Replay Lounge 2026 Olympics | Ice Dance

[4everchan]

Yes, could it be possibly be that ...wait for it...

They were not in fact over-scored this cycle.

If that's your opinion, I respect it. If you try to present it as fact, then I may upset your little cousin

Simply put, I have read it often on this forum how CB have won events despite mistakes, even falls ( of course, not on an element ) and being given very scores for twizzles etc when other teams just were better.

In the last few years, their Boston worlds performance is the one that for me, was the most deserving of a win. Even over my favourites. But yeah, my take on Montreal worlds is completely different. They did not deserve that title and I'm certainly not alone to say it.

 

[readernick]

I am no fan of FBC for the off-ice reasons and I am one of those who, frankly, would rather see someone else win, with no indication of any specific someone. But this debate is clearly just as biased as the judging allegedly was. Now, look me in the eye and tell me, would the outrage with the scores be even half as wild if the runner-ups were not Americans, but Danes, Spaniards or Japanese? No, it would not. This is waving the national flag just as much as the supposed judges did while looking away when the same thing was happening to the benefit of American skaters. Chock and Bates included.
Sorry to say, but overscoring certain skaters and underscoring their rivals is a daily, though appalling, routine in this sport, and not just in ice dance. Complaints are routinely dismissed as conspiracy theories and mocked as wazrobbed. Whatever happened here was no different than what American judges have been doing for years to support their own. Nothing special,really.,And if you were not vocal against your own judges biased scoring, it is just hypocritical to suddenly demand an investigation when the tables turned.

I've been upset about the scoring all season ever since the Italians were clearly, unfairly dropped at their first competition this season. It was clear that the judges had decided they weren't going to be getting great PCS/ GOE anymore. They still received low GOE and PCS for wonderful elements and a stunning dance at Europeans. I think I was one of the few complaining after their first competition.

The way Piper/ Paul were scored early in the season and at GPF was also upsetting to me. Although in that case, I thought PCS more than GOE was the problem. The Brits do, generally, perform elements well. But, it's that result that made a lot of people in this forum upset. Some of those same people have no problem with the clearly biased scoring of the Italians or C/B in this competition if you want to discuss hypocrisy.


All these results, including yesterday's were upsetting to me. If the French won on SS, I would have been fine with it. What they are doing isn't to my taste and their dance isn't particularly creative or difficult but their flow and glide can't be ignored. That's the only quality they clearly excel at and it should have been what brought them the win. But, they didn't win primarily because of PCS. They won because elements with clear mistakes were given ridiculous GOE. That GOE can't be defended and so people are not defending it. Instead, they are deflecting. C/B being overscored at another competition does not mean Cizeron didn't mess up his twizzles, almost drop his partner, or botch his steps. This is just the latest example of terrible judging but we've seen a lot this season. This kind of judging regardless of who it is for is problematic.

 

[el henry]

If that's your opinion, I respect it. If you try to present it as fact, then I may upset your little cousin

Simply put, I have read it often on this forum how CB have won events despite mistakes, even falls ( of course, not on an element ) and being given very scores for twizzles etc when other teams just were better.

In the last few years, their Boston worlds performance is the one that for me, was the most deserving of a win. Even over my favourites. But yeah, my take on Montreal worlds is completely different. They did not deserve that title and I'm certainly not alone to say it.

It is an opinion, all I have are my opinions.

Can I say something in all seriousness, not trying to be snarky, just an observation, and I will try to say this neutrally.

Many of the criticisms of Madi and Evan in the past quad seemed to come from Piper and Paul fans. They felt that their fav skaters presented different and creative skating, programs, etc., a higher level of skating. It appeared to me that if they felt if Madi and Evan had not been "overscored" then Piper and Paul would get their just rewards.

I am not speaking about you specifically, I am talking about my general impressions.

Well, that wasn't the issue here. Here, the choice was Guillaume and Lolo or Madi and Evan, and Madi and Evan skated better in my opinion.

Believe it or not, Madi and Evan are not my favorite ice dancers. My favorite ice dancers have unusual, out of the box programs, elements perfectly designed to the music and are woefully underscored. I speak of course of Oona and Gage Brown. Who will need to hang around for another four to eight years to even think about the Olympics. Because such is ice dance....

 

[4everchan]

I've been upset about the scoring all season ever since the Italians were clearly, unfairly dropped at their first competition this season. It was clear that the judges had decided they weren't going to be getting great PCS/ GOE anymore. They still received low GOE and PCS for wonderful elements and a stunning dance at Europeans. I think I was one of the few complaining after their first competition.

The way Piper/ Paul were scored early in the season and at GPF was also upsetting to me. Although in that case, I thought PCS more than GOE was the problem. The Brits do, generally, perform elements well. But, it's that result that made a lot of people in this forum upset. Some of those same people have no problem with the clearly biased scoring of the Italians or C/B in this competition if you want to discuss hypocrisy.


All these results, including yesterday's were upsetting to me. If the French won on SS, I would have been fine with it. What they are doing isn't too my taste and their dance isn't particularly creative or difficult but their flow and glide can't be ignored. That's the only quality they clearly excel at and it should have been what brought them the win. But, they didn't win primarily because of PCS. They won because elements with clear mistakes were given ridiculous GOE. That GOE can't be defended and so people are not defending it. Instead, they are deflecting. C/B being overscored at another competition does not mean Cizeron didn't mess up his twizzles, almost drop his partner, or botch his steps. This is just the latest example of terrible judging but we've seen a lot this season. This kind of judging regardless of who it is for is problematic.

I'll bite.

It is not because people are not talking about the Italians that they do not believe they were badly scored. Their free dance was scored low. They deserved better. They had my second favourite free dance of the evening, except for Marco and his twizzles. However, the discussion here is not about them. So, it's normal that the Italians or other deserving teams that were lowballed are not discussed at this moment. The Italians had a very rough start of the season. I don't think it was just the judges dropping them but then not being ready and in a very tough field.

Also, here's the thing... Judges gave the French 1 full point lower than the Americans on their twizzles. That's a huge gap in ice dance. They saw the mistake and they score it accordingly.

The lift. None of the judges scored It low. So who is cheating?

My take on this is that they didn't see it the way it was shown on the broadcast or they didn't think it was wrong.

So that accounts for those two elements.

For the steps : that bobble is the one I'd like to question a tech specialist about. Again, the judges didn't mark it down. So if some are accusing a judge from cheating, how come this judge is marking elements more or less the exact same way as all the other judges?

If we are accusing the French judge of over marking their team, how come the USA judge is also giving very high mark to the French on some of these problematic elements?

Things didn't add up the way chock and Bates and their fans were hoping for. A different panel, a different day may have produced different results. It was a very tight event.

Anyway. Just my opinion.

 

[4everchan]

It is an opinion, all I have are my opinions.

Can I say something in all seriousness, not trying to be snarky, just an observation, and I will try to say this neutrally.

Many of the criticisms of Madi and Evan in the past quad seemed to come from Piper and Paul fans. They felt that their fav skaters presented different and creative skating, programs, etc., a higher level of skating. It appeared to me that if they felt if Madi and Evan had not been "overscored" then Piper and Paul would get their just rewards.

I am not speaking about you specifically, I am talking about my general impressions.

Well, that wasn't the issue here. Here, the choice was Guillaume and Lolo or Madi and Evan, and Madi and Evan skated better in my opinion.

Believe it or not, Madi and Evan are not my favorite ice dancers. My favorite ice dancers have unusual, out of the box programs, elements perfectly designed to the music and are woefully underscored. I speak of course of Oona and Gage Brown. Who will need to hang around for another four to eight years to even think about the Olympics. Because such is ice dance....

Well, it's like everything in life. Polarization. Piper and Paul.fans, and I am one of them, are Piper and Paul fans because they like their skating... Madi and Evan bring something else to the table. So. Yeah, Piper and Paul fans often have been vocal about some of these scores. At the same time, some of them, like myself, also argued that in some events, chock and Bates were better ( Boston worlds).

Piper and Paul's fans are just happy now because that medal was a hard one to get. And for once, the polarization doesn't include them what a relief!

 

[readernick]

If that's your opinion, I respect it. If you try to present it as fact, then I may upset your little cousin

Simply put, I have read it often on this forum how CB have won events despite mistakes, even falls ( of course, not on an element ) and being given very scores for twizzles etc when other teams just were better.

In the last few years, their Boston worlds performance is the one that for me, was the most deserving of a win. Even over my favourites. But yeah, my take on Montreal worlds is completely different. They did not deserve that title and I'm certainly not alone to say it.

I agree they were overscored in PCS at Montreal worlds in the FD.They won because they were 6 points ahead in the RD ( which was consistent with the judges preference for their RD material in that season). I loved the Italians, P/P's and C/Bs FD material that season and I think that P/P and the Italians should have both been ahead of C/B in that FD. However, I think even with fair PCS they still would have won the competition given their RD lead. I did find their RD to be the best of the lot that year. ( I didn't like it but I also didn't hate it, P/P and G/F really missed the mark material wise in the RD) but I agree that the judges PCS ( although not GOE since it wasn't on an element) was wrong and indefensible. That doesn't mean this result is right. Very simply two wrongs don't make a right.

I'll bite.

It is not because people are not talking about the Italians that they do not believe they were badly scored. Their free dance was scored low. They deserved better. They had my second favourite free dance of the evening, except for Marco and his twizzles. However, the discussion here is not about them. So, it's normal that the Italians or other deserving teams that were lowballed are not discussed at this moment. The Italians had a very rough start of the season. I don't think it was just the judges dropping them but then not being ready and in a very tough field.

Also, here's the thing... Judges gave the French 1 full point lower than the Americans on their twizzles. That's a huge gap in ice dance. They saw the mistake and they score it accordingly.

The lift. None of the judges scored It low. So who is cheating?

My take on this is that they didn't see it the way it was shown on the broadcast or they didn't think it was wrong.

So that accounts for those two elements.

For the steps : that bobble is the one I'd like to question a tech specialist about. Again, the judges didn't mark it down. So if some are accusing a judge from cheating, how come this judge is marking elements more or less the exact same way as all the other judges?

If we are accusing the French judge of over marking their team, how come the USA judge is also giving very high mark to the French on some of these problematic elements?

Things didn't add up the way chock and Bates and their fans were hoping for. A different panel, a different day may have produced different results. It was a very tight event.

Anyway. Just my opinion.

The judges didn't see the mistakes but casual fans in the arena did? Broadcasters did? I did in real-time? If that's the case, we need new judges because these judges clearly aren't good at their jobs and I'm someone who almost always believes that it is incompetence not a conspiracy. Anyway, I've never attributed this result to just one judge. The French judge was and has long been very very biased but it was the majority of the panel that overscored in GOE. I'll give the Finnish judge props for at least noticing and giving plausible GOE to the steps and twizzles ( by the way if other judges had given similar GOE and PCS.. the Finnish judge did put FB/ C first in PCS...C/B would have won by several points) but none of the judges properly judged that lift. So, maybe you're right. It is just incompetence. The judges are just pressing buttons and not actually looking at what is happening. In that case, these judges better get better training because this season has been a travesty.

 

[Magill]

Actually, you implied that people who are angry about this were just American flag-wavers who wouldn't have cared if the results didn't involve an American team.

Are you forgetting the scores of Americans who were angry about the Sochi women's results? About the Salt Lake pairs results? About the Lillehammer dance results (although I concede that was more sentimental for Torvil and Dean than anything = Usova and Zhulin should have won). Anyway NONE of these involved a legitimate American contender.

Any of these involved American judges propping up an American skater/team or/and lowballing their competitors? I don't see any in your list.
Or you truly believe US judges never ever do it and it's always someone else who's at fault or benefiting from national bias?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I was just so happy for Piper & Paul. They skated with nothing to lose. They embraced the moment and owned it. They did not skate to protect a lead. They were not nervous. They had faced being unfairly dumped by the judges at GPF, and they got through that disappointment and stayed true to their creative and emotional vision for bringing back Vincent. I am glad that everyone now understands and respects the reason why they brought back Vincent and stayed true to their poignant reasoning, and gained strength and freedom through the adversity of rejection.

While watching Piper & Paul skate, I began to feel this performance as their Olympic swan song to an amazing, creative, and unforgettable career journey. They have contributed so much to ice dance. The creativity and delight they brought will never be forgotten. They definitely should have won at least one Worlds. It would be nice if FB/C and C/B skip '26 Worlds and P&P go and end up winning, as they should have won at 2024 Worlds in Montreal. No matter what they decide, this was a special Olympics moment for them. I was crying with them and cheering through my tears.

Of the top teams who retire before the next quad, I will miss Piper & Paul most of all. 🎗 ️

 

[4everchan]

Slightly off-topic :

I was just watching Moguls. Canada's Mikaël Kingsbury won silver today. His scores were identical to the Australian skier. They used a tie-breaker and awarded the Australian the gold. Kingsbury has 4 Olympic medals. He is the most decorated athlete of the sport. The Australian had the run of his life... I believe he has one World Cup podium... He barely made it out of the qualifying. He is pretty much unknown but had the run of his life.

Where is the uproar ? Where is the petition ? Where are the upset competitors. Okay. Mikaël threw his skis but he explained that he was super happy with the silver, congraluted the winner, said many nice things about him, gave him a big hug, was all smiles on the podium. He explained that the reaction came from the fact that losing a gold medal on a tie-breaker is probably the craziest way to lose a gold medal


So... no uproar... no petition... no anger... and this is where I tie in with figure skating. The issue with the sport is that fans, skaters and coaches at this point do not believe in the judging. There is no trust in it. There wasn't in 2002... there still isn't in 2026.

I liked @readernick's post up there, not because of the first paragraph because I still believe that Piper and Paul deserved the gold in Montreal. I was there, the RD scoring was a choice I liked the post because I do believe at this point that the judging is all over the place. And how does the ISU dare to invite to the Olympic Games judges that were formerly banned ? I mean... How does that help fans, skaters and coaches to trust the system ?

So yeah, the ISU needs to do better.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

C/B being overscored at another competition does not mean Cizeron didn't mess up his twizzles, almost drop his partner, or botch his steps.

There were three separate minor glitches by Cizeron and one by Laurence as well that may not have been noticed. None seriously interrupted the flow of the program. The judges took off a point on the first glitch, did not take off enough on the second, and possibly, due to the angle, the judges may not have seen the third. The protocols should show whether the third glitch received negative GOE.

Cizeron stepping his foot down early on the last of the first twizzle set, and managing to cover it (tho' not to discerning eyes) doesn't add up to 'messing up his twizzles.' Nor did he 'botch' his steps. Nor did he look in danger of 'dropping his partner.'

The scoring system in ice dance needs reworking. But there is a judging criteria the judges must adhere to. In the most recent Skating Session episode, the hosts explain the ice dance judging process which sheds light on the fact that the elements FB/C performed brilliantly outweigh the nervy minor glitches.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I know pairs is judged differently, but it's rather interesting how no one cried out after GPF for the Miura/ Kihara judging favoritism to be investigated. It's also not the first time M/K have won with mistakes. When they skate clean, their scores become astronomical and unreachable. It's safe to say that M/K will win the Olympic gold in pairs, especially if they don't completely tank.

ETA:
If anyone has access to Carol Lane's CBC commentary during P&P's FD, could you share what she said? Thanks in advance.

 

[Arigato]

Sue me for forgetting to manifest the removal of the French judge.

OLYG judges wouldn't know if they are 1) a scoring judge or 2) a discarded judge. Pretty tough for anyone to cheat when you have no way of knowing if your score even counts to begin with. Ay? So why remove a FR judge (who is a woman btw, not a guy).

Quick primer on how scoring works at OLYG and ISU Championships only:

1. Computer randomly selects 2 out of the 9 judges on the panel and removes their scores. Completely.
2. The panel now has 2 "discarded" judges and 7 "scoring" judges. No one knows which group they are in.
3. The highest and lowest marks for each element and program component are then removed to prevent bias.
4. The result is called the trimmed mean - the average of 5 remaining scores.

Let that sink in. This is why when I use skatingscores.com, I only use the "mean" and the number of points above or below the mean.

The key takeaway: even though many judge's scores go unused, all 9 scores remain visible.

The public isn't allowed to know which scores actually got used, but they are allowed to know the scores each judge gave.
The problem is, they don't know what they don't know. Translated: Hello, conspiracy theories. This is how they get born.

 

[anonymoose_au]

It would make sense to prohibit judges from every country that has a skater entered -- but then, you wouldn't be able to find enough judges to hold the event.

Haha maybe that's why there used to be an Aussie judge in all the old events I've watched - and they were harsh. Although this was in the old 6.0 days and their ordinals never seemed to be out of line with the others...so maybe Aussies just liked marking low.

 

[Magill]

Someone on X made a graph of scores from all the judges and concluded that if you take out both the French judge and the US judge, France still wins. I do not really have time now to analyze this graph and whether it is correct, but someone asked here about such an analysis earlier on, and I came across it so I'm putting it here, and you can analyze it yourself and share conclusions.

 

[Demandred]

OLYG judges wouldn't know if they are 1) a scoring judge or 2) a discarded judge. Pretty tough for anyone to cheat when you have no way of knowing if your score even counts to begin with. Ay? So why remove a FR judge (who is a woman btw, not a guy).

Quick primer on how scoring works at OLYG and ISU Championships only:

1. Computer randomly selects 2 out of the 9 judges on the panel and removes their scores. Completely.

What is the source for this? I don't see any mention of it in ISU's official rules. And looking at the protocols at the Olympics it doesn't seem that such a step is used.

 

[Andrea82]

OLYG judges wouldn't know if they are 1) a scoring judge or 2) a discarded judge. Pretty tough for anyone to cheat when you have no way of knowing if your

What is the source for this? I don't see any mention of it in ISU's official rules. And looking at the protocols at the Olympics it doesn't seem that such a step is used.

Point 1 and 2 do not take place anymore. It was in the original "new" judging system but they were dropped at 2010 Congress (so after 2010 Olympics)

 

[4everchan]

OLYG judges wouldn't know if they are 1) a scoring judge or 2) a discarded judge. Pretty tough for anyone to cheat when you have no way of knowing if your score even counts to begin with. Ay? So why remove a FR judge (who is a woman btw, not a guy).

removing as being replaced with the draw. After the RD, 4 judges were removed and replaced by 4 new judges. It's by draw and has nothing to do with the scoring they made. I manifested the removal of the British judge it happened ... but also the German judge who had put Piper and Paul 1st in the RD was removed (sigh)

Quick primer on how scoring works at OLYG and ISU Championships only:

1. Computer randomly selects 2 out of the 9 judges on the panel and removes their scores. Completely.
2. The panel now has 2 "discarded" judges and 7 "scoring" judges. No one knows which group they are in.
3. The highest and lowest marks for each element and program component are then removed to prevent bias.
4. The result is called the trimmed mean - the average of 5 remaining scores.

Let that sink in. This is why when I use skatingscores.com, I only use the "mean" and the number of points above or below the mean.

The key takeaway: even though many judge's scores go unused, all 9 scores remain visible.

The public isn't allowed to know which scores actually got used, but they are allowed to know the scores each judge gave.
The problem is, they don't know what they don't know. Translated: Hello, conspiracy theories. This is how they get born.

We are talking about two different things here but its okay I think it's important that some people are made aware of both the selection of judges and also the scores treatment but as pointed out, your info is not up to date

 

[4everchan]

Haha maybe that's why there used to be an Aussie judge in all the old events I've watched - and they were harsh. Although this was in the old 6.0 days and their ordinals never seemed to be out of line with the others...so maybe Aussies just liked marking low.

there was an Aussie judge in the RD. I think they scored Piper and Paul well

 

[Mathman]

[L]ooking at the protocols at the Olympics it doesn't seem that such a step is used.

Yes, you can tell this from the protocols even without actually doing the math. If you look at the trimmed means for PCSs, they always end in .03, .07, 0.11, etc. These are the decimal equivalents of 1/28, 2/28, 3/28... Each judge scores to the nearest quarter of a point, and, after trimming off the highest and lowest, you take the average of 7 such 1/4 marks -- hence, 28ths.

I think that this idea was the ISU's last gasp at retaining "anonymous judging" -- hoping that if the public did not know which judges gave which scores, or even which judges' scores counted at all, this would damp down criticism of judging and endless conspiracy theories.

It didn't -- it just made fans all the more angry.

 

[TontoK]

Yes, you can tell this from the protocols even without actually doing the math. If you look at the trimmed means for PCSs, they always end in .03, .07, 0.11, etc. These are the decimal equivalents of 1/28, 2/28, 3/28... Each judge scores to the nearest quarter of a point, and, after trimming off the highest and lowest, you take the average of 7 such 1/4 marks -- hence, 28ths.

I think that this idea was the ISU's last gasp at retaining "anonymous judging" -- hoping that if the public did not know which judges gave which scores, or even which judges' scores counted at all, this would damp down criticism of judging and endless conspiracy theories.

It didn't -- it just made fans all the more angry.

Bring on the AI judging system!

Only partially kidding - I actually think it would work for technical calls.