A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[4everchan]

Karne,
I am basing the "max is out" on the very strong possibility as it's been mentioned at least in some broadcast of the SP that the SP counts for MEDALS and points towards GPF... if that holds true, and it seems like it will from what we have seen on tv, Max is out... he would have 15 points in SA and a 7th place in TEB which means what? 3 points? so 18 points... that amount doesn't not even make you an alternate for GPF... so please do not assign me intentions, I am just sharing what the analysts have said or explained on tv.

I learned at school. Not kept up with it though, so I'm quite rusty.



What of the men? Perhaps you ought to consider the effectiveness of tight leggings.



Max is in far greater contention than Jason. Jason's task at NHK is monumental. Max's task at TEB, if the full event had been held, was much more likely, even with his SP result, which is why using only the SP is unfair.



They didn't "suddenly" come up. He also had issues with Worlds in Nice in 2012. He has always had issues with France.



Max is NOT out - especially in comparison to Adam and Jason! Would you please stop saying that? And even with his SP at TEB he's still in better form than the other two - or is that why you don't want him in?

 

[mrrice]

well.. in tennis, top players get byes but not in the season's finale or the slams... very different format... in figure skating, top skaters do get rewarded by being seeded for GP events or also by getting to skate in the 2nd group based on their rankings.

True!!! I guess at Slams, I think of the qualifying rounds more like a GP event and the slam itself is the National or World event. For instance. Genie Bouchard never has to play qualifying rounds due to her high ranking. However, Aleksandra Wozniak always to play qualifying rounds just get to the first round of Slam. It has to be difficult for skaters to basically start from scratch every season. Especially a skater like Denis.

 

[mrrice]

Karne, is there a reason Misha keeps getting his visa denied? If so, why hasn't someone done something to fix this situation. Misha is a top level skater and I can only imagine the stress this visa issue adds to an already stressful sporting career.

 

[4everchan]

True!!! I guess at Slams, I think of the qualifying rounds more like a GP event and the slam itself is the National or World event. For instance. Genie Bouchard never has to play qualifying rounds due to her high ranking. However, Aleksandra Wozniak always to play qualifying rounds just get to the first round of Slam. It has to be difficult for skaters to basically start from scratch every season. Especially a skater like Denis.

well... there are major differences about both sports...

tennis is a match between two players.. winner goes on to the next round... figure skating is not like that at all... skate offs would be weird
also, what you are referring to about qualifiers for tennis is not that comparable... first of all... Wozniak used to be top 21 in the world and when she was up there, she didn't have to qualify ... she's been injured the past 3-4 years... and well, that's what it does... second, qualifiers happen for every tournament, not just slams... but in slams, they are much more noticed due to the importance of the tournaments... and what is important to point out is that the top 100-110 tennis players will still BE IN THE DRAW.... the qualifying will include a dozen of players from the ones who are inside the top 200 but not accepted in the main draw...

figure skating is not to be compared with any other sport because its format is completely different... there 6 seeded skaters each year based on their result from WC... these get assigned to GPs... one from 1-3, and one from 4-6 will make the top two seeds of each GP.... and then 10 other skaters are added based on their world ranking...

in some ways it is similar to tennis already... the difference is that there are only 2 events per skater... and there's no room for error and even less for a tragedy like the one happening right now... there' s no second chance...

the only way that the ISU could address injuries, VISA issues or things like the ones that just happened would be to have EACH top skater (the ones who get 2 assignments) get 3 assignments... and count the top two best placings...

but then it would be really hard for dark horses to win... it would also mean more skaters than 12 per GP... etc...

 

[Warwick360]

I've only got to read the last 2 pages, so sorry if my idea sounds dumbfoundedly stupid and repetitive but, is it not possible to just use the current SP score and then latch it on to the season's best LP of each skater/skating unit? (Granted, if all have skated at least once this season in an Internationally ratified competition)

I mean it wouldn't be unfair as latching on a personal best, because it's obvious not everyone's at the level that they might have been in the past, atleast not yet...(Cue Patrick Chan and Yulia Lipnitskya to name a few). And also there isn't the case of the likes of Porgo and Adelina being here, who clearly got outrageous scores in their home competition.

 

[karne]

Karne, is there a reason Misha keeps getting his visa denied? If so, why hasn't someone done something to fix this situation. Misha is a top level skater and I can only imagine the stress this visa issue adds to an already stressful sporting career.

I don't know precisely, but I believe that it is difficult for Uzbekistanis to get visas to a lot of countries - it's a longer process and more involved.

 

[mrrice]

4everchan,

Don't GP event have host picks similar to "Wild Cards" in Tennis? There's always a promising young Junior in first round of the US Open. Also, remember when the US federation sent Ashley to the Olympics over Mirah. Can the feds replace a skater in a situation like this? Patrick is clearly the best male skater in Canada and I would think they'd want him in the final no matter what.

 

[karne]

4everchan,

Don't GP event have host picks similar to "Wild Cards" in Tennis? There's always a promising young Junior in first round of the US Open. Also, remember when the US federation sent Ashley to the Olympics over Mirah. Can the feds replace a skater in a situation like this? Patrick is clearly the best male skater in Canada and I would think they'd want him in the final no matter what.

Not 4everchan but can answer this. Host picks can be a little wild card-ish, but usually feds give them to skaters who are fresh from Juniors and/or only have one event (like Ross getting the Skate America host pick) or who are just on the fringe of the GP series.

As for the situation where (correctly, I might add) the USFS sent Ashley to the Olympics over Mirai, the ISU's selection rules had nothing to do with it. The USFS had the right to send whoever they wanted as long as they met the minimum TES laid down by the ISU. I believe it is written in the USFS constitution that the National Champion is automatically selected for Four Continents, Worlds and the Olympics, but no other is guaranteed.

 

[4everchan]

well it's not fair for a few reasons

1) doing this, would place Chan ahead of Uno at TEB... despite Chan not being great and Uno getting his best SP score of the season... that's just one example..

2) some haven't skated yet this year on the GP (like V/T to name just one.. and in their case, haven't skated since the Olympic season).

3) some people were injured in previous competitions or are injured now...assigning denis' score from SA would completely lower his ranking at TEB... either way he is not a contender after a 9th place in SA (he was injured)... but in TEB, his sp was hinting that he is on the way back to health... so why assign him a score when he wasn't physically at his best?

4) why does anyone think that a personal season best LP is something guaranteed??? it's a personal best after all... I certainly don't wish to jinx my boy Chan but maybe he won't get 190 in a long time... maybe he had a magical LP at SC.... so it's not because he did it once that he should get it again automatically without earning it...

let me give you a silly analogy... let's say that the finals of the 100 M in track and field are canceled for similar reasons... would people think that it's okay to award medals to the results achieved in the semis? people would think no because so and so may have saved their energy for the finals or whatever... but would it be fairer to say, let's look at the fastest time everyone has posted this year in finals to award the medals... erm.. different (wind) conditions, different tracks (different judges in FS)

to me an event in the format we know for figure skating is a couple days long... not a year long... skaters have ups and downs... and that is reflected in the competition...going with previous LP scores is denying skaters who may have gotten their best LP in TEB a chance to better themselves too

I've only got to read the last 2 pages, so sorry if my idea sounds dumbfoundedly stupid and repetitive but, is it not possible to just use the current SP score and then latch it on to the season's best LP of each skater/skating unit? (Granted, if all have skated at least once this season in an Internationally ratified competition)

I mean it wouldn't be unfair as latching on a personal best, because it's obvious not everyone's at the level that they might have been in the past, atleast not yet...(Cue Patrick Chan and Yulia Lipnitskya to name a few). And also there isn't the case of the likes of Porgo and Adelina being here, who clearly got outrageous scores in their home competition.

 

[FSGMT]

I've only got to read the last 2 pages, so sorry if my idea sounds dumbfoundedly stupid and repetitive but, is it not possible to just use the current SP score and then latch it on to the season's best LP of each skater/skating unit? (Granted, if all have skated at least once this season in an Internationally ratified competition)

I mean it wouldn't be unfair as latching on a personal best, because it's obvious not everyone's at the level that they might have been in the past, atleast not yet...(Cue Patrick Chan and Yulia Lipnitskya to name a few). And also there isn't the case of the likes of Porgo and Adelina being here, who clearly got outrageous scores in their home competition.

I don't like this idea because it would be using "virtual" scores obtained in completely different conditions, let alone the fact that all the skaters have had different chances in terms of how many competitions they've done etc. For me, it would be even less fair than using SP scores as final results.

But then again, what if the 1st tiebreaker is not enough? How do we compare totaled scores with only the SP score? The tie is not broken and both go to the final?

 

[mrrice]

well it's not fair for a few reasons

1) doing this, would place Chan ahead of Uno at TEB... despite Chan not being great and Uno getting his best SP score of the season... that's just one example..

2) some haven't skated yet this year on the GP (like V/T to name just one.. and in their case, haven't skated since the Olympic season).

3) some people were injured in previous competitions or are injured now...assigning denis' score from SA would completely lower his ranking at TEB... either way he is not a contender after a 9th place in SA (he was injured)... but in TEB, his sp was hinting that he is on the way back to health... so why assign him a score when he wasn't physically at his best?

4) why does anyone think that a personal season best LP is something guaranteed??? it's a personal best after all... I certainly don't wish to jinx my boy Chan but maybe he won't get 190 in a long time... maybe he had a magical LP at SC.... so it's not because he did it once that he should get it again automatically without earning it...

let me give you a silly analogy... let's say that the finals of the 100 M in track and field are canceled for similar reasons... would people think that it's okay to award medals to the results achieved in the semis? people would think no because so and so may have saved their energy for the finals or whatever... but would it be fairer to say, let's look at the fastest time everyone has posted this year in finals to award the medals... erm.. different (wind) conditions, different tracks (different judges in FS)

to me an event in the format we know for figure skating is a couple days long... not a year long... skaters have ups and downs... and that is reflected in the competition...going with previous LP scores is denying skaters who may have gotten their best LP in TEB a chance to better themselves too

This is a very good statement. Frank has always talked about having skaters peak at the right time. Tom Z. talked about it as well. This may have been the event where skaters were told to relax during the SP and save it for a big FP score. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws.

 

[peg]

This is a very good statement. Frank has always talked about having skaters peak at the right time. Tom Z. talked about it as well. This may have been the event where skaters were told to relax during the SP and save it for a big FP score. I don't know, I'm grasping at straws.

Although I doubt that skaters were told to save it for the FS, what is true is that there are some skaters who often do better in one segment than the other. This year, Patrick and Liza seem to be struggling with their SP. Other skaters have stamina issues and tend to often place higher in the SP than in the FS. So in some ways, it's like stopping the decathalon after the sprint distance has been done, but not giving a chance for those who are stronger in longer distances to do that event.

 

[Snow63]

The only relatively fair way I see is to let skaters skate their FP/FD at different country/city/place at the same time. Everything else will not be 'fair'.

 

[Mattieu]

The only relatively fair way I see is to let skaters skate their FP/FD at different country/city/place at the same time. Everything else will not be 'fair'.

I agree, but sadly that is not practical financially or organizationally, unless they have a pre-qualification FP/FD at the GP final, before the SD/SP on one of the days the Juniors are skating?

 

[Jaana]

I think the only fair way is to use the sp results from TEB, because it would base on everybody´s actual skating in the TEB event. One can never be 100 % sure how well or badly the skaters would have competed in an imaginary TEB freeskate. Tough for some skaters, but this will just show how important a faultless sp is!

So, Uno would get 15, Kovtun 13 and Murakami 11 points, etc. from TEB.

 

[Lys]

I think that considering, for all skaters, the best sp score + the best fp score achieved during the GP events can be a solution to draw the final standings.

Yep, different events, different judges, different scores, but at least all skaters would have a sp + a fp counting.

I also think that finals with 8 skaters and not 6 could help even out disadvantages that any solution proposed will have.

 

[solani]

I want to mention that if Patrick and Elizaveta would have done well in the SP we wouldn't have this discussion. Then nearly everyone would be fine if they were just using the results from the SP. Just think about it.
And Patrick is an old pro, I bet he could live with it and I honestly think that Elizaveta needs a couple of smaller competitions before Nationals. I don't want her to miss Europeans and Worlds!

 

[alebi]

Is it so impossible to add the Bompard's skaters to the NHK with a separate free-programme competition for them? NHK has usually a strange schedule, they could add one free programme on Thursday's afternoon/evening, on at the end of the first day and the last two on Sunday and postpone the Gala a bit later in the evening. We have 2 weeks till NHK so skaters could prepare their travel and I doubt the hotels in Nagano are already totally full.

edit: I haven't considered a thing... there are skaters assigned both to TEB and NHK Well... if they agree, they could perform 3 programmes instead of 2...

 

[GF2445]

In all honesty, I still feel that using PB's is the way to go. But hey, that's just me...

Maybe, use PB's if it's their first competition and use SB's if they have competed before.
This is probably the fairest way in divisions except pairs. 6 teams within 3.43 points of each other.

 

[HanDomi]

Using PB is ridiculous idea. It's like free gift for many skaters who have huge PB's.


There are only three ways now that will be fair in this not fair situation, and can be painfull for some:
1. Final results based on SP for what was put on ice in this competition
2. inal results based on SP for what was put on ice in this competition and adding 1 or 2 more spots in GPF
3. Organizing free skates in extra session at remaining events