A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[Pamigena]

Serious question, because I have no idea how this works: What will the federations do if the ISU doesn't agree with their criteria for giving special bonus points to certain individuals based on "because that's what we want" arguments?

Seriously, nobody has an answer to this? I really want to know what kind of say the federations actually have in this matter. If the ISU says "you get the placements based on the SP or you get 0 points, end of discussion" - is there anything the federations can actually do besides ***** about it till the end of time?

 

[tulosai]

Seriously, nobody has an answer to this? I really want to know what kind of say the federations actually have in this matter. If the ISU says "you get the placements based on the SP or you get 0 points, end of discussion" - is there anything the federations can actually do besides ***** about it till the end of time?

The most damaging thing they could probably actually decide to do in theory would be to refuse to host events in their country going forward. I.e. if America, Russia, and Canada were all angry enough about this, they could basically go okay then, forget Skate America/Rostelecom/Skate Canada and any B's we may have hosted... figure out some other country to do it.

 

[ice coverage]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. You want to argue against assumptions by adding further assumptions based on past performances. I'm just saying it's an unusual circumstance that warrants unusual outcomes. I don't care how it's done but if you want to keep integrity and consistency within the TEB results then it's my opinion that you will only have this if you give the GP points based on comparing the skaters performances at this event. I'd love to see a make up FS but the only fair solution is if all skaters involved are invited. We know that scores from event to event aren't consistent so obviously just adding skaters to other events isn't realistic and creating fake scores is really just creating fake results. What other options have we?

The problem is that the TEB SP results (through no one's fault) do not have integrity within the GP series.
How to handle that lack of integrity (again, through no one's fault) is the question.

My understanding is that you are agreeable to giving Shoma 15 ranking points for TEB -- without giving some kind of accommodation to skaters such as Patrick and Max who placed lower in the SP.

If my understanding is correct, then you are making an assumption or special accommodation in Shoma's favor.

Winning an SP alone is not worth 15 ranking points, unless you are making a special accommodation for Shoma.

Otherwise, Murakami should be given 15 points for his Skate Canada SP.
And we can cancel the free skates at all future GPs.​

The only other way for Shoma to deserve 15 ranking points is to assume that he would have won TEB even if the FS had taken place. Which is a fake result.

I don't agree with picking and choosing some skaters -- but not others -- as deserving of the benefit of the doubt and special accommodations b/c of the unique circumstances.

Giving Shoma the benefit of the doubt and special accommodations is acceptable to me only if lower-placing skaters in the TEB SP also are given the benefit of the doubt and special accommodations.

 

[Mathman]

But it is very easy to poke holes in your logic:

Coulda/woulda/shoulda applies just as much to Uno, Kovtun, and Murakami if they are given full ranking points for first, second, and third -- based only on their SPs at TEB.

They would be receiving the benefit of the doubt that they would have held onto those placements after the FS. They "didna" (never heard "didna" before) actually earn the ranking points based on a full competition.

No one whatosoever from TEB can be said to have "earned the right to participate in the GPF" any more than any other skater from TEB.

No one is being given the benefit of any doubt. No one is being penalized by "doubts." No one is making any assumptions about whether one skater might have done better in the free skate than another.

The game was called after the SP by circumstances beyond the ISU's control. That's it.

It's like a baseball game that is rained out in the seventh inning. Game called. Whoever is ahead wins.

 

[el henry]

No one is being given the benefit of any doubt. No one is being penalized by "doubts." No one is making any assumptions about whether one skater might have done better in the free skate than another.

The game was called after the SP by circumstances beyond the ISU's control. That's it.

It's like a baseball game that is rained out in the seventh inning. Game called. Whoever is ahead wins.

No, the game was rained out in the third. Either it's completed, or it doesn't count.

But no one is going to convince you otherwise, and no one is going to convince me otherwise, which is why this thread is so wonderful...

Cue the Friends of Distinction:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBkYN7wYQFk

 

[TheGrandSophy]

One would think that no other skaters (Gracie, Volosozhar & Trankov, Hubbell &Donahue..) were in 1st position at the end of the short the number of times Shoma's name keeps coming up in this thread, poor love. He might have won his 1st GP gold outright if Saturday had happened, but instead he'll get dragged from this year to next if he goes to GPF and miraculously medals by people saying it doesn't count probably.

 

[Mathman]

No, the game was rained out in the third. Either it's completed, or it doesn't count.

I knew I was getting in trouble with that one.

But…but...but if it didn't count, that wouldn't be fair.

 

[noskates]

I'm kind of laughing at the title of this thread. Why would anybody make an assumption that the outcome is going to be fair????? I think no matter what the IFS does it's going to be unpopular to some segment of the skating fanbase. If they skate the whole thing over (at NO small cost I might add) and Shoma doesn't skate clean then it won't be fair to him. If they skate the whole thing over and Patrick skates clean then it also won't be fair to Shoma. And don't even get me started on Max. If he didn't do better than he did in the SP then it wouldn't be fair because he had to skate it over. I don't think there's an easy answer to this. Just sitting back and waiting to see what happens and then trudging through the fallout.

 

[tulosai]

I knew I was getting in trouble with that one.

But…but...but if it didn't count, that wouldn't be fair.

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something. Yet it appears no one thinks that's a good idea, so I'd argue everyone on the forum is to some degree influenced by some sense of fairness/what should happen beyond the most logical.

 

[el henry]

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something. Yet it appears no one thinks that's a good idea, so I'd argue everyone on the forum is to some degree influenced by some sense of fairness/what should happen beyond the most logical.

From my earlier post (184, page 13):

"I posted this in the TEB thread, but in my opinion the results should just not count."

Because I am brilliant Others seem to disagree

 

[Mrs. P]

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something. Yet it appears no one thinks that's a good idea, so I'd argue everyone on the forum is to some degree influenced by some sense of fairness/what should happen beyond the most logical.

Actually, that's my viewpoint. I opted not to share it because I figured it would be pretty unpopular.

However, there is another possible approach if you do opt to cancel TEB all together in the GPF standings. You could go back to the GPF calculation system from the early 2000s. The one that allowed Michelle Kwan to qualify for GPF based on winning one event (though she opted not to compete there). I don't know if it would work in today's system, but there is a precedent for qualifying for GPF for winning one event, so it's worth exploring.

 

[Mathman]

My understanding is that you are agreeable to giving Shoma 15 ranking points for TEB -- without giving some kind of accommodation to skaters such as Patrick and Max who placed lower in the SP.

If my understanding is correct, then you are making an assumption or special accommodation in Shoma's favor.

Winning an SP alone is not worth 15 ranking points, unless you are making a special accommodation for Shoma.

Otherwise, Murakami should be given 15 points for his Skate Canada SP…

Here is how I am looking at it. The unit that determines eligibility for the GP Final is the ordinal placement at each event. You don't make it to the final by scoring more CoP points (except for tie breakers). What you have to do to earn that placement differs from event to event. (One field is stronger than another, etc.)

To me, it is perfectly logical to declare that, for TEB, due to circumstances beyond the ISU's control and having no viable alternative, we will take the SP as determining the ordinal placements for TEB.

Shoma deserves 15 points because he won TEB.

Murakami does not deserve 15 points for State America because he did not win the event.

There is no need for making any assumptions about what Chan might or might not have have done if the event had not been curtailed, or complaining that Max Aaron had to work harder for his placement at Skate America than Gracie Gold did for her placement at TEB.

 

[Pamigena]

The most damaging thing they could probably actually decide to do in theory would be to refuse to host events in their country going forward. I.e. if America, Russia, and Canada were all angry enough about this, they could basically go okay then, forget Skate America/Rostelecom/Skate Canada and any B's we may have hosted... figure out some other country to do it.

So basically the federations with the most money could blackmail them into giving them what they want? Okay, that I understand sounds reasonably fair.

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something. Yet it appears no one thinks that's a good idea, so I'd argue everyone on the forum is to some degree influenced by some sense of fairness/what should happen beyond the most logical.

I think that's in part because the suggestion of using the SP scores for placement has been made at the same time as they announced the cancellation of the event. There doesn't seem to be a precedent for cases like this, so everyone makes up stuff as we go along. Using the SP score was the first idea, so everyone built on that. But I agree (and I think I've also posted that I think the idea shouldn't be discounted) that declaring the event null and void and giving everyone 0 points is something they should also consider. Given the current rules, they'd be within their rights.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Seriously, nobody has an answer to this? I really want to know what kind of say the federations actually have in this matter. If the ISU says "you get the placements based on the SP or you get 0 points, end of discussion" - is there anything the federations can actually do besides ***** about it till the end of time?

The most damaging thing they could probably actually decide to do in theory would be to refuse to host events in their country going forward. I.e. if America, Russia, and Canada were all angry enough about this, they could basically go okay then, forget Skate America/Rostelecom/Skate Canada and any B's we may have hosted... figure out some other country to do it.

They likely could also hold their skaters back from competing. Either through official or unofficial means. Basically a "im taking my ball and going home" approach. It just shoot themselves in the foot, but sour grapes and all.

One would think that no other skaters (Gracie, Volosozhar & Trankov, Hubbell &Donahue..) were in 1st position at the end of the short the number of times Shoma's name keeps coming up in this thread, poor love. He might have won his 1st GP gold outright if Saturday had happened, but instead he'll get dragged from this year to next if he goes to GPF and miraculously medals by people saying it doesn't count probably.

I have used Shoma somewhat for simplicity sake. H/D and V/T are much bigger head scratchers for me as this is their first event. I don't like speculating on what would have happened in the free, so guessing what will happen at Rostelecom/NHK (well other than the prediction game) is kinda not something I want to do. The ladies is a bit stranger than the mens to me as Julia did not do well at her prior event and is in second. So giving the ladies as an example kinda opens the doors to more debate and what if. The men are a bit cleaner for some examples in my eyes if you want to keep a limited scope.

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something. Yet it appears no one thinks that's a good idea, so I'd argue everyone on the forum is to some degree influenced by some sense of fairness/what should happen beyond the most logical.

Actually there have been comments to this effect. Many of them have gotten shut down enough to feel very much in the minority. I don't think this option should be ruled out. In fact I posted a question about rules about completion earlier on in part because I would like to get a better idea of what they are and if sadly scraping the whole thing is the way to go.

 

[ice coverage]

No one is being given the benefit of any doubt. No one is being penalized by "doubts." No one is making any assumptions about whether one skater might have done better in the free skate than another.

The game was called after the SP by circumstances beyond the ISU's control. That's it.

It's like a baseball game that is rained out in the seventh inning. Game called. Whoever is ahead wins.

The ISU obviously does not agree that the matter of TEB is as simple as you think it is.

Over 48 hours have passed since the cancellation of the free skates, and the ISU has not announced its decision about GPF qualification.

---

One would think that no other skaters (Gracie, Volosozhar & Trankov, Hubbell &Donahue..) were in 1st position at the end of the short the number of times Shoma's name keeps coming up in this thread, poor love. He might have won his 1st GP gold outright if Saturday had happened, but instead he'll get dragged from this year to next if he goes to GPF and miraculously medals by people saying it doesn't count probably.

The men happen to be my favorite discipline.

None of this controversy is Shoma's fault, of course. None of it is Patrick's fault or Max's fault, either.

If Shoma had placed fourth in the SP at TEB, as he did at Skate America, I have no doubt that many GS posts would be framed from the perspective of concern that Shoma get a fair shake at qualifying for the GPF.

 

[chuckm]

I'm not convinced that Chan at TEB would have given the same FS performance and gotten the same score he did at SC, because he wouldn't have had the adoring crowd he had in Canada and therefore the pressure on him would have been much greater. Not only that, but he had two men ahead of him with much higher SP scores than the men at SC, and he himself had a lower score than he'd had in Canada.

IMO, Shoma had a good chance to pull off the win, and Chan would have skated well enough in the FS to make the final.

Kovtun might have done OK in the FS (or not) as he is inconsistent, but he will skate again at NHK against Hanyu, Jin and Brown. Interesting.

I'm not sure about how well Aaron would have done in the FS as he can be quite inconsistent, too.

If some skaters are given a chance to compete the TEB FS, I would agree that Tuktamysheva, Chan and Aaron should get that chance because they had a previous podium finish high enough for the GPF.

I do not think that Gilles/Poirier, who now have two podium finishes but want to skate a FD to get a GPF guarantee, are in the same category. I would think that if G/P were allowed to skate the FD, then Hubbell / Donohue should be allowed to do so as well to retain their gold status.

 

[Mathman]

I'm actually surprised that no one seems to be arguing that the event just shouldn't count, even those on the forum who I think of as generally being complete rules purists who in every other circumstance ever argue for the rules. In a technical sense, as the rule book is written now, it would appear that both programs have to be completed to count. This is the most logical interpretation in the absence of explicit text saying something...

I don't agree that a silent rule book implies logically that "both programs have to be completed to count." The ISU rule book explicitly provides for contests in which only one program is contested, either an LP alone or an SP alone.

True, it would have been better if the ISU had anticipated this possibility before it happened, but you can't think of everything.

 

[Pamigena]

They likely could also hold their skaters back from competing. Either through official or unofficial means. Basically a "im taking my ball and going home" approach. It just shoot themselves in the foot, but sour grapes and all.

ah, so it's blackmail and empty threats gotta love politics

 

[4everchan]

whatever you think about Chan remains unproven... People love him at TEB too... for many reasons, including his courteous interviews in French.

people keep forgetting that chan, with his 22 points and 1st place, is very close to qualify on his own... without any boost ...

and not only that, but let's say that he had remained lower in the standings, but just coming up one or two spots... he would have been automatically qualified... it's not an all or nothing

I'm not convinced that Chan at TEB would have given the same FS performance and gotten the same score he did at SC, because he wouldn't have had the adoring crowd he had in Canada and therefore the pressure on him would have been much greater. Not only that, but he had two men ahead of him with much higher SP scores than the men at SC, and he himself had a lower score than he'd had in Canada.

IMO, Shoma had a good chance to pull off the win, and Chan would have skated well enough in the FS to make the final.

Kovtun might have done OK in the FS (or not) as he is inconsistent, but he will skate again at NHK against Hanyu, Jin and Brown. Interesting.

I'm not sure about how well Aaron would have done in the FS as he can be quite inconsistent, too.

If some skaters are given a chance to compete the TEB FS, I would agree that Tuktamysheva, Chan and Aaron should get that chance because they had a previous podium finish high enough for the GPF.

I do not think that Gilles/Poirier, who now have two podium finishes but want to skate a FD to get a GPF guarantee, are in the same category.

 

[Pamigena]

I don't agree that a silent rule book implies logically that "both programs have to be completed to count." The ISU rule book explicitly provides for contests in which only one program is contested, either an LP alone or an SP alone.

Maybe, but those would be separate contests. TEB is part of the GP series and would therefore have to adhere to the same rules that apply to all the other qualifying events, wouldn't it? As far as I know, those say that skaters have to complete 2 programs. And if there were a GP rule for skaters who only completed 1 program per GP event, then we wouldn't be having this argument.
(There are rules for the GP series, right? It's something I now just assumed in my youthful ignorance)