A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[moriel]

I was speaking of
"We cannot give preference to someone who might have done something, over someone who actually did it. "
If we are kind to TEB skaters and rank them according to SP standings, we may give preference to someone who skated less over someone who skated more.
Example, in Liza and Rika's case, now that they are tied, we give preference to Rika because she skated 2 LPs on the tiebreaker. I'm sure this will add like 5 pages to the tread =)

But, the unfairest thing of all, is ISU just not deciding on whatever is going on.
I wonder if they are waiting for enough people to WD so it stops being a problem.

 

[Mathman]

If we are kind to TEB skaters and rank them according to SP standings, we may give preference to someone who skated less over someone who skated more.

Oh, OK. I misuderstood what you were saying before. Please ignore my long song and dance above.

I guees "being nice" can never be fair. You always end up being nicer to one person than to another.

 

[NorthernDancers]

Without reading all 62 pages of this thread (I apologize if someone has brought this up previously), is it possible that the ISU is going to wait until after NHK next week to make a decision? Taking TEB results out entirely, they could be waiting to see who absolutely qualified based on the other GP event results, and then the conversation is cleaner and easier, since it can be focused only on those skaters that might have qualified had the TEB competition been completed. They could be talking to the federations representing the small number of athletes likely to be impacted, working with the GPF event organization and Spanish fed in the background, and then announcing a decision once NHK is done. Figure out who qualified based on 2 completed competitions. Then look at how the TEB skaters finished in their 1 full complete competition, considering how the skater scored in SP at TEB but also looking at LP history this season. Then there's no more "what if", "if this and that happens", etc. It will be a more focused and a shorter conversation as to who is truly "on the bubble".

 

[blancanieves]

This news has been around since yesterday, but no official confirmation yet, so at this point I think it's (still) just speculation.

What it's certain is that they have updated skaters bio with COR results, they have updated ws and some skaters bio with TEB sp results, they have NOT updated the standings towards GPF, nor for TEB nor for COR.

I think the ISU is waiting to update the GPF standings charts until every TEB skater has at least 1 full set of scores (short and free) to be entered. The order of the standings gets listed according to, both, placement points and score tie breaks.

In Ice Dance, for example, Co/Bu, S/B and H/D won't have one full set of scores (SD and FD) until they compete at NHK. We won't know where in the chart to insert them until they receive FD scores at NHK.

 

[4everchan]

yup... and they want to see who would get in with teb sp rankings.. if they like it, they will just use that imo

I think the ISU is waiting to update the GPF standings charts until every TEB skater has at least 1 full set of scores (short and free) to be entered. The order of the standings gets listed according to, both, placement points and score tie breaks.

In Ice Dance, for example, Co/Bu, S/B and H/D won't have one full set of scores (SD and FD) until they compete at NHK. We won't know where in the chart to insert them until they receive FD scores at NHK.

 

[Mathman]

Without reading all 62 pages of this thread (I apologize if someone has brought this up previously), is it possible that the ISU is going to wait until after NHK next week to make a decision? Taking TEB results out entirely, they could be waiting to see who absolutely qualified based on the other GP event results, and then the conversation is cleaner and easier, since it can be focused only on those skaters that might have qualified had the TEB competition been completed. They could be talking to the federations representing the small number of athletes likely to be impacted, working with the GPF event organization and Spanish fed in the background, and then announcing a decision once NHK is done. Figure out who qualified based on 2 completed competitions. Then look at how the TEB skaters finished in their 1 full complete competition, considering how the skater scored in SP at TEB but also looking at LP history this season. Then there's no more "what if", "if this and that happens", etc. It will be a more focused and a shorter conversation as to who is truly "on the bubble".

It does look more and more like this is the ISU's plan. I don't think it is a good one, however. I think that in so far as possible you should set the rules for victory first, and then play the games. It seems wrong and backward to play the games first and then go back and invent some ad hoc "rules" about how the winners are to be determined.

The objective rules for what is required to qualify for the GP final should not depend, after the fact, on who is on the bubble and who isn't. (JMO)

 

[NorthernDancers]

It does look more and more like this is the ISU's plan. I don't think it is a good one, however. I think that in so far as possible you should set the rules for victory first, and then play the games. It seems wrong and backward to play the games first and then go back and invent some ad hoc "rules" about how the winners are to be determined.

The objective rules for what is required to qualify for the GP final should not depend, after the fact, on who is on the bubble and who isn't. (JMO)

I agree with that in principle. As far as possible, the rules should be set before the season begins. But the season was already half over before this extra-ordinary situation took place. And the rules had not contemplated a situation where only half the competition would be possible. So anything done now is "making it up as they go along". And as evidenced by 62 pages of comments, nothing is ever going to be seen to be fully "fair", or please everyone. So the ISU seems to be interested in offending the least number of people. The easiest way to do that is to see where everyone stands at the end of NHK. The less decisions they have to make, the better. See how many entries into GPF are decided just on the 5 competitions. Then look at who had a reasonable chance of medaling in TEB based on SP scores as well as the complete event and perhaps some other competitions this season, and the list of possible additions to the GPF should be a lot shorter, and easier to defend for those who want to disagree with the decision. Post season, I'm guessing there will be some discussions and then a policy amendment about how competition scores will be handled where only 1 portion of the competition is possible.

 

[blancanieves]

yup... and they want to see who would get in with teb sp rankings.. if they like it, they will just use that imo

Far from me to think of the ISU as saints, but I see no games being played.

The short program results yielded the medalists of TEB, and the disbursement of corresponding World Standing points. The GPF standings is a separate issue.

Placement points alone don't supply enough information to update the GPF standings chart. Free Program scores are needed to calculate the standings in that chart. Only after the completion of NHK, will all TEB participants have Free Program scores. Once that information is entered, and the tiebreak protocol is applied, the resulting top 6 will be evident. That's not the problem.

The problem is that some TEB skaters may miss the top 6 because of a tiebreaker where not having 2 Free Program scores put them at a disadvantage.

Since the TEB skaters did not withdraw from the competition, but the competition "walked out on them," the ISU is trying to avoid a circumstance where those skaters are "punished" for something that was out of their hands.

The proposal to add 1 TEB skater (who missed the top 6 because of tiebreaks) to each discipline at the Final could be a good solution. I'd guess that the delay in making an official announcement has more to do with figuring out budget aspects of reorganizing the Final.

 

[koatcue]

If Liza had skated at CoR, she wouldn't have made the podium against those other Russian girls. She would have buried herself after the SP and there wouldn't be any redemption with her FS because they'd outscore her there, too. And that's what she's facing at Russian Nationals if she can't get herself in gear. Never mind making the GPF or winning Worlds, she might not even GET to Worlds.

Liza would have been 3d, if we take SC results

 

[Lys]

No news that I'm aware of on isu front, but GPF website lists these skaters as officially qualified (adding COR points, no indication for TEB).
http://www.gpfbarcelona2015.com/es/area-medios/noticias-y-actualidad/noticias-y-actualidad/?tx_news_pi1[news]=165&cHash=6f5764e370c945bbd9d8fcfd31464a4c

 

[Moxiejan]

I am now going to do a 180 on my previous "solution" (to count TEB and add a few extras). Why? Because I think if there was any inclination by ISU to have TEB points awarded on the short program, the Grand Prix standings already would have been updated with both TEB and CoR. Since we know these results have been added for overall world standings and to skaters' bios, there clearly has been a decision to NOT count TEB and to wait until after NHK to update the standings, using an amended system that (IMHO) rewards the series' Top 6-7 using the BEST ONE event (either in placement or score).

I think what might happen is "auto invites" for anyone who has won an event (the old system & now the first tiebreaker).

In the men, that would put in Javi, Patrick and Max. The other 3-4 would be the winner of NHK, plus (among those not already in) the top scores in their best one event. This would likely put in Hanyu and Jin, with a battle for the last 1-2 spots among Uno, Kovtun, Hochstein and even Dornbush. (The one most disadvantaged would be Murakami, with a 3rd in one event and no chance to improve on the 3rd he'd had at TEB and/or overall score.)

In the women, that would put in Evgenia, Ashley, Mao, Elena and the NHK winner, if not Mao or Ashley. So, 2-3 more spots based on best one total score; that would likely add Gracie and put Rika ahead of Elizaveta. Miyahara (and even Anna or Courtney H.) could get in with a big NHK score or a 1st place.

Obviously, there is no way that ISU could announce anything like this at this point, because it could completely alter competitive strategies for NHK. Since the skaters don't know what will be done, they all still need to skate all-out.

 

[4everchan]

Far from me to think of the ISU as saints, but I see no games being played.

The short program results yielded the medalists of TEB, and the disbursement of corresponding World Standing points. The GPF standings is a separate issue.

Placement points alone don't supply enough information to update the GPF standings chart. Free Program scores are needed to calculate the standings in that chart. Only after the completion of NHK, will all TEB participants have Free Program scores. Once that information is entered, and the tiebreak protocol is applied, the resulting top 6 will be evident. That's not the problem.

The problem is that some TEB skaters may miss the top 6 because of a tiebreaker where not having 2 Free Program scores put them at a disadvantage.

Since the TEB skaters did not withdraw from the competition, but the competition "walked out on them," the ISU is trying to avoid a circumstance where those skaters are "punished" for something that was out of their hands.

The proposal to add 1 TEB skater (who missed the top 6 because of tiebreaks) to each discipline at the Final could be a good solution. I'd guess that the delay in making an official announcement has more to do with figuring out budget aspects of reorganizing the Final.

the first tie-breaker is always the medal... so award these points officially if that's the intention (for instance for H/D.. who haven't skated a FD yet) ... and then let the GPs unfold as normal... that way, skaters could at least see if they still have a chance... for instance, Chan, with what happened at CoR and since JB is out, would be in... but now, he doesn't know for sure...

for G/P, it's another story... would they qualify with 24 points? they are behind S/K already, and H/D would win as they have a first place, which is the first tie breaker... (if they are as well at 24 points after NHK)....

So, if the ISU has the intention at looking at let's say FD totals from SA for GP to see if they are potentially higher ranked than H/D, and then add them, they should be upfront about it now... G/P, for now, do not look like they would qualify, and have to wait for weeks .... it's unfair to the skaters to not being told what the plan is... if ISU, as you are saying is looking at logistics, budgets, and what not, the skaters and their teams have to do the same.... that's why I feel that the ISU is not ready to be open about what they will be doing.... for whatever reason... and I think it's wrong... IMO

 

[Jaana]

No news that I'm aware of on isu front, but GPF website lists these skaters as officially qualified (adding COR points, no indication for TEB).
http://www.gpfbarcelona2015.com/es/area-medios/noticias-y-actualidad/noticias-y-actualidad/?tx_news_pi1[news]=165&cHash=6f5764e370c945bbd9d8fcfd31464a4c

My Spanish is very weak, but I understand from this that there would be Fernandez and 7 other competitors e.g. in men:

El madrileño es el primer deportista en categoría Masculina en lograrlo y se une así a otros 7 competidores que a falta de NHK Trophy y de la resolución del Eric Bompard ya tienen plaza asegurada para la primera gran cita del año.


Maybe I missunderstood?

 

[Lys]

My Spanish is very weak, but I understand from this that there would be Fernandez and 7 other competitors e.g. in men:

El madrileño es el primer deportista en categoría Masculina en lograrlo y se une así a otros 7 competidores que a falta de NHK Trophy y de la resolución del Eric Bompard ya tienen plaza asegurada para la primera gran cita del año.


Maybe I missunderstood?

Spanish is not my language either, but my understanding is Javi is one of the 8 already confirmed skaters/couples qualified for GPF across all disciplines. It's not speaking about 8 spots per event, but just about 8 spots already booked across all events.

 

[ice coverage]

... The short program results yielded the medalists of TEB ...

Off topic for the discussion of GPF qualification ... but I "stubbornly" :dev2: will note that the ISU has not recognized those who placed highest in the TEB SPs/SD as "medalists." (Not yet, at least.)

A less pressing issue than GPF qualifying -- but a separate bridge that the ISU eventually will have to cross.

We do not know yet how the ISU will treat the 2015 TEB SP/SD results for historical purposes. Examples:

Will the ISU ever refer to Hubbell/Donohue as TEB "champions"?
Will James/Cipres be entitled to say that they won their first GP "medal" at 2015 TEB? Or only that they placed second in the 2015 TEB SP?​

We have not seen a 2015 TEB medal around anyone's neck. (And we do not know whether the prize money has been awarded.)
Again, a separate issue from GPF qualifying. Separate also from World Standings points. Separate, and unresolved.

 

[FS_rrb]

Spanish is my first language, and I understand that Javi is one of the 8 skaters/pairs which have already earned a spot in the final, taking all categories into account. Nevertheless, the possible misunderstanding has nothing to do with the language but with the way the sentence is written.

 

[el henry]

I know what I think is right, and I've said it a million times, so I won't repeat it.

Predicting what these granola-for-brains at the ISU are doing, or not doing, based on website refreshing is like reading tarot cards.

I beleive they are waiting to see if the GPF results after NHK will "save" them from real decisions. But, sheesh, what cowards! I mean, it happens commonly in law, for cases tried to the bench: the judge wants a certain result, and backs into it using whatever means (law, facts, polemics) support his or her conclusion. But I had higher hopes for sport, even for figure skating. My mistake.

 

[rain]

Now we are finished with logic and finished with fair play. We turn to the last question, do we want to give an unearned break to skaters from whom fickle fate snatched a hope-filled opportunity?

Sure we do! We are all logical here, and we may differ on the issue of what constitutes fair play, but we are not big meanies. We should add on a few extra spots for the most deserving of the unlucky. :yes:

I think this is what will happen. They will extend the number of entries to get in the people they want who would not otherwise qualify on the basis of the SP results AND those who would unexpectedly qualify on the basis of the SP results from TEB.

It can't be overlooked that they absolutely DO want certain skaters to be there, which is actually completely logical. The idea behind the GPF after all was to give the top skaters another chance to compete against each other before worlds. If they don't have at least most of the top skaters there (there are always some missing due to injury etc.) the event becomes largely irrelevant, and they definitely don't want that to happen.

 

[blancanieves]

the first tie-breaker is always the medal... so award these points officially if that's the intention (for instance for H/D.. who haven't skated a FD yet) ... and then let the GPs unfold as normal... that way, skaters could at least see if they still have a chance... for instance, Chan, with what happened at CoR and since JB is out, would be in... but now, he doesn't know for sure...

for G/P, it's another story... would they qualify with 24 points? they are behind S/K already, and H/D would win as they have a first place, which is the first tie breaker... (if they are as well at 24 points after NHK)....

So, if the ISU has the intention at looking at let's say FD totals from SA for GP to see if they are potentially higher ranked than H/D, and then add them, they should be upfront about it now... G/P, for now, do not look like they would qualify, and have to wait for weeks .... it's unfair to the skaters to not being told what the plan is... if ISU, as you are saying is looking at logistics, budgets, and what not, the skaters and their teams have to do the same.... that's why I feel that the ISU is not ready to be open about what they will be doing.... for whatever reason... and I think it's wrong... IMO

Things are basically unfolding as normal. The ISU doesn't award "temporary" WS points. G/P got their 360 WS points because they came in 2nd at TEB, so they also got their 13 GPF qualifying points.

They know they have 24 pts. for their 3rd place at SA and 2nd place at TEB, and that they'll be involved in a tie-breaker with other teams that end up with 24 pts. Since there's been no report of a proposal (or need) to change how the current tie-breakers work, the highest Combined Total Score (sum of the 2 GP Total Scores) should determine who qualifies.

So, on the one hand G/P could definitely benefit from the proposed "extra GPF spot" because their Combined Total Score is compromised by having only 1 GP Total Score (FD + SD) and 1 SD score, instead of 2 GP Total Scores. But, on the other hand G/P won't know for certain if they need that extra spot until B/S, who came in 3rd at SC, finish competing at NHK, and they see whether that team's placement and score will factor into their tie-break.

In any given year, any skater may not know if they qualify for the Final until the results of the last event of the GP series (NHK). That isn't out of the ordinary. So, as long as the ISU makes an announcement about extra GPF spots for TEB skaters by then, it will fall within reasonable parameters.

 

[4everchan]

Things are basically unfolding as normal. The ISU doesn't award "temporary" WS points. G/P got their 360 WS points because they came in 2nd at TEB, so they also got their 13 GPF qualifying points.

They know they have 24 pts. for their 3rd place at SA and 2nd place at TEB, and that they'll be involved in a tie-breaker with other teams that end up with 24 pts. Since there's been no report of a proposal (or need) to change how the current tie-breakers work, the highest Combined Total Score (sum of the 2 GP Total Scores) should determine who qualifies.

So, on the one hand G/P could definitely benefit from the proposed "extra GPF spot" because their Combined Total Score is compromised by having only 1 GP Total Score (FD + SD) and 1 SD score, instead of 2 GP Total Scores. But, on the other hand G/P won't know for certain if they need that extra spot until B/S, who came in 3rd at SC, finish competing at NHK, and they see whether that team's placement and score will factor into their tie-break.

In any given year, any skater may not know if they qualify for the Final until the results of the last event of the GP series (NHK). That isn't out of the ordinary. So, as long as the ISU makes an announcement about extra GPF spots for TEB skaters by then, it will fall within reasonable parameters.

ermmm... i agree and cannot agree with you here.

before NHK... usually, many skaters know that they are done... they have known sometimes for 2-3 weeks...

in this case, nobody really knows...

and as a former athlete, all i can say is that athletes need to know when they are competing in order to get ready physically and mentally for it... i find it very disrespectful from the ISU not to be clearer about what's going to happen... whatever it is, whether it includes more or less skaters, they need to know what is about to happen...

in previous years, skaters would at least have a clue about their chances... right now? TEB skaters have no real clue. very unfair IMHO