2025 Worlds: Women's thoughts and comments

[Joekaz]

That is kind of ironic, in a way. To criticsise FIGURE SKATERS for turning too much on the ice. Shame on them, what do they think this is, figure skating?

But seriously, the reason that I put the emphasis on women's skating is that in men's, the ship has already sailed. Nothing counts except how many total revolutions in the air you do. What you do on the ice -- not so much. (Literally, not so much, as the ISU scale of values make abundantly clear. I am not offering this observation as an adverse criticism , necessarily -- just reality.)

I agree there, but I meant women were turning too much on the ground during their jumps. Lol My point was the ridiculous amount of prerotation that is used by almost all the women on pick assisted jumps is distorting the nature of the particular jumps themselves. I don't blame the coaches for exploiting loopholes in the rules to get their skaters to be able to do triples. I blame the ISU for not closing those loopholes. They should change the prerotation allowed for flip and lutz to 1/4 turn instead of 1/2 turn. The technique many use now changes the fundamentals of the jump from vaulting up and back as you initiate the jump and twist your body, to almost doing a loop where you touch your pick foot and facing fully forward as they leave the ice(Allysa actually exceeds the current rule, tbh) . Lol I understand the ISU likes 3/3 combos to pretend the sport is progressing, but properly executed 3/2 are perfectly fine, especially in combination with the other aspects of ground figure skating you mention.

 

[Alex Fedorov]

I truly do feel sorry for you.

As I understand it, your argumentation boils down to this "feel sorry" and a mention of some post-Soviet ideological baggage. Well, what can I say - it is really extremely sad when people try to explain and justify Kaori Sakamoto's inability to consistently perform 3+3 cascades (in particular) with some political or ideological reasons that have nothing to do with figure skating. Probably, I only need to throw some post-Soviet baggage out of my head - and the single 1Lz+3T cascade will immediately outweigh two 3+3 cascades and an Euler cascade 3+3. Probably, two times two will immediately equal a hundred, and I will immediately feel ashamed for daring to reproach the greatest champion in the world history for such trifles.

You felt sorry for me - but I admire your enlightened consciousness. Indeed, only the darkness that has settled in my head makes me ask whether the double axel is so great that it should make me melt with delight.

 

[Joekaz]

The discussion, though, was not about whetther the athletes perform better or worse but whether the judges tend to be influenced by crowd noise. The study quoted by Button's Niece found that, at least for Association Football (soccer) referees in 2002, yes, the referees heard the cheers from the audience.

Of course we expect figure skating judges to be made of sterner stuff than mere soccer referees. Still, it can't hurt for a skater to try to project to the audience.

I agree there. Most sports teams value playing at home partly for that reason.

 

[Joekaz]

As I understand it, your argumentation boils down to this "feel sorry" and a mention of some post-Soviet ideological baggage. Well, what can I say - it is really extremely sad when people try to explain and justify Kaori Sakamoto's inability to consistently perform 3+3 cascades (in particular) with some political or ideological reasons that have nothing to do with figure skating. Probably, I only need to throw some post-Soviet baggage out of my head - and the single 1Lz+3T cascade will immediately outweigh two 3+3 cascades and an Euler cascade 3+3. Probably, two times two will immediately equal a hundred, and I will immediately feel ashamed for daring to reproach the greatest champion in the world history for such trifles.

You felt sorry for me - but I admire your enlightened consciousness. Indeed, only the darkness that has settled in my head makes me ask whether the double axel is so great that it should make me melt with delight.

I actually prefer Wakaba's 2A to Kaori's anyway. Traditionally 2As are a showcase for height, not length and speed. Sakamoto's 2A has a somewhat flat trajectory despite good height. The length and speed propaganda the last 4 years has been off the chart. Speed is a positive, but this isn't a speed skating contest. And the speed and flow in and out of pick assisted jumps is often because of cheated takeoffs. A proper vault off the pick acts somewhat like a pole vault and transfers your forward motion to vertical motion and hinders the forward momentum. In the GOE bullet points for jumps, speed is not mentioned at all.

 

[Arigato]

Malinin received fewer compliments for 4A than Kaori for 2A.

 

[Magill]

That is kind of ironic, in a way. To criticsise FIGURE SKATERS for turning too much on the ice. Shame on them, what do they think this is, figure skating?

But seriously, the reason that I put the emphasis on women's skating is that in men's, the ship has already sailed. Nothing counts except how many total revolutions in the air you do. What you do on the ice -- not so much. (Literally, not so much, as the ISU scale of values make abundantly clear. I am not offering this observation as an adverse criticism , necessarily -- just reality.)

Any ship that has sailed needs to come back to its home port at some point, sooner or later, unless crushed by a disaster or sank in a storm
Let's hope TBTB find a way to bring men's skating safely home. And sooner than later. No need to waste time this way.

 

[Arigato]

I don't know what I hate more, the Russia supporters coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that everyone sucked [...]

I guess some people are really ticked off everyone had such a great time watching figure skating in Boston.

 

[Dawn825]

First, without doing my own detailed rescore and rewatching every program 3x in slow motion, I have no idea who should have won.

K couldn't help myself lol, started a technical rescore.
For the SP tech, Alysa looked good to me and I would have had her even a little further ahead. Mone, Wakaba and Isabeau are basically in a clump, with either a q, a !, or both. Then a gap before Amber with the fall and combo UR, and then unfortunately Kaori even farther behind with the pop and E for the Lutz.
Truth is we just don't have the technology to call everything perfectly. Tried my best

 

[Dawn825]

I also wanted to add, being live for the FS was genuinely one of the best nights of my life. I love skating so much, and so many of the girls

 

[Jammers]

Well.. it's not true...
Yes, the top skaters are all doing the same thing... but back then, you didn't need a triple triple just to qualify and you could make it without one of the harder jumps (lutz and flip)

Radio won a bronze medal at 2015 worlds and her career was plagued by injuries until she retired officially... but in any case, she was one of the first examples of disposable skaters from ROC. (the better part of her career was in juniors.. and mind you, back then, you could become senior quite young)

Radio wouldn't have won a medal here with her scratchy skating and underrotated jumps. She barely held on and beat Gracie who totally bombed her short.

 

[Wafflecakes]

Overall, the 33 competitors performed mediocrely. The judges suffered temporary blindness when it was the local skaters' turn, and we know Liu is the queen of underrotations.
The commentators are complicit in and responsible for fostering this mediocrity. The guy who narrated said during a skater's performance that started with a 3+3 combination: "the SUPER combination 3Lz+3T." What? Why do only one or two of the 33 skaters perform a 3+3 combination in the bonus zone? Is it time to define the 4+2 and 4+3 Ultra Combinations?
Elena Radionova declared yesterday: "The girls are showing the same set of elements that we showed 9 years ago at the World Cup in the same city". No Lena, the ISU made the competition easier for these girls. Nine years ago sequences didn't have the same base value as combinations and the sub-rotations were marked as sub-rotations not as q.

Alysa Liu is world champion in the absence of elite skaters because she was the least bad of 33 skaters and with the help of the judges.

Yeah we need to save skating with the Russian girls again.

Pre-rotating their jumps left and rights and calling their triples quads.

The double standards of some posters is mind boggling.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I don't know what I hate more, the Russia supporters coming out of the woodwork to proclaim that everyone sucked, or the weird "Murica" vibe from some US fans.

Yeah it's annoying. Especially the double standard about jumps. The Russian skaters have flawed technique too.

Alysa's jumps are better than they used to be, but her toeloop combos (including the 2Toe after the 2Axel) should be given 'q' calls. In the end it doesn't really matter though, because Kaori gave away the championship in the Short Program and herself gets away with a ! Lutz that hasn't been getting called.

 

[CellarDweller]

Of course, I loved seeing Alysa win! The audience went wild for her, and the energy in the arena was over the top!

I was also very happy to see Kaori skate live, her Chicago routine was just perfect! She was in character for that music the instant she stepped on the ice, and it's VERY easy to see why she was a 3-time world champion!

I will remember Amber's fight, I was so glad to see her move up to 5th place.

One skater who I haven't seen mentioned yet (if someone has and I missed it, I'm sorry!) is Ekaterina Kurakova from Poland. She skated with a sense of freedom for her Cats program, charmed the audience, and she got the first standing ovation of the night. The joy on her face when she saw the standing ovation was so good to see.

 

[moonvine]

Of course, I loved seeing Alysa win! The audience went wild for her, and the energy in the arena was over the top!

I was also very happy to see Kaori skate live, her Chicago routine was just perfect! She was in character for that music the instant she stepped on the ice, and it's VERY easy to see why she was a 3-time world champion!

I will remember Amber's fight, I was so glad to see her move up to 5th place.

One skater who I haven't seen mentioned yet (if someone has and I missed it, I'm sorry!) is Ekaterina Kurakova from Poland. She skated with a sense of freedom for her Cats program, charmed the audience, and she got the first standing ovation of the night. The joy on her face when she saw the standing ovation was so good to see.

I love Katya

 

[Dawn825]

K couldn't help myself lol, started a technical rescore.
For the SP tech, Alysa looked good to me and I would have had her even a little further ahead. Mone, Wakaba and Isabeau are basically in a clump, with either a q, a !, or both. Then a gap before Amber with the fall and combo UR, and then unfortunately Kaori even farther behind with the pop and E for the Lutz.
Truth is we just don't have the technology to call everything perfectly. Tried my best

For the FS I have Alysa miles ahead with no calls.
Mone, Isabeau and Amber are all basically tied for the FS, with one negative GOE each, and would finish in that order.
(Isabeau is so special on the rewatch, I think her style is just better suited for TV than an arena.)
Big gap before Wakaba with 2 UR and a wobbly spin, Kaori definitively in 6th with a UR and 2 Es.

Interesting, everything basically matches the judges scores except Kaori's placement, which for me was determined almost entirely by calling the flutzes.
Oh well, she's still my favorite

 

[Mathman]

I actually prefer Wakaba's 2A to Kaori's anyway. Traditionally 2As are a showcase for height, not length and speed. Sakamoto's 2A has a somewhat flat trajectory despite good height. The length and speed propaganda the last 4 years has been off the chart.

Wait... The speed pf a jump? Is that really a thing?

I quite agree that a double Axel where the toe-pick acts as a pogo stick to shoot the performer straight up into the air, that's a thing of beauty. I wouldn't even mind the 2A+ combinations if they had that feature .(Might be hard to get the "speed" necessary for the second jump, though.)

A lot of men do have a satisfactory triple Axel + triple or double toe-loop.

 

[Mathman]

Interesting, everything basically matches the judges scores except Kaori's placement, which for me was determined almost entirely by calling the flutzes.
Oh well, she's still my favorite

Thank you for the thoughtful and dispassionate analysis. To me, Kaori's unclear Lutzes were less important than the overall performance quality. I was quite content to see her placed isecond in the free skate, and would have had no quarrel if she had been first in that segment. -- although Alysa's performance can't be denied either.

 

[TT_Fin]

Though I am not biggest fan of Gubanova - don't take this like I would hate her, it's more neutral, she ok but not the style of my fandom persons - I hope she is ok. She has been quite volatile this season, good skaters and not good skaters, but I did not expect something like this.

Niina Petrokina is a good jumper. Needs no calls. I don't know if I have said it before, but as many others I lika Nina P's dress. Dresses can be gorgeus without too much bling blings.

As I already wrote on competition thread, I am ok with the results but I would have put Kaori 1st in the FS. I am not sure how the jumps should be, because I see almost everybody URs, but there is certain % the blade must be backwards, not 100%? I think our commentators have said it but do not remember and I am too lazy find out, especially when I know some kind person on this forum does it.

We all have our favorites and people people never agree with opinions - not even always in sport where results are easier to measure - and let everybody to have their own favourites.

I am not missing little girl's circus tricks. If a program have 3A or one quad, it is ok, but quad circus turns me off watching women. And some people say please allow quads in women's short, I say there is no reason to do it. Many people disagree when I say those program lack the beauty of the sport and you are as allowed to do it as well I am allowed not to like it and I can keep my opinion for free. What I miss from country who was not there is skaters like Liza Tut. I did not pay attention to her at all at first years, I was fun when she turned 20 and still continued. IMO she is the best-ever-skater from that fed and main reason is the length of the career. Sorry talking about skaters who where not there, but I compare it here because liked that all medalists where at least 19, as well the majority of the participants as well.

 

[Joekaz]

Wait... The speed pf a jump? Is that really a thing?

I quite agree that a double Axel where the toe-pick acts as a pogo stick to shoot the performer straight up into the air, that's a thing of beauty. I wouldn't even mind the 2A+ combinations if they had that feature .(Might be hard to get the "speed" necessary for the second jump, though.)

A lot of men do have a satisfactory triple Axel + triple or double toe-loop.

I literally have read comments talking about how Kaori has the longest and highest speed 2As. So what. This isn't barrel jumping. Lol You are right that the hardest part of doing a proper pick and launching vertically on a 3/3 combo is carrying enough speed into the second jump. I remember Dick Button bragging about Michelle Kwan doing a perfect flip, straight up and down like Janet Lynn.(He didn't literally mean 100 percent, obviously) But with that form, unless you are a tremendous leaper, its very difficult for women to complete a triple as the second jump. Thats why 3/2 were the norm then. I know people say you have to be allowed 180 degree pre rotation to do 3/3s. No, that means you need to do a 3/2 instead of changing the mechanics of the jump. Swimmers that are slow in the breaststroke can't do a modified butterfly and call it a breaststroke. Lol

 

[Joekaz]

K couldn't help myself lol, started a technical rescore.
For the SP tech, Alysa looked good to me and I would have had her even a little further ahead. Mone, Wakaba and Isabeau are basically in a clump, with either a q, a !, or both. Then a gap before Amber with the fall and combo UR, and then unfortunately Kaori even farther behind with the pop and E for the Lutz.
Truth is we just don't have the technology to call everything perfectly. Tried my best

If you slow it down and watch where the toe pick first contacts the ice, Liu is short on several jumps, including the combo in the SP. Her flip is also !. And if you want to really be strict, she consistently exceeds 180 degrees prerotation on her lutz and loop, although she looks back over her shoulder to try to camouflage it. Granted, the ISU doesn't care what people do on takeoff and doesn't allow slo mo to catch it. But there was so much inflation, lowballing, and missed or created calls in this event its a waste of time trying to figure it out. In other words it was a normal ISU event. Lol