2025 World Championships Men's Free Skate | Page 60 | Golden Skate

2025 World Championships Men's Free Skate

I thought Yuma's SP was a huge step in the right direction for bringing in the audience. The new music edit helped a lot to keep the energy up, and the crowd was loving it. He mostly uses his gorgeous skating and movements do the work and speak for him rather than trying to directly sell it to the audience. Interestingly, I thought he had a bit more direct audience engagement with his 2022 Olympics programs than in recent years.

Musically, I thought emo Vampire was much more Ilia in terms of personality and high drama than Succession, but the sequence of elements was poorly done, nearly all the jumps occurring right after the other. This year, he only had one spin in between the jumps, whereas in Succession, he had a spin, step sequence, and the choreo sequence in between the jump elements. He needs to break it up more. This is a guy who can do a 4T+4A and 4T+(3A)x6 sequence. There's no reason he should be putting his foot down on that last triple axel. (I kid - obviously, it's ridiculously hard.) He did well to keep on his feet by the end of the program so by the time he hit the backflip at the climax of the music, the audience was with him again.
 
Ilia just thanked himself for winning skater of the year award (weirdly, they didn’t display all the nominees- I’m assuming he wasn’t the only one nominated). It actually was adorable- at least to me.
He's taking a page out of Mirra Andreeva's book - Russian tennis phenom who has been thanking herself during all her winner speeches this year, lol.
 
I do think Mikhail doing really well before Yuma made Yuma second guess things a bit. And yes, Yuma did well in the SP after Ilia, but Ilia is not just anyone- he's the quad god. Yuma seems mentally prepared to do really well in the SP and still coming second to Ilia (lower base value, and it was quite close too) but he seems to be not prepared to Mikhail doing really well, and that leads to Yuma overthinking and making more mistakes because he's also worried about Japan's Olympic spots.

I think this is such a turbulent season for Yuma. It's the first time he's representing Japan as its undisputable #1, and he also got new programs (Believer and RIYBE were 2 season programs) and experimented with his layout (the 4Lz attempt, the 4F not being that steady, the 4S and his other jumps also being inconsistent). He's also experienced placing lower to non-Ilia skaters (Mikhail and Junhwan). But in a way it's also great that he's getting all his mental yips out now and not during the Olympic season.

I think it would do Yuma good to lock down a competitive jump layout early next season and just focus on what he needs to do to maximize his scores. I think there are alternatives for him to go as a performer rather than this mature artist Lori is insisting him to be with her programs. Yuma's still pretty young, and he's actually quite bold and hungry for wins. Yes, his skating skills is exceptional, but it doesn't mean he has the maturity to perform and bring out the subtle nuances of his music. I hope his team goes for "easier" music next season- great melody, nice rise and falls, great musical climaxes can go a long way. Leave the more mature and subtle programs to when he hits 25-27 years old.
 
Or an eager, bouncy kung fu panda LOL. As an aside, I had never seen his exhibition program of that before so that made me laugh a lot. Mikhail has a more approachable down to earth charm than Ilia for me. BTW, I think Yuma can still draw in an audience even if he seems "insular" most of the time. I appreciate him for just being himself and I'm so glad he works with super gifted choreographers and Carolina - they have helped him improve on his natural talent so much!
LOL! Exactly! Joyful Kung Fu Panda = Mikhail Shaidorov! He just looked like he was having a blast in his fp, like it was an exhibition performance. Mikhail was so comfortable in his fp that, at one point, he began gesturing to someone in the audience. 🕺🏻😄

For sure, Yuma has been helped by Carolina and his choreographers. He's skating to better music, too. I didn't say Yuma 'can't draw in an audience.' I said that Yuma's skating is mesmerizing, but at the same time, Yuma does not project well to the audience. He skates with his head down a lot. He does not express his personality very well when he skates, as opposed to effervescent Mikhail S, and dramatic, creative, emotional Kevin Aymoz, who are both able to project outward. Now sometimes Mikhail has been less confident and inner focused on getting the jumps done, and he has gone through some inconsistencies in the past. But with his recent successes, Mikhail's confidence has skyrocketed and he seems to skate with carefree consistency, unusual for a multiple quad athlete.

In regard to Yuma, audiences are certainly captivated by his smooth, elegant movement quality, and by his extraordinary, gorgeous jump technique (and deep knee bend). Yet, this season, for some reason, Yuma has uncharacteristically made numerous mistakes, usually in his free programs. Hopefully, these problems are solvable in the realm of mental composure challenges that are not physical-injury related. Again, having gorgeous jumps and smooth, mesmerizing movement qualities does NOT mean Yuma projects well or expresses his personality well to the audience. At this stage of his career, he doesn't. Neither did Shoma Uno. Shoma moved like butter but he did not project or express his emotions well, despite expressing the music fairly well through his rare movement quality.
 
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I read an interview about how after the SP start order was determined, Yuma mentally prepared for Ilia delivering a clean SP with raucous applause, so he already envisioned that scenario and was able to deliver what he did for the SP. For the free skate, perhaps Misha's great performance put extra pressure on him, but in reality, Yuma has struggled with performing that free skate all season. Finlandia, University Games, and Asian Games were all not good. Even GPF wasn't great even though he technically won that portion over Ilia as it was less about Yuma's performance and more about Ilia getting hit with the rotation calls.

Misha is really cultivating the happy-go-lucky personality on and off the ice, which is great, because it feels authentic to who he is and lets him relax. It's impossible not to like or be endeared by that. His programs last year (Carmina Burana, Matrix) were so heavy-handed, in comparison. It's also easy to make the FS look like an exhibition when the technique is that solid. He doesn't have to worry about the jumps at all, and he can let the growing confidence and muscle memory just do his jumps for him, and start to perform, which is what Ilia has done.
 
I read an interview about how after the SP start order was determined, Yuma mentally prepared for Ilia delivering a clean SP with raucous applause, so he already envisioned that scenario and was able to deliver what he did for the SP. For the free skate, perhaps Misha's great performance put extra pressure on him, but in reality, Yuma has struggled with performing that free skate all season.
Visualization do matter in sports and I think this is a good example of it. The thing about winning so many silver medals (this coming from a Shoma fan lol) is that on paper, it seems that there is only one big hurdle left, and Yuma will win the gold. In Yuma's position, that big hurdle is Ilia. So I can see Yuma having tunnel vision on what Ilia does (especially because Adam hasn't been a credible threat this season) and is caught off guard by Mikhail being so solid.

I just don't think Yuma has enough confidence in his jumping layout for the FS this season and it shows. And when things go wrong he doesn't have enough base value to feel secure- his strength is in the GOE, not the BV. And while he's a maestro of SS, he doesn't have as much advantage on PCS on Ilia- which makes sense to me because Ilia makes up in PR while Yuma pales in comparison (especially when he makes mistakes).

Edited to add: it's why I think it would benefit Yuma to decide on a jump layout for next season and stick with it. Either commit to the 4F or bring back the 4Lo or get the 4Lz in a shape where he can do it in competition. The longer he takes to decide, the more doubts he possibly will have and it can impact his bread and butter jumps which is non-negotiables to be inconsistent in his position.
 
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I read an interview about how after the SP start order was determined, Yuma mentally prepared for Ilia delivering a clean SP with raucous applause, so he already envisioned that scenario and was able to deliver what he did for the SP. For the free skate, perhaps Misha's great performance put extra pressure on him, but in reality, Yuma has struggled with performing that free skate all season. Finlandia, University Games, and Asian Games were all not good. Even GPF wasn't great even though he technically won that portion over Ilia as it was less about Yuma's performance and more about Ilia getting hit with the rotation calls.

Misha is really cultivating the happy-go-lucky personality on and off the ice, which is great, because it feels authentic to who he is and lets him relax. It's impossible not to like or be endeared by that. His programs last year (Carmina Burana, Matrix) were so heavy-handed, in comparison. It's also easy to make the FS look like an exhibition when the technique is that solid. He doesn't have to worry about the jumps at all, and he can let the growing confidence and muscle memory just do his jumps for him, and start to perform, which is what Ilia has done.
I agree. I actually have always enjoyed Mikhail's skating. In juniors, Mikhail stood out to me with his exceptional tech prowess. I have really liked watching Mikhail skate. I enjoyed his Matrix program and costume. Perhaps there was something missing a bit. In any case, this season Mikhail seems to be immensely enjoying his programs by Ivan Righini, who sits with him and coach, Urmanov, in the kiss 'n cry. 😊
 
Wow, Ilia is a freak, but I say that out of total admiration and awe. I will never get over the quad axel. He threw away a whole combination and still scored 318+ and won by 30+ points. What do you even say. Even if they gave him 8's in PCS, he'd be 20 points ahead.

Even more reasons to judge him properly. If he can win just by massive tech, then what's the point in overscoring him in pcs so much? Do judges really have that little faith in him? Are they afraid that if they don't help him in pcs, he might not win? I hate this mindset so much - that judging him fairly wouldn't change podium standings anyway and therefore it's okay that he is given points he didn't earn.

And there is another layer to that - we cannot underestimate the mental toll it has on other skaters. Knowing that there is roughly 30 points between their pb and Ilia's pb. It's a gap almost impossible to close. But give him ss in 8s and overall pcs ~80 and that gap is no longer so overwhelming. Count his underrotations (that he often gets away with) and it's even smaller. Imagine competing with him: you no longer have to fight an impossible fight, you just have to push yourself very hard to compete with very talented jumper. You might not succeed, but you at least have a chance of succeeding. It's very different starting point - one that can motivate you to work harder, instead of abandoning all hope.

Some people are saying he is unbeatable, but he is very clearly not. He is just being judged like he is the next Patrick Chan and it needs to stop, if we want to keep any integrity of the sport. (But obviously it won't stop. And I'm very salty about this, as you can probably tell.)





Guys, another topic: how do we feel about the new entrance? I personaly think it looks very awkward and would hapilly get rid of those gates and carpets and whatnot. The poor skaters are waving to quiet and indifferent audience when they finally reach the ice. Not to mention they truly look like they are running late for something.
 
Even more reasons to judge him properly. If he can win just by massive tech, then what's the point in overscoring him in pcs so much? Do judges really have that little faith in him? Are they afraid that if they don't help him in pcs, he might not win? I hate this mindset so much - that judging him fairly wouldn't change podium standings anyway and therefore it's okay that he is given points he didn't earn.

And there is another layer to that - we cannot underestimate the mental toll it has on other skaters. Knowing that there is roughly 30 points between their pb and Ilia's pb. It's a gap almost impossible to close. But give him ss in 8s and overall pcs ~80 and that gap is no longer so overwhelming. Count his underrotations (that he often gets away with) and it's even smaller. Imagine competing with him: you no longer have to fight an impossible fight, you just have to push yourself very hard to compete with very talented jumper. You might not succeed, but you at least have a chance of succeeding. It's very different starting point - one that can motivate you to work harder, instead of abandoning all hope.

Some people are saying he is unbeatable, but he is very clearly not. He is just being judged like he is the next Patrick Chan and it needs to stop, if we want to keep any integrity of the sport. (But obviously it won't stop. And I'm very salty about this, as you can probably tell.)

The PCS in the FS should have been lower for sure, but I actually would have given him high 8s (like 87) and he got a 91, so it's not like his total score really was that far off. You might disagree with that, but it's not like he's Egadze. I think he also deserved his PCS in the SP.

He's truly not unbeatable, and if his competitors are thinking that, they need to work on changing their mentality. Yuma said something after the SP about how he feels that Ilia is getting close to invincible, and I remember thinking, "That's your takeaway after being only 3 points away with much lower tech content?" Ilia's ceiling is extremely high, but he doesn't always hit that ceiling. He has already been beaten twice in the free skate this year. Yuma could have put real pressure on Ilia for the free skate this time, but it didn't work out. However, Yuma has also tanked the FS several times this year whether Ilia was there or not, which @rabidline pointed out may be due to not feeling comfortable with his current layout, and his own money-maker 4S became less reliable too. I've read recent interviews with Carolina Kostner, who has said that Yuma just needs to focus on himself and not worry about Ilia, and I agree that this is exactly what Yuma should do.

I think Misha will put more pressure on Ilia next year, because he has more consistency with harder jumps, and if he upgrades his TES even more, he will be even closer. Why does Misha not do a solo 3A in the FS, by the way? It's clearly a great jump for him. Yuma and Adam will also continue to put pressure on Ilia if/when they put two clean performances together, and they both have the PCS advantage over Misha.

So no, I don't think his competitors have abandoned all hope, PCS inflation or not. No one is handing the OGM over now. Ilia still has to skate at the Olympics and earn it. And yes, look what happened to Patrick Chan or Kurt Browning. Ten months is a long time. We still have to go through all of next season. He has to seriously protect himself from injury, and he also has never experienced Olympic pressure before.
 
Guys, another topic: how do we feel about the new entrance? I personaly think it looks very awkward and would hapilly get rid of those gates and carpets and whatnot. The poor skaters are waving to quiet and indifferent audience when they finally reach the ice. Not to mention they truly look like they are running late for something.

I LOVE the new entrances!! I think they're so fun, and not enough skaters were taking advantage of their moment. I agree that the running out looks a bit awkward, and my friend and I even said, "Stop running! Just walk normally!" Then on cue, Ilia comes strutting out like he's auditioning for America's Next Top Model, and we burst out laughing. :LOL: The skaters just need to adjust that the applause is going to come with the initial walk-out, not on the ice anymore.
 
In regard to Yuma, audiences are certainly captivated by his smooth, elegant movement quality, and by his extraordinary, gorgeous jump technique (and deep knee bend). Yet, this season, for some reason, Yuma has uncharacteristically made numerous mistakes, usually in his free programs. Hopefully, these problems are solvable in the realm of mental composure challenges that are not physical-injury related. Again, having gorgeous jumps and smooth, mesmerizing movement qualities does NOT mean Yuma projects well or expresses his personality well to the audience. At this stage of his career, he doesn't. Neither did Shoma Uno. Shoma moved like butter but he did not project or express his emotions well, despite expressing the music fairly well through his rare movement quality.
This comparison with Shoma is something I think about as well. I think Yuma's programs this season felt a bit minimalist and detached to him as a person, which is more similar to Shoma's programs. Shoma's style is more about expressing the music with his movements and skating, but he doesn't give anything re: his personality, his emotions about the program, or a specific story or character he wants to tell. I think that style worked for Shoma but is not well-suited for every skater. Just because Yuma is also tiny, has beautiful and smooth skating skills and deep knee bend, doesn't mean he should be doing Shoma-style programs at this point of his career. He's young, he's hungry, he wants to win, he enjoys giving the crowd a show and he's also as adorable as a button. I think there is a way to give him programs that help him compete but also is closer to his temperament? It's what I think about when I wrote about hoping he and his team will choose "easier" music.
 
He's truly not unbeatable, and if his competitors are thinking that, they need to work on changing their mentality. Yuma said something after the SP about how he feels that Ilia is getting close to invincible, and I remember thinking, "That's your takeaway after being only 3 points away with much lower tech content?" Ilia's ceiling is extremely high, but he doesn't always hit that ceiling. He has already been beaten twice in the free skate this year. Yuma could have put real pressure on Ilia for the free skate this time, but it didn't work out. However, Yuma has also tanked the FS several times this year whether Ilia was there or not, which @rabidline pointed out may be due to not feeling comfortable with his current layout, and his own money-maker 4S became less reliable too. I've read recent interviews with Carolina Kostner, who has said that Yuma just needs to focus on himself and not worry about Ilia, and I agree that this is exactly what Yuma should do.
That interview with Carolina also makes me think whether she's the right messenger to deliver her message (which I agree with) to Yuma. Don't get me wrong, Carolina is a decorated top skater with her achievements, but her coaching experience before Yuma is helping Lori Nichol out with choreography, and she didn't experience any pressure or burden of having to maintain consistency of multiple quads in order to compete with other skaters who are also maintaining consistency of multiple quads. I think that position can dilute her message before Yuma a bit, because what does she know about focusing on oneself while the rival is attempting to land 6 different types of quads in every FS? And another rival is landing quads and including backflips in his program? And another rival is landing quads as the second jump of his combination?

I think this is also where Yuma may be vulnerable, because he can be taking on the burden of responsibility of his jumps alone. Yes, Yuma has his father, but the father-son relationship may impact that as well- can Yuma unload on his dad? Ilia has Raf, Mikhail has Urmanov. People who are not their family, who they can talk to about their jumps when it's not firing. But of course this isn't the only arrangement that works for the skater, I think Adam doesn't have that person in his team (unless it's Benoit?? which is also possible since he's a former competitor).
 
I LOVE the new entrances!! I think they're so fun, and not enough skaters were taking advantage of their moment. I agree that the running out looks a bit awkward, and my friend and I even said, "Stop running! Just walk normally!" Then on cue, Ilia comes strutting out like he's auditioning for America's Next Top Model, and we burst out laughing. :LOL: The skaters just need to adjust that the applause is going to come with the initial walk-out, not on the ice anymore.
Me, too! I really like the new entrance thing. I think it makes it special for the individual athlete, rather than all of them lining up on ice and being introduced as part of a group. I like things in our sport that shift focus to the athletes. We want stars... well, treat them like stars.

They've even started doing The Entrance at big swimming and track competitions (my sports as a kid, and my sporting side-interests as an adult).
And yep, Ilia was definitely using his entrance to signal confidence and swagger. Others used it to signal eagerness. Alysa Liu used it to signal joy and "what the hell."
 
I LOVE the new entrances!! I think they're so fun, and not enough skaters were taking advantage of their moment. I agree that the running out looks a bit awkward, and my friend and I even said, "Stop running! Just walk normally!" Then on cue, Ilia comes strutting out like he's auditioning for America's Next Top Model, and we burst out laughing. :LOL: The skaters just need to adjust that the applause is going to come with the initial walk-out, not on the ice anymore.
It is fun and I think some skaters just need to get used to it. It would be fun if they do it like Tennis, where skaters can pick what song they want to walk (skate) out to, like some choose their favorite songs but there are also players who choose memetic songs or badass songs.
 
That interview with Carolina also makes me think whether she's the right messenger to deliver her message (which I agree with) to Yuma. Don't get me wrong, Carolina is a decorated top skater with her achievements, but her coaching experience before Yuma is helping Lori Nichol out with choreography, and she didn't experience any pressure or burden of having to maintain consistency of multiple quads in order to compete with other skaters who are also maintaining consistency of multiple quads. I think that position can dilute her message before Yuma a bit, because what does she know about focusing on oneself while the rival is attempting to land 6 different types of quads in every FS? And another rival is landing quads and including backflips in his program? And another rival is landing quads as the second jump of his combination?

I think this is also where Yuma may be vulnerable, because he can be taking on the burden of responsibility of his jumps alone. Yes, Yuma has his father, but the father-son relationship may impact that as well- can Yuma unload on his dad? Ilia has Raf, Mikhail has Urmanov. People who are not their family, who they can talk to about their jumps when it's not firing. But of course this isn't the only arrangement that works for the skater, I think Adam doesn't have that person in his team (unless it's Benoit?? which is also possible since he's a former competitor).
This is way too psychologically in depth for me. Here's a simpler view.

Yuma is a fantastic skater. Four years ago, his jump arsenal and second mark would be plenty good enough to win world titles in a romp. Now, it's not. The sport has progressed, his base value hasn't kept pace. But he's not an afterthought by any means. He's an Olympic medalist and has multiple World medals. He's had a stellar career so far.

If his eye is on big titles, and I think that SHOULD be the case, then he has to find a way to get more points. It's a math problem, and the most straightforward solution includes jump upgrades. He's working on them. Or, he can take the Jason Brown route - perfecting the things he can do really well, skating for himself, and amassing a legion of loyal fans. He might not win big titles, but there is a place in our sport for this approach.

The thing about Yuma that none of us should be happy about is the immense amount of pressure he skates under. I don't think he was concerned with a bronze medal when he held up three fingers with questioning eyes in the kiss and cry after his FS. I think he was concerned about whether he had skated well enough to earn three spots for Japan at the Olympics. That broke my heart. I hate spot drama.
 
If his eye is on big titles, and I think that SHOULD be the case, then he has to find a way to get more points. It's a math problem, and the most straightforward solution includes jump upgrades. He's working on them. Or, he can take the Jason Brown route - perfecting the things he can do really well, skating for himself, and amassing a legion of loyal fans. He might not win big titles, but there is a place in our sport for this approach.

The thing about Yuma that none of us should be happy about is the immense amount of pressure he skates under. I don't think he was concerned with a bronze medal when he held up three fingers with questioning eyes in the kiss and cry after his FS. I think he was concerned about whether he had skated well enough to earn three spots for Japan at the Olympics. That broke my heart. I hate spot drama.
Exactly, I'm just thinking about whether he has anyone on his team that can help him with that math problem. It's a simple problem but I don't know if the people around him can help him with that in an effective way.

With Japanese skaters, it's always a mix of individuality and duty when it comes to retaining spots. It does impact the way their federation sees them, whether they can be trusted and relied on to deliver for the whole team when it matters. This is Yuma's first time leading the Japanese men and it happens to also be the season that decides Olympic spots, and it's the first time he has to rely on other Japanese skaters who he can't control the results of, and both of them are Worlds first-timers. It is plenty of angst, but this has been the case for many years for Japan.
 
That interview with Carolina also makes me think whether she's the right messenger to deliver her message (which I agree with) to Yuma. Don't get me wrong, Carolina is a decorated top skater with her achievements, but her coaching experience before Yuma is helping Lori Nichol out with choreography, and she didn't experience any pressure or burden of having to maintain consistency of multiple quads in order to compete with other skaters who are also maintaining consistency of multiple quads. I think that position can dilute her message before Yuma a bit, because what does she know about focusing on oneself while the rival is attempting to land 6 different types of quads in every FS? And another rival is landing quads and including backflips in his program? And another rival is landing quads as the second jump of his combination?

Sure, she never did quads, but her competitors didn't either, and it's not like Yuma is quadless. He is landing quads and has beautiful SS and better choreography. He'll be fine if he can just focus on his own content. I don't think it's time to try out the 4Lz or 4Lo again next year. Stay with the 4F, 4S, 4T x2, and he will score great. Yuma's 4S even outscores Ilia's 4Aq (I have my own feelings about this, but whatever).

If we're gonna do math, let's say Yuma actually did hit his planned content in the FS. Yuma would have been scoring 205-210 if he was clean with his PCS advantages. He would have been 312-317 to Ilia's 318 here, and in this case, yes, accurate PCS judging really would have mattered in terms of the final outcome. If Yuma was clean and lit up the arena and Ilia looked tight at the end and missed a whole combo, then we really could have been looking at a different outcome. Yes, it depends on Ilia being messy, but Ilia can be messy.* Ilia didn't have a clean FS all season.

I'm a bit confused as to why Yuma was so tense about the 3 spots though. Shun had skated before him already and did well, 6th at worst. Yuma would have had to slide all the way to 9th for them not to get 3 spots outright. He had such a big lead on the rest of the field. But I guess I can't say what is going through someone's head when they know they didn't skate well and they feel like they let themselves and their federation down. :(

*Also, to Ilia's credit, I think he himself does not consider himself to be unbeatable. Much of his rhetoric post-Worlds was about him trying to clean up inefficiencies and quality of his skating since Nationals. I'm not sure how well he succeeded either, but I'm glad he's working on it. Once this new rule change comes in post-Olympics with the decreased number of jumping passes, he will have even less of a BV advantage.
 
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I'm a bit confused as to why Yuma was so tense about the 3 spots though. Shun had skated before him already and did well, 6th at worst. Yuma would have had to slide all the way to 9th for them not to get 3 spots outright. He had such a big lead on the rest of the field. But I guess I can't say what is going through someone's head when they know they didn't skate well and they feel like they let themselves and their federation down. :(
Like @TontoK said, it's a math problem. Once Yuma lost the 4F, it became a "how many mistakes can I afford" situation and then misses kept coming and coming. Yuma just does not have enough buffer in the BV and mistakes cut down to both his strengths in GOE and PCS so I can imagine his panic and he likely forgot he had a big lead from the SP. In the FS he only had 1 clean quad out of 4 attempts and it was the 4T2T combo. That's okay if you're Jason Brown or Junhwan Cha... that's not okay when you want to score over 300 total (which is what Yuma said he wants for this season).
 
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Didn't they do "The Entrance" at the Paris Olympics? I definitely remember for swimming events. They didn't need to ham it up, just entering as they chose was fun.

I also like "The Entrance" for another reason: it is fairer to all the skaters for applause. No comparing applause like with "The Lineup". Not that I would ever do that ;)

The Leaders Chair can be safely disposed of however. Although I did love Deniss V.'s sportsmanship in giving Jason a prolonged standing ovation with the rest of the crowd. :)
 
The PCS in the FS should have been lower for sure, but I actually would have given him high 8s (like 87) and he got a 91, so it's not like his total score really was that far off.

Why 87 specifically? Do you mind elaborating a little bit on that? Would love to hear reasoning, the more specific the better
 
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