59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[Mathman]

No, they are doing it because they are trying to slow, stop or even {gasp} reverse the decline in interest in the competitive sport worldwide...

I do not think it is possible to bring back the 1990s -- aka, the golden age of figure skating -- when the sport was right up there in terms of audience appeal, the ISU was awash in cash and Olympic champions were household names. The Hanyu phenomenon in Japan is quite unique and will not be duplicated by any male skater, however elegant and athletic. Twiddling with scales of values and balanced program rules will not amount to a hill of beans in this regard.

(Actually, I was just reading an interesting article that asserted that the true "golden age of figure skating" was the last couple of decades of the nineteenth century and the fist few years of the twentieth. There was a mini ice age in Europe that produced extremermely cold winters, just at the time that the technology of skate manufacture and skating rink construction came together. Skating was a huge social recreation all over Germany-Austria, Scandanavia, England, and later the United States.

Ah, I remember it well. Even when the next ice age comes along, we can't go back to those days, no ,atter how many jumping passes or choreographic spins are allowed in competitions.

But I might be wrong. Biathlon is still a cool sport even though Norwegian soldiers no longer are called upon to ski down mountain sides while shooting at th enemy or at their supper.)

 

[Mathman]

Me too. It really bothers me that just because Zagitova did all her jumping passes in the second half, that no one's allowed to do a 3-4 or a 2-5 program, just because she took it to the extreme. Everyone does 4-3 now, and it's boring and formulaic.

Every skater is allowed to do a 3-4 program or a 2-5 progam if they want to, without any penalty whatever.

 

[skatesofgold]

I do not think it is possible to bring back the 1990s -- aka, the golden age of figure skating -- when the sport was right up there in terms of audience appeal, the ISU was awash in cash and Olympic champions were household names. The Hanyu phenomenon in Japan is quite unique and will not be duplicated by any male skater, however elegant and athletic. Twiddling with scales of values and balanced program rules will not amount to a hill of beans in this regard.

(Actually, I was just reading an interesting article that asserted that the true "golden age of figure skating" was the last couple of decades of the nineteenth century and the fist few years of the twentieth. There was a mini ice age in Europe that produced extremermely cold winters, just at the time that the technology of skate manufacture and skating rink construction came together. Skating was a huge social recreation all over Germany-Austria, Scandanavia, England, and later the United States.

Ah, I remember it well. Even when the next ice age comes along, we can't go back to those days, no ,atter how many jumping passes or choreographic spins are allowed in competitions.

But I might be wronmg. Biathlon is still a cool sport even though Norwegian soldiers no longer are called upon to ski down mountain sides while shooting at th enemy or at their supper.)

I don't think the popularity of figure skating will ever be what it was either:

1. Culture shift (which relates to my next point)
2. Decreasing attention span because the short video phenomenon is rewiring young people's brains
3. Too expensive to go to competitions

 

[skatesofgold]

Every skater is allowed to do a 3-4 program or a 2-5 progam if they want to, without any penalty whatever.

Then why don't they? Isn't it because they changed the bonus system as well?

 

[saine]

So plenty of time for Some People's Hero to get his (already awarded, it seems) OGM. Why all the griping?

I thought that the pass with a delay would be the outcome from watching the workshop and that ended up being the case. Definitely an interesting watch to how they got to the vote at the end

 

[FlossieH]

Then why don't they? Isn't it because they changed the bonus system as well?

It is more difficult for skaters to do jumps in the second half when they are more tired. Only 3 jumping passes in the second half attract the second half bonus, so the risk of doing more jumping passes in the second half exceeds the reward.

 

[skatesofgold]

It is more difficult for skaters to do jumps in the second half when they are more tired. Only 3 jumping passes in the second half attract the second half bonus, so the risk of doing more jumping passes in the second half exceeds the reward.

That's what I thought. So 2-5 and 3-4 programs are discouraged.

 

[Mathman]

Judging will no longer even pretend to be fair after 2027

Judging will always pretend to be fair, just as in the glory days of 6.0.

 

[FlossieH]

That's what I thought. So 2-5 and 3-4 programs are discouraged.

2-5 and 3-4 programmes are permitted, and there is no penalty for having more jumps in the second half (it's not a case of the jumps becoming invalid), but they are unlikely to be advantageous for the skater.

 

[Mathman]

That's what I thought. So 2-5 and 3-4 programs are discouraged.

Well... "discouraged" in the sense of not being specifically rewarded by extra points. I think that the whole second half bonus thing was developed to increase variety. The traditional formula was, do all your hard stuff up front, then comes the the "slow part" where the skater glides around catching his breath, and then a dash to the finish. The ISU figured that programs would be more interesting and varied if highlight elements are scattered throughout.

As with most such prodding, it kind of backfired. Like when the IJS pushed Biellmann positions to get an extra level or a few extra hundredths of a point in GOE. Suddenly eveyone was struggling to get that leg up there somehow by hook or crook no matter what.

 

[TallyT]

Me too. It really bothers me that just because Zagitova did all her jumping passes in the second half, that no one's allowed to do a 3-4 or a 2-5 program, just because she took it to the extreme. Everyone does 4-3 now, and it's boring and formulaic.

As said, everyone is allowed to, it's not even discouraged, just not deliberately encouraged any more.

I do not think it is possible to bring back the 1990s -- aka, the golden age of figure skating -- when the sport was right up there in terms of audience appeal, the ISU was awash in cash and Olympic champions were household names. The Hanyu phenomenon in Japan is quite unique and will not be duplicated by any male skater, however elegant and athletic.

Maybe (putting aside my cynicism-coloured glasses and obvious bias) what is more important at this media-driven, aesthetics-and-celebrity-driven time is creating a rulebook and sport which might encourage youngsters with the budding skills/artistry and charisma - okay, okay and sheer viewing beauty - as well as the tech wizardry to it (like Shoma as well as Yuzuru, like Shcherbakova with her medals and her multicountry stardom), even in countries other than the current power feds who have been pushing the tech. It won't be the 90s, but with the aesthetic appeal of skating on the points being encouraged again, it could be something new.

 

[Mathman]

By the way, I should add that I have absolutley no quarrel with Zagitova's Don Quixote program. In fact, it was a choreographic marvel. The flurry of jumps at the end perfectly suited the musical structure in addition to showcasing the performer's stamina and training. Plus the jump-free first half contained plenty of spins and moves in the field to hold our interest.

This does not mean that the ISU should preserve rules that push all programs into that mold.

 

[Arigato]

Iconic? Oh please.

See if I ever eat dinner while reading your posts again. Food flew everywhere. Now I need coffee.

The general media have no idea why a 4A is any more 'speshull' than the other quads, the general audience can't even tell them from triples

True. Heck, people used to miss Yuzu's 3A because he rotates so fast. They "counted" 2 rotations.

 

[cailuj365]

Maybe (putting aside my cynicism-coloured glasses and obvious bias) what is more important at this media-driven, aesthetics-and-celebrity-driven time is creating a rulebook and sport which might encourage youngsters with the budding skills/artistry and charisma - okay, okay and sheer viewing beauty - as well as the tech wizardry to it (like Shoma as well as Yuzuru, like Shcherbakova with her medals and her multicountry stardom), even in countries other than the current power feds who have been pushing the tech. It won't be the 90s, but with the aesthetic appeal of skating on the points being encouraged again, it could be something new.

Well, these skaters are all rightfully World or Olympic champions, so I would say that the current judging system is still rewarding well-rounded skaters and performances. I don't think anyone is winning on messy technical content alone, no matter the starting base value, nor should they. Also, no one is going to win on "sheer viewing beauty" or blade-work alone, nor should they. The latter might be what solo ice dance will be for.

 

[Minz]

Another thing people are discussing is that they might change their minds again, like they did with the flip/lutz BV thing a few years back.

Honestly, the ISU might be more incompetent than real governments.

 

[TallyT]

Well, these skaters are all rightfully World or Olympic champions, so I would say that the current judging system is still rewarding well-rounded skaters and performances. I don't think anyone is winning on messy technical content alone, no matter the starting base value, nor should they. Also, no one is going to win on "sheer viewing beauty" or blade-work alone, nor should they. The latter might be what solo ice dance will be for.

True, but I was thinking in that post more about the audiences than the judges, who I've given up on anyway. The ISU and TPTB reward the skaters they want to push, the audience and sponsors (who are obviously sensitive to audience) follow where and when they will. And an iconic program should be beautiful in one form or another, even if standards of beauty vary from country to country and fan to fan.

To play devil's advocate here, despite the people on this thread talking about how thrilling and exciting the big quad programs are, the research TPTB's pr people do may have shown that in fact they bore more people than they thrill. I don't think so myself, because I don't think TPTB's pr people are at all competent enough to work out what their own research means.

It would be dead funny if solo ice dance was brought in and became more popular than the other solo ones... again I don't think it will. But definitely would be funny

Honestly, the ISU might be more incompetent than real governments.

Certainly more politically all over the place.

 

[TontoK]

So plenty of time for Some People's Hero to get his (already awarded, it seems) OGM. Why all the griping?

We've been assured several times on the thread that this proposal didn't target any particular skater.

Of course, I never believed that, and it seems you didn't either.

 

[TallyT]

We've been assured several times on the thread that this proposal didn't target any particular skater.

Of course, I never believed that, and it seems you didn't either.

I don't believe it does, true, none of the current crop and few in history are that important.

 

[cailuj365]

To play devil's advocate here, despite the people on this thread talking about how thrilling and exciting the big quad programs are, the research TPTB's pr people do may have shown that in fact they bore more people than they thrill. I don't think so myself, because I don't think TPTB's pr people are at all competent enough to work out what their own research means.

Wait, research?! What research? Is anyone ACTUALLY doing high-quality research about figure skating viewership that one can draw meaningful conclusions from? I would love to see the studies. But you're right, that conclusion is probably BS. None of the recent championship performances with multiple quads bored more people than they thrilled. Just listen to the audience reactions.

But anyway, does this mean that NONE of the proposed rule changes are starting until 2026? Like the choreographic spin? The back flip deduction going away? Edit: nevermind, just read that the back flip penalty removal is effective immediately!

 

[Jumping_Bean]

We've been assured several times on the thread that this proposal didn't target any particular skater.

Of course, I never believed that, and it seems you didn't either.

... The fact that you read this comment as anything else than a clear dig at people who were essentially getting into a panic over "poor little Ilia" (as you also were doing) is kind of confusing to me.

This comment is essentially the equivalent of for example an atheist replying to people telling them that they're going to hell by saying "Thank you, I'll have fun in hell." Does that mean they believe in hell? No, they're just making fun of people preaching at them.