Let's move ahead, then, two years to 2016. Still 8 passes and 4:30 but 4-5 quads. In 2016 at 4CC, Boyang Jin did double the quads of Patrick Chan. He still lost to Patrick. It seems to me that if people would learn to skate well they wouldn't be forced to put in all those quads. Yes, forced to. If someone skates so poorly they can't win without jamming in as many quads as possible, there's a problem. People aren't jamming in quads because they can, they are jamming in quads because they have to.
59th ISU Congress: Watch and Discuss
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Let's move ahead, then, two years to 2016. Still 8 passes and 4:30 but 4-5 quads. In 2016 at 4CC, Boyang Jin did double the quads of Patrick Chan. He still lost to Patrick. It seems to me that if people would learn to skate well they wouldn't be forced to put in all those quads. Yes, forced to. If someone skates so poorly they can't win without jamming in as many quads as possible, there's a problem. People aren't jamming in quads because they can, they are jamming in quads because they have to.
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People who like figure skating usually are not jump detractors. I don't see many here. The people who are vocal, and I will include myself in there, are often just saying that there are more to the jumping in figure skating, and that the focus in training on getting all these high valued elements done, is detracting from other skills. It's not really anything against the jumps. It's against the lack of balance. What makes a program stand out is not a quad toe or a triple axel. It's usually everything else. Engaged steps, smooth skating, interesting spins, musical timing... This will make me watch a program again. The jumps are cool but it's just not enough for me. That doesn't make me a jump detractor. I jumped off my seat at Worlds for Ilia's stellar jumping fest. I had seen this program already in October... seen it again live in March... and still wouldn't be able to tell much else about it than the amazing jumping and his own cool move the raspberry twist... which, though it has no BV, is still a jump. So there's that.
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And those who have to jam in quads, force the others who could bring high quality skating to do the same.
One doesn't need to name every single step in a sequence to see that in Ice Dance, Chock & Bates are slower than Tashlers in every single TV set.
One doesn't need to name every single step in a sequence to see that the skater bents his back towards the ice while not be able to bent his knee.
One doesn't need to name every single step in a sequence to see that one skater makes several different steps before a jump whereas the other just makes a tour on the ice.
One doesn't need to name every single step to see that choreography is not when you wave you arms like a windmill.
One doesn't need to name every single step to see that a skater who masters skating skills and components should not be disadvantaged in favor of someone who only jumps.
One just needs to not be biased towards a country that spent years promoting jumps because it was the only way for their skilless made-of-wood skaters to get a medal.
Could? I'm not sure what you are really saying here.
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Yeah, one doesn't need to know anything to make pseudo-deep sweeping statements like that about a skater, when none of it is actually objectively true in reality. Knowing for yourself is the only way to know for sure, because figure skating is certifiably corrupt in every country in the way the judging is done. Attacking anything is far too easy, and the more one does it, the more they become committed to attacking it, no matter what is actually happening. In and of itself, the sport promotes factions and divisions, partisanship. No wonder people mask it by a bunch of cherry-picked technical terms to give legitimacy to their opinions, when most of this things are judgment calls and strongly depend on the individual biomehacnics and angle at which one views what is happening at a high speed or is purely a matter of taste, like above-mentioned large arm and body movements vs smaller ones.
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I fully agree with you that figure skating is corrupt. And not only figure skating. I used to be an athlete myself and I know from inside how politicking is done.
But there are still differences. Some federations still take into account their athletes' performance and base their "behind-the-curtain" intrigues on some objective facts.
Ohters lost completely their touch to the reality and can kick a skater out of the podium just to teach them a lesson or so.
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Just saying what Patrick was saying back then. For him, at 3 quads, he could see that he was no longer able to create good, balanced programs. He added the salchow and then took it out. He admired the ability of quadsters to do what they were able to do but already had given a clear warning about what was just about to happen. Sure, Patrick's detractors can say that he wasn't as good with quads as some others, but they are forgetting that he didn't need to have 4 or 5 quads back then so he didn't train for that.
Adam manages do include the many quads and the choreography. His skating could be smoother at times though.
Yuma has amazing skating skills. He is now saying he needs to up his BV. What will get lost ? The choreographic moment that allows us to enjoy his stellar glide and speed ?
That's what I am saying.
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I haven't seen a single fed that acted any differently, and I only watched skating since 2018. I am also 100% sure that if the judging was done truly blindly and with all the bullets followed, the results would have been far more random.
Bingo.
Transcript from 2015 GPF on NBC Sports:
Johnny Weir on air: "It isn't just the quads, it's the quality of the quads, it isn't just the jumps, the skating is beautiful, the delicate touches that none of the other men are doing, it's the stacking from top to bottom."
Terry Gannon on air: "And midway through, you forget what you're watching. You forget about the quads, you forget about all the technical elements there and you're just lost in the program."
They were talking about Yuzu's long program, Seimei.
Those comments are what a balanced program will get you. But you don't hear that on air anymore. Not on NBC.
Couldn't agree more.
I come from a hybrid sport myself. And from my experience, it's balanced athletes that are respected most in the fied and not those who stand out in one dimension.
We had people who were extremely fast but quite bad at other things. And those were still winning, obviously, because they were coming first to the finish. Yes, it looked outstanding and spectacular, but inside, everyone still wanted the most balanced one to win because we knew they worked hard on every single dimension and not only brought their best skill up to excellence. And when this happened, believe me, the ovations were standing.
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Losing a combo isn't going to turn anyone into Shoma Uno--and I specifically use Uno, because he has the highest natural ability to interpret music I had seen, and I feel he never had enough appreciation.
Each of those elements is a separate thing, and a program is a routine. Statistically, there is no difference for each element to pass or fail, if it's 6 or 7 jumping passes, because each test is spearate. It won't help bad jumpers to stay on their feet more.
The program is not an inspired improv, they cooked up when they stepped on ice. They drill and drill and drill, but their natural ability and body build will always determine stuff like glide. How's taking out a combo going to make them glide better or faster, or pick better music? If they can't fill what they have now with choreo, they are going to stretch it even thinner to fill in more time with it.
i just don’t get it.
i mean, if people wanted new skaters, okay, sure, replace the current crop with gliders, who will be selected from the 3 yo group now, so you will watch mainly the gliders in 10 years in juniors. But people want to see the same skaters only doing things they can't do? Mind-boggling. It's like demanding Kagiyama grow Nguyen's personality by 2026 and add half a meter of height, then he will be just right.
It's absurd.
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Ah, yes. I read the interview Patrick gave when he explained the degradation as you add quads. Thanks for clarifying. I also agree with you that trying to compare one skater to another when both were not trained on the same jumps makes little sense. I couldn't care less how many quads Patrick was or wasn't doing, I still watch his Blackbird 2016 GPF SP. I have a smile on my face when I watch it. Some people watch old movies that are great, I watch old skating programs that are great. And speaking of old programs and Patrick, I hear one of Adam's favorite programs is the same one I just mentioned. He has a good eye. And, yes, he has room to improve his skating skills. I think he is in good hands with Benoit Richaud. Richaud isn't just his choreographer, he is one of his coaches. Benoit will look at the camera and tell you straight up, he is all about increasing the artistic side of skating. In just a couple seasons with him, Adam looks like a completely different skater. He's with the perfect team to give him balanced programs. Benoit would never allow anything else. Heh.
As for Yuma? That kid can skate. I watch his jump GOE and his running edge out of the jumps. He might not move me, so to speak, but I appreciate the quality of his jumps and smooth exits.
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i do get that you don't get why I am (and some others) wanting something else. It's about vision. It is looking at what we would like the figure skating of 10-20 years from now to be. To have this vision, one needs to understand the history of the sport.
What I will give you : removing one jumping pass will not transform Malinin into a Patrick Chan nor a Shoma Uno. You are correct there.
Will it have an effect on the programs we will see in ten years ? Hopefully so.
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They don't, but the sport that sets the rules has to consider the audience as a whole (especially when they lost millions in the last eoy, and we keep hearing USFS is too broke to fund their skaters properly). Not the minority who want all jumps, nor the one who want all choreo/skating skills. Because with all due respect, if folk like - well, no names - do believe the only good rules are those that benefit their viewing pleasure and no one else should get a look in, they need to find a way to make up those millions in losses before they get more of a say than the folk who don't agree with them. Or TPTB who are looking to make up the losses (good luck with that, y'all),
It's one thing to complain, and god knows you have all heard me bemoan and bewail more than once (or twice, or...) but simple fact is, the ISU tried the 'it's all about the jumps' route and are learning the hard financial way that it doesn't seem to be popular enough to pay the bills. And Trusova tried it - with the rules some people are wildly defending! - and ended up with absolutely no major international gold and a meltdown at the Olympics.
No one is saying no jumps. The greatest stars of the IJS era all have jumps, a lot of them. Some of them even make the jumps as beautiful as any other element (okay, until we see the shots of their faces midjump
) The biggest stars of shows (which is decent renumeration is, at least in Japan, and probably these days in Russia given the TT stars are probably pretty much out of competition) have jumps. But they have more. It sounds to me like the not named folk truly believe their own favourites don't have any more, are just one trick kangaroos.Let those favourites prove them wrong.
Johnny and Tara know where their bread is buttered
and are not very good at hiding the fact.
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To paraphrase a great man...
"You use that word, I do not think it means what you think it means."
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Rivalled only by their faces during a spin. Those G-forces will do their thing.The greatest stars of the IJS era all have jumps, a lot of them. Some of them even make the jumps as beautiful as any other element (okay, until we see the shots of their faces midjump
The greatest stars of the IJS era all have jumps, a lot of them. Some of them even make the jumps as beautiful as any other element (okay, until we see the shots of their faces midjump
Great thread idea. Post videos of the worst/funniest mid-air faces. Ever.
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You are right, I don't want something else. I already see this something else in women skating since 2022 and I don't like it. I want to be crystal clear--I don't want Russians--or anyone else for that matter-- hog the podiums. But removal of Russians means women no longer pursue the jumping content and/or, like Yoshida, under-rewarded for it (or, like Amber, can't handle the jumping content). What replaced jumping content internationally has by far less watchability for me. It became uniform and boring, lacking any sort of energy and intrigue. Now, some of my fav Russians don't jump, but the mix with the jumpers gives their competitions the third rail with live current. I can't recall a single stirring performance on the international side in the women's division since the schism. The jumps were no longer there, and it got worse.
I think people conflate the wrong things. They see the absence of someone who inspires them as a sign that the rules are wrong, not as a sign that they simply haven't latched on any individual skater at the moment. After all, your favorite Patrick Chan skated with 7 or even 8 jumping passes and you liked what he delivered. Maybe Lui's return will be the thing I need to watch women with more engagement.
Anyway, no longer watching if it's too boring is always an option, so, yeah, this is something to worry about in 2026.
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There has only been one program I have rewatched over and over again for its artistic value and that's Matt Savoie's long program from 2006. Just because some of us watch the sport for the technical side doesn't make our opinions any less valid. I foresee figure skating going backwards, like gymnastics has recently, besides a few stand out athletes. You can't micromanage a sport (technical requirements or program components) and expect to get the unique qualities you want. I know this for a fact.
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