59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss

[Magill]

You've got the point with Yuzu doing things for the public. But... the public isn't what it used to be (sheesh, I sound very old and I'm not even 40). Skaters used to do many thing for the public, like step sequences that sent the audience to the moon, knee spins, funny litte hops (I mean Candeloro squat jump that looked like inspired by kozachok), shadowfencing or martial arts moves. When Elvis Stojko did step sequence in Conquest of Paradise, public was louder than when Ilia did 4A. Because it was public that understood it's figure skating, not jump skating and that jumps aren't the only technical element in fs that is hard to master. I remeber lots form Elvis program and I don't even remember what Ilia wore during his FS. I remeber what Ilia wore during SP only because I thought that it is ridiculous to make insane jumper and energetic teenager skate such program, to such music, in such outfit and that he himself feels visibly awkward during the skate.
Now we hear that fs without jumps is boring. Aha, do they realize that there times jumppasses were not limited?

Agreed. Still when Yuzu was doing some of his iconic step sequences, the public was equally loud, standing up and screaming in amazement just the same. And it is not the jumps which is drawing crowds to his solo shows. So it is not the public which has changed. There are those who love the jumps and jumps only but I guess they were always there, and they are not all of FS fans, or not even a majority. If that was the case, the sales and the viewership in general would be growing fast and large by now. Which is not the case.
I do really think that an exceptional iconic step sequence which is remembered for decades and which people keep going back to for years and years should be worth in points more than a best-executed quad or even a quad combo. This would be just fair. Still I am aware of how such scoring which is vey subjective could be easily distorted to manipulate the scores in all sort of ways - and we could end up with results which would make such a solution just pathetic. So I don't really know what is the right solution any more until FS judging is dealt with first.

 

[Karoltyna]

Agreed. Still when Yuzu was doing some of his iconic step sequences, the public was equally loud, standing up and screaming in amazement just the same. And it is not the jumps which is drawing crowds to his solo shows. So it is not the public which has changed. There are those who love the jumps and jumps only but I guess they were always there, and they are not all of FS fans, or not even a majority. If that was the case, the sales and the viewership in general would be growing fast and large by now. Which is not the case.
I do really think that an exceptional iconic step sequence which is remembered for decades and which people keep going back to for years and years should be worth in points more than a best-executed quad or even a quad combo. This would be just fair. Still I am aware of how such scoring which is vey subjective could be easily distorted to manipulate the scores in all sort of ways - and we could end up with results which would make such a solution just pathetic. So I don't really know what is the right solution any more until FS judging is dealt with first.

I'd say the viewership droped and fs was more popular back then. Yuzu has fans who will write that they prefer him not doing any quads than getting hurt while trying. Before FaOI some even stated they'd prefere he didn't jump at all during the show because he was hurt. They care about him and this is the public ISU should be aiming, not people thinking skaters have to try to "progress" to the point they are hurting themselves.
To some extent I can understand why "new" fans and fans who don't skate themselves are hyping jumps. It's relatively easy to see which jump is better, although I saw people seriously discussing "prerotated" sals and praising flutzes as texbook jumps and tbh, I used to be able to do some singles (and now I would probably kill myself trying to do a waltzjump) and I'm having troubles in counting revs. But, it's still easier to see than to understand why some step sequences are so awesome and what it takes to master those edges, this isn't so obvious if you don't have knowledge. So maybe answer would be educating and trying to make people skate recreationaly so that they know that is going on on ice and why one spin i worth more than other.

 

[Mathman]

Yuzuru Hanyu: "Honestly, I don't even know why I bother to do it as it gives no points at all. From the competition point of view, it is not rewarded. So I guess I do it just for the public and for myself."

Has there ever been a skater who has not expressed that sentiment? Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen never got any points for doing a Charlotte spiral. Shizuka Arakawa and Junhwan Cha did not get any points for an Ina Bauer.

That is one limitation on the code of points scoring system. There are so many things that can be done on the ice that it would require a scale of values a thousand pages long to list them. I guess that's where PCSs come in.

 

[TontoK]

Has there ever been a skater who has not expressed that sentiment? Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen never got any points for doing a Charlotte spiral. Shizuka Arakawa and Junhwan Cha did not get any points for an Ina Bauer.

That is one limitation on the code of points scoring system. There are so many things that can be done on the ice that it would require a scale of values a thousand pages long to list them. I guess that's where PCSs come in.

Many examples of this sentiment. I always think that little heel pop some skaters do in a camel spin is the coolest move. But I think, and I'm not positive, that it will now count as a feature for levels.

Also in the "unrewarded" category: Adam's aerial/butterfly thing... not an original move, I guess, but his is so spectacular. Ilia's raspberry thing.

 

[Mathman]

In terms of "what do audiences appreciate the most," my unscientific observation is this. Yes, skaters get spplause when they do a big element. But the biggest applause comes at the end of the program, rewarding the program as a whole.

 

[4everchan]

Those special moves are rewarded as transitions ( back then), skating skills, choreo and can contribute to presentation. It's big disinformation that they are not rewarded.

 

[Minz]

Let’s at least agree on one thing: the ISU is incompetent

 

[lariko]

Those special moves are rewarded as transitions ( back then), skating skills, choreo and can contribute to presentation. It's big disinformation that they are not rewarded.

It is now in composition score, so 33% of the PCS mark. Big reward. The skaters can, of course, flirt with audience all they want saying how they are doing it for the love of the craft.

 

[Karoltyna]

Let’s at least agree on one thing: the ISU is incompetent

Indeed.

 

[Arigato]

BTW, Yuzu came to his fame having no social media presence, no big pr agency to represent him and no fed love to try and swing ISU rules in his favour. Watching the current shenanigans makes me appreciate his wild and genuine success even more.

True. Some people don't even realize that. And yet that enigmatic personality is what drove skating fans and a relentless bank of photographers to follow him around the world wherever he skated. It was organic. Purely. I also appreciate his success even more after watching the farce taking place in Las Vegas.

I hope that the fact they allowed backflips will simply make them go and if not, that we will see Suria style backflips than Adam style backflips. His landing makes me want to scream witch panic. The same with his arabian landing, it looks as if he was fighting for his life, Ilia's 540 jump is better and smoother.

I don't want to see Adam skate like a little girl from decades past; I want his skating and his flip done his way. His choice. His Arabian looks great to me and I love the speed and intensity with which it is executed. In short, it's a pleasure to see a guy skate so aggressively. I find it refreshing.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Let’s at least agree on one thing: the ISU is incompetent

If you ever needed any proof of that, look at the round-about way they went about migrating the ISU Results website to secure protocols.

Two years ago, they created an identical secure website, which ran in parallel to the old unsecure website. Then a week or two ago they switched the protocols around so that the new site was unsecure and the old site was secure. Now they have closed the new site, with no re-directs.

And all this has created a nightmare for me, because when the new site opened, I went through all my Fan Fests and changed all the links to point to it. And for the past two years, I used links to the new site in all my reminder posts. And whenever I have been linking to ISU Bios, I have been linking to the new site version of the pages.

And all of those links now need to be replaced!!!

Gaaaahhhhh!!!!!!

CaroLiza_fan

 

[Mathman]

It is now in composition score, so 33% of the PCS mark. Big reward.

Kind of a double-edged sword, though. This could be used in support of the argument that the PCS factors need to be increased. After all, if these cool moves are what the paying customers want to see, then the ISU should give them some push.

 

[AlexBreeze]

I won't be surprised if the 6-jumps rule ends up like the qualification round.
And I don't believe it changes anything. Ilia will include something like 3A+3A and have huge BV gap above everyone. In general skaters with difficult combos would benifit from the rule.
I also don't believe ISU cares about SS and so on. If it was the case, they would give more significance to the StSq, ice dancers would still have the pattern dance and so on. It's simply proposed to replace the jump with nothing. I don't believe it will affect the programs. And it didn't previous time. Those who have had problems with skating aren't going to magically fix it in their 20s. Instead of this jump there will be some sliding, or they will use the time to rest between jumps.

I dislike the idea of replacing the technical elements (spins, lifts) with good rules to choreo elements for those top skates would just get +100 GOE and that's all. I don't think there's any place for subjective elements in the technical score. There are already options to make normal spins/lifts look great and unique such as Miura/Kihara's signature entry&exit.

I have nothing against backflips. Skaters will learn them if they are allowed or not. There are much more dangerous things in ice shows. The only problem I can see is that doing a backflip at the end of a program after a bunch of jumps can actually be more dangerous than in exhibitions.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

I'm not sure if this got lost in this thread, or if it wasn't written out, and I really don't want to go back through the last pages, so here is a list of technical changes that will be going into effect next season:

Proposal 236
In any spin change of edge can be counted only if done in a basic position. Variations of the position of the head, arms or free leg, as well as fluctuations of speed are permitted.
Spin in one position and (in Singles) Flying spin (which means a spin with a flying entrance and no change of foot and position): positions that are not basic are allowed, counted in the total number of revolutions required by the Rules, but are not valid for Level features.
The concluding upright position at the end of the spin (final wind-up) is not considered to be another position independent of the number of revolutions, as long as in such a final wind-up no additional feature is executed (change of edge, variation of position etc).

Illegal/Elements Movements are
- somersault type jumps;

Proposal 237*
Proposal dealing with Short program requirements in Juniors, usual changes of the required solo jump and spin:
2024-25: Flying camel spin, double/triple Flip, layback/sideways leaning/sit spin (Jr women); sit spin (Jr men)
2025-26: Flying sit spin, double/triple Loop, layback/sideways leaning/camel spin (Jr women); camel spin (Jr men)
2026-27: Flying camel spin, double/triple Lutz, layback/sideways leaning/sit spin (Jr women); sit spin (Jr men)

Proposal 243*
Proposal dealing with Short program requirements in Pairs:
Seniors:
2024-25: Group 4 lift (hand-to-hand), pair spin combination, backward outside death spiral
2025-26: Group 5 lift (lasso), pair spin combination, backward inside death spiral
2026-27: Group 3 lift (hip), pair spin combination, forward inside death spiral
Juniors:
2024-25: Group 4 lift (hand-to-hand), double/triple throw Salchow, double Flip/double Axel, pair spin combination, backward outside death spiral
2025-26: Group 5 lift (lasso), double/triple throw Toe loop/Flip/Lutz, double Loop/double Axel, pair spin combination, backward inside death spiral
2026-27: Group 3 lift (hip), double/triple throw Loop, double Lutz/double Axel, pair spin combination, forward inside death spiral

*Only listing requirements that are changing

 

[saine]

I won't be surprised if the 6-jumps rule ends up like the qualification round.

Canada's proposal for the technical rules for the season to be published by May 31 passed. Russia spoke about it passing as a reason for the delay in implementation (and supported the proposal for May 31 as well.)

So depending on the date of the next Congress, it could muck up the rules if it's after May 31 and someone wants to change back to the current rules. It doesn't mean someone won't try, but it'll make it harder.

 

[Mathman]

I don't want to see Adam skate like a little girl from decades past...it's a pleasure to see a guy skate so aggressively.

This is the first time I have ever heard the little girl from decades past (Surya Bonaly) criticized (by implication) for not being aggressive enough. At the 1992 Olympics she did a backflip during practice right in Midori Ito's face. Ito was so rattled that she abandoned her planned triple Axel in the short program and went with a triple Lutz instead -- unsucessfully, which delivered the gold medal to Kristi Yamaguchi. (Katarina Witt was another little girl from those decades who tried to bully and intimidate the competition by staring them down in practice.)

As for doing it his own way, Adam at 2024 worlds channeled Surya at 1994 Olympics. Being too far behind after the SP, he decided to thumb his nose at the ISU and the skating establishment and do a backflip just for the hell of it despite the rules against it.

Adam is gaining on the little girl, though. He has 2 European Championships, 1 world medal and 2 French National titles. Surya has 5 Europeans (she was really mad when Irina Slutskaya broke her streak in 1996, then went on eventually to win 7), 3 world medals and 2 French Nationals.

 

[Mathman]

Let’s at least agree on one thing: the ISU is incompetent

Oh, I don;t know. True, nobody likes authority and everybody thinks, "I could do it better if only I were in charge."

As for the question, "what do figure skating audiences want to see?" I think that there are three constituencies to address. There are the people like us who are intensely interested in the sport and who post long and loud on forums like Golden Skate. We seem to be a mixed bag. If there is any point of view that can claim a majoity is is that we cherish most the skaters who are exceptional at everything.

Then there are the casual fans, including the once-every-four-years brigade. Again, some fans like one thing, some anpother, and quite a few just tune in to see who wins.

Finally there are the other 8 billion people on the planet. What can the ISU do to bring a few hundred million of them into the fold? Dunno.

 

[Arigato]

This is the first time I have ever heard the little girl from decades past (Surya Bonaly) criticized (by implication) for not being aggressive enough.

No one did.

Full post:

"I don't want to see Adam skate like a little girl from decades past; I want his skating and his flip done his way. His choice. His Arabian looks great to me and I love the speed and intensity with which it is executed. In short, it's a pleasure to see a guy skate so aggressively. I find it refreshing."

My post was to support Adam's current style of skating and not to make him skate like someone he is not.

 

[lariko]

I won't be surprised if the 6-jumps rule ends up like the qualification round.

I hope so.

 

[Magill]

Has there ever been a skater who has not expressed that sentiment? Michelle Kwan and Sasha Cohen never got any points for doing a Charlotte spiral. Shizuka Arakawa and Junhwan Cha did not get any points for an Ina Bauer.

That is one limitation on the code of points scoring system. There are so many things that can be done on the ice that it would require a scale of values a thousand pages long to list them. I guess that's where PCSs come in.

Those special moves are rewarded as transitions ( back then), skating skills, choreo and can contribute to presentation. It's big disinformation that they are not rewarded.

It is now in composition score, so 33% of the PCS mark. Big reward. The skaters can, of course, flirt with audience all they want saying how they are doing it for the love of the craft.

But that's the point. Crowd pleasing elements go without reward in the scoring system.
You would not have to list separately each element as they may be too many, but just make it possible for best step sequences to get the same TES as best jumps and make the score much more discriminating between best st seqs, choreo etc and those which are just ok. The score which you can get for a jump, depending on the number of rotations, GOE etc may range by 10-15 points between skaters. Why not the same range for other elements?
The number of points these elements get now as compared to jumps is just pathetic. And there is basically no way to make spectacular step / choreo / spins etc make a huge difference in the score. While it should, as this is what also makes programs so remarkable as you can easily see in threads on the most memorable programs. It is not jumps that programs are remembered by, but it is jumps which are mostly rewarded with points.
As for the "cool moves" being rewarded in PCS, just be real. High PCS are nowadays awarded as an extra to go with TES. So, no, you do not need to do anything spectacular in the PCS department to be rewarded with high PCS, just be okay-ish and jump, jump, jump... Otherwise the difference in PCS between, let's say, Jason and Ilia should be more or less the same as the difference between them in the jump-related TES, as this is just as huge a gap when it comes to what we see on the ice. But in reality that's not the case. And with this judging and scoring system, it will never be.