I was glad to see they stopped that and so their programs were more balanced and their overall skates much better). And it also happened to Petr this season, who has regressed miles in any artistic and performance measure, and even in speed and skating skills.

So if this 5 quads by default quest is confirmed, it is bad news because Zhenya is actually a good performer. And he has improved so much over the years! It's always very sad when you lose an artistic / performance skater to the quad madness

Well, what are you gonna do? maybe if the scoring goes back to normal next season, he will reconsider....

 

[AlexBreeze]

Does Zhenya really, really needs these 5 quads to stay competitive? Isn't there any other way?

He can improve his BV by more difficult combos and one more combo spin. But generally, yes, he does. I think it's possible to build a good program around 5 quads. But I don't think two 3As are necessary after 5 quads.

 

[taengstache]

I think it was a given that moscow would win just based on their roster. I do hope for next year, they go back to the format from last year where they have the captains draft the skaters. It'll even out the teams more fairly imo.

Also, it's supposed to be fun for the skaters and the fans but some fans take it too seriously. Complaining about mistakes and points lol I fear had the red team lost, their fans would've made a whole presentation on how it was rigged and why they should've won XD

 

[Mathematician]

He can improve his BV by more difficult combos and one more combo spin. But generally, yes, he does. I think it's possible to build a good program around 5 quads. But I don't think two 3As are necessary after 5 quads.

I don't know. He scored 296 at Nats with just 4 quads and some mistakes. His SP only had 4T and 4S. Mightn't it be worth it to just add the Loop into the SP over the Toe Loop and then maybe replace the solo 4S with a flip if it's stable enough instead of pushing 5 quads in total? Then just upgrade his other BV a little as you suggest? It would easily push him over 300 clean. He almost beat Petr already. He is a pretty clear 2nd after Petr right now and the gap is not big. I mean it all depends on how much form he can put on by next season. I think he can do 5 quads in theory but why do you think it's "necessary" to stay competitive if he's already doing so well? We almost never see 300s at Nats. In fact, I think this was the first time? Has anyone else ever scored 300 at Nats except Petr?

Also, what's wrong with the 3As? They seem very consistent for him. His 3As are some of the best we have.

 

[AlexBreeze]

He almost beat Petr already.

Petr wasn't clean at Nats. Zhenya did literally everything he could. There were no "some mistakes". He still lost with a gap. If Mark skated clean, Zhenya would lose to him, too. In RGPF, he nearly lost to Ugozhaev.

Also, what's wrong with the 3As?

Because the second one isn't necessary scoring-wise. He'll have same BV repeating 3T instead.

 

[Mathematician]

Petr wasn't clean at Nats. Zhenya did literally everything he could. There were no "some mistakes". He still lost with a gap. If Mark skated clean, Zhenya would lose to him, too. In RGPF, he nearly lost to Ugozhaev.


Because the second one isn't necessary scoring-wise. He'll have same BV repeating 3T instead.

But still at face value Mark has only passed 296 once in his career. They have the same FS BV and the SP gap is 1 point (same with Vlad). So, just adding a 4Lo there would compensate, though I don't see Mark as a huge risk anyways. Ugozhaev, Petr and Vlad are BV risks. Frankly, I think with the current scoring anyone will require Petr to make a mistake anyways. However, the current gap between Semenenko and Vlad/Ugo is still less than 10 points total assuming the latter are perfect. Would adding the Lo and F, making minor adjustments to other combos and focusing on non-jumping elements/PCS result in far better consistency and holistic skating generally? I think this would all more than account for the BV gap. I mean, it would definitely leave Mark behind, and at worst just make him generally equal with the other 2. Forcing an extra quad seems cheap and unreliable. I would be happy if be succeeds but I would only support this if he's very confident.

 

[AlexBreeze]

But still at face value Mark has only passed 296 once in his career.

I don't think we should compare scores of different events.

If Mark had a better SP at Nats he would be above. He gets higher PCS and his BV is clearly higher. I don't think Zhenya wants just to rely on mistakes from other skaters.

So, just adding a 4Lo there would compensate

4Lo in a SP is a huge risk if you aren't Makar Ignatov. I think he focuses on restoring 4F.

 

[niks]

I think it's possible to build a good program around 5 quads

Maybe, but such a thing is yet to be seen And honestly, I think its likelihood is around the same level as purple unicors'

Petr wasn't clean at Nats. Zhenya did literally everything he could. There were no "some mistakes". He still lost with a gap.

But that wasn't because of jumps or BV, but due to Petr's massive overscoring. Petr was overscored all season for the sake of the Olympics, and especially at Nats, he really needed to win and for a big margin, so there was indeed not much to be done there, quads or no quads. After the Olympics, for what I saw, his scores were brought down but also his skates were worse (besides, they couldn't just discount 20 or 30 points in a couple of weeks), and his PCS are still flying high in the sky, so the situation is not fully clear.

I understand what Zhenya tried to do, send a message for next season that he is not going down without a fight to the bitter end, but there are only 2 possible scenarios here. Either the scoring policy is brought back to the pre-Olympics situation, and then it is not fully clear to me that Zhenya (and others) does need to throw everything out of the window and burn it for the sake of a 5-quad TES, or the "chosen one" policy remains in place. And if so, 5 quads will not save Zhenya (nor others). As Illia powerfully demonstrated at the Olympics, chosen ones can only be defeated by themselves. So in any case, it's a shame he sacrifies his performances for (as far as I can see) not much.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Maybe, but such a thing is yet to be seen And honestly, I think its likelihood is around the same level as purple unicors'

If you have performance with four quads, then another one doesn't bury it. But for this, the program pattern must be built around the quads. If your program was choreographed for a different layout, you'll have to redo everything, and your performance will suffer. I remember when Zhenya was just starting to try three quads, and there was nothing left of the program.

But that wasn't because of jumps or BV, but due to Petr's massive overscoring.

Petr was getting much more points before this season as well. He didn't win before because he had bad skates at Nats. And he's not the only competitor for Zhenya. I've mentioned at least two other skaters. I don't think Zhenya wants to perform with BV much less than everyone else and hope for a cacti fest.

But I think there is no need to go out with 5 quads at all competitions. At RGPF, he changed his content after the warm-up.

I understand what Zhenya tried to do, send a message for next season that he is not going down without a fight to the bitter end

Zhenya started attempting 5 quads way before this event. This layout is still not ready due to various problems, including a knee injury at the beginning of the season.

 

[Mathematician]

If Mark had a better SP at Nats he would be above. He gets higher PCS and his BV is clearly higher. I don't think Zhenya wants just to rely on mistakes from other skaters.


4Lo in a SP is a huge risk if you aren't Makar Ignatov. I think he focuses on restoring 4F.

Mark doesn't really get more PCS. They both skated clean FS at Nats and Semenenko scored higher. Smenenko's best SP this season was 44.44 and Mark's was 44.04. I don't think slightly cleaner Lutz will give him +1. Semenenko deserved the higher PCS this season across both programs and he got it. The BV gap is 4 across both programs. That would easily be compensated for by just replacing quads with higher value ones instead of forcing in an entire new one. If Lo is a risk in SP then he can do the 4F. But, with 5 quads he is going to be losing a lot on stamina anyways, small imperfections in execution or weak steps, if he isn't in perfect shape. Nevermind the risk of just flopping. Also, I'm not sure why not look at results across an entire career. It definitely matters. If Mark is inconsistent and only has 4BV on a consistent Semenenko, then Semenenko has no reason to force an entire extra quad which could ruin his event, instead of just upgrading his current, keeping his PCS high and perfecting his spins/combos. If he does this Mark simply wont be close. Mark would need a miracle skate and Semenenko would need to bomb which would make him lose regardless. I can't imagine forcing a quad won't dump his PCS and other marks. I think the BV would actually be higher total with first option plus other bonuses.

 

[lariko]

I absolutely loved this competition, far more than I thought I would. Skill testing stuff was epic, particularly from Mironova/Ustenko and Chikmareva/Yanchenkov. The way Team Moscow used Mozalev was just crafty, and when he landed that 4F, it made my day. Fedorov got spotlight too, sealing the deal twice, heh. I am not huge on show programs, but I'll watch the mega-gala competition when it happens to have the season closure.

 

[Mathematician]

I am not huge on show programs, but I'll watch the mega-gala competition when it happens to have the season closure.

I hope we get a thread on this event soon

 

[lariko]

I hope we get a thread on this event soon

Looks like it's this weekend, yay!