Any predictions for Europeans?

[Kinga]

My two cents: I hope Sarah Meier comes back strong, and will be a podium spoiler! It looks like everyone wrote her off...

 

[Nadine]

I don't have any predictions, just hopes! And my hopes are that Brian Joubert does well, and Adrian Schultheiss, whom really seems to be in a funk lately, hopefully he'll pull himself up at Euros.

Ah, and also I can't help comparing this year's Europeans to last year's, where I was literally a wreck emotionally. Lol, I recall constantly checking the thread and being overjoyed when I found out Zhenya had won!!!! It was my second happiest moment last year, Rostelecom Cup being my most happiest! Joy JOy JOY! :yay:

 

[Nadine]

p.s. and of course how can I forget Carolina, I hope for gazelle to do good as well.

 

[evangeline]

I know Voloshozhar and Trankov (I guess you meant him?), their performance at Russian Nationals was exquisite, and if they nail everything, S/S better watch out. Actually, they already look better than S/S when it comes to lifts, positions, etc. Maxim is a better skater than Robin, Tatiana is equally good as Aliona (if not better) and together they are a perfect match. But anyway, this is a discussion for a thread before Worlds.

The difference between S/S and V/T, at least this season, is that S/S actually have real programs. V/T's programs are basically connect-the-dot-style with elements strung together plus some music playing in the background. Don't get me wrong, I like V/T but they need more time to gel together, to be comfortable enough with each other to skate more complex programs with a real point of view.

These things will come in time for V/T and I think they will make great rivals for S/S in the future. But now? If S/S skate halfway decently, they will (and should) win.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

I agree with evangeline pretty much completely. That said, the quality of many of V/T's elements is so superb, they've got gorgeous line, and they themselves are beautiful, so I can definitely see why people think they can challenge S/S. But right now, I think S/S are clearly revitalized and over their Olympic season disappointment and are clearly above the rest.

 

[Kinga]

The difference between S/S and V/T, at least this season, is that S/S actually have real programs. V/T's programs are basically connect-the-dot-style with elements strung together plus some music playing in the background. Don't get me wrong, I like V/T but they need more time to gel together, to be comfortable enough with each other to skate more complex programs with a real point of view.

These things will come in time for V/T and I think they will make great rivals for S/S in the future. But now? If S/S skate halfway decently, they will (and should) win.

Oh, of course I agree that in terms of 'artistic' value of the program V/T are not there yet and need to 'gel', so the next season they can show something more captivating and mature. However, I disagree that if S/S make mistakes and V/T nail everything, S/S should win, even if they have 'real programs'. At the end, V/T programs are not that bad and the technical content (if performed cleaned) should make up for that. If not, why just not mixed dance and pairs together, then I am pretty sure all dance teams will be ahead, because they for sure have more 'real programs'.

I predict the pair event will be the most interresting. V/T surprise me a lot but I have a feeling they will have at least one inconsistent performance either at here in the European or World. It is only my strange feeling for the competition. It can turn out completely diferrent. I realy like kavaguti/Smirnov a lot better than V/T (at least in term of the composition program) so I think they can do well too. Savchenko/Szolkovy is unknown because they have a lot of inconsistencies in previous years but now look great.

V/T are not going to Europeans. Sorry that our OT discussion about pairs in general confused you.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Oh and about the whole "Canton quartet this, Canton quartet that". Give me the break. It will come the terrible day when Davis/White will be World Champions gold team then you be happy ( See, I will not suck up to a team just to have solidarity on my side. I state my honest opinion). Ice Dancing is hopefully with fresh faces start to get back to the root, the basic dancing like it used to be: showing good dance and skating technique, style , composition ALONG WITH the artistry :It will hopefully develop now in the right direction with these other teams. The proper way

Too bad that most of the European teams don't have that. It will be thrilling to watch the high level difficulty of the Canton quartet devour the shallowness of Pechelat/Bourzat, the one-note emotive of Faella (though Scali's great), the technical infelicities of the Kerrs. I'd love to see everything in one package (and I do think Virtue/Moir do have everything). The proper way involves both athleticism and performance. If you don't believe that, shrug.....

 

[andofan]

For the men, I'm going with 1) Joubert, 2) Amodio, 3) Brezina

 

[dorispulaski]

chillyfranz, I beg to differ: if it were so easy to do the things D&W can do & do them better, there would be many teams who want to win who would be doing those things. I doubt that there are hordes of athletes who compete to lose because of their artistic integrity.

For example Bobrova & Soloviev & the Kerrs: if the two teams could be consistent on their twizzles, I'm sure they would be.

If Faiella & Scali could manage a pair spin from a back entry with good speed, I'm sure they would do it. And if Scali could manage a complex lift, he'd do it, but unfortunately they are too nearly the same size to have as wide a variety of lifts that V&M and D&W have. And if they had the speed & edging of D&W, they'd use it.

Those teams have their own great qualities, and D&W and V&M have their weak points, but it is silly to claim that the European teams lose because of their artistic integrity. They lose because that's how the rules are today-they favor the things D&W and V&M do well, and do not value as much the things the European teams do well.

It is possible to have the rules changed. If you feel the current set of rules do not favor good dancers, you should lobby your federation to push to have the rules changed.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Davis/White: this is funny. They give more shallow artistic impression than any one else.
You watch D/W and V/M performances everyday, 15 times a day, no ? Compared to only the other teams you only watch when they compete to nitpick on their flaws.
But good luck if you think that way.

And BTW< it is not difficult to do what Davis/White have approached to do. Other teams can shoot to the top just like them, but why they don't? Because they DON"T WANT to do the cheap way of skating tricks and compositions. It's the same with V/M's composition- just make a choreography with only showing element and loose transitions to show judges you can hit all the bullet. This mean choreographing under the new system. Not that it is totaly bad because the couples win and that is important to them. Why the newer faces don't shoot up so fast? Because their composition and approach to dance is complete, harmony, they are taking the high road, not the cheap road.

But in the serious manner, D/W being a silver medalist team tells just the pedigree of ice dance is now . If they can, anyone can.

And the "one note emotive" of Federica you mention was once use to describe Tessa Virtue.

Sorry if this is offnesive but I have a feeling Samuelson/Bates only go to Marina and Igor to fast-track there way to gold after seeing the results of their Olympiad

Simply put, the newer faces (the teams you don't want to like) choose to NOT just let their programs boil down to elements and lifts. Maybe doing it will not let them fast track there success in 3 short years but in the long run they will earn more respect than just getting remember for a Olympic medal and World medal

1. Sigh.

2. Okay. If you've read my comments in the past, you know I've been harder on D/W than I have on V/M. You would know that I've mentioned that they lack a specific connection to each other that would make them a transcendent team.

3. If you've read my comments in the past, you would know that I myself have called Tessa out on her expressive capabilities, particularly in the beginning of the 09/10 season where she seemed to only find a couple of shadings in "Mahler" (compared to Scott who is easily the most expressive male dancer current performing), and was so pleased that she found some more shadings to the romantic joy. The purity of their skating is remarkable

4. So, refresher. I though Faella/Scali's FD last season was second only to V/M's. I would rank D/W's FD behind a good number of teams in terms of choreographic depth. I was particularly impressed with the mirrored construction with the straight line lifts, the way the spin was placed and performed, and Scali's expressive capabilities are virtually peerless. If I call Faella out, it's because she doesn't find the nuances he does.

My third favourite free dance of last season was Cappelini/Lannotte's "Requiem for a Dream" number. I loved the way they wove the theme (drug addiction: she's the drug/he's the addict) throughout, and how they made Anna both highly alluring (that smile she gives during the straightline lift contains more expression than I've seen Faella come up with) and a little repulsive (note - not really, since she's the most attractive woman since Helen of Troy, but the gothic thing is not for everyone) was just awesome.

I would love to hear why you think Virtue/Moir's free program was less artistic than Pechelat/Bourzat, The Kerrs, or any number of teams you prefer. Also if you could explain how D/W lacked artistry in their incredibly nuanced OD as compared to any European team from last season, I'd appreciate that as well. I could go on-and-on about the way V/M conjure magic in motion, dazzle with poise and elegance. I could discuss how every second of that dance is just a work of art. I could point out that the spunk and enthusiasm D/W demonstrate with their Indian OD is absolutely endearing. I could mention that their Non-Midline-Touching Step Sequence is simply divine - articulated with details that both highlight technical difficulty and elucidate the music.

5. I find it startling to hear you say that the full bretheren of non-Canton teams are ignoring technical difficulty in favour of artistic integrity. Here I thought Bobrova/Soloviev didn't mean to screw up on the twizzles, but you're saying that their artistry trumps such concerns. Here I thought a team like the Kerrs struggled technically, but I thank you for informing me that the vision of their programs trump technical difficulty.

6. You seem to want a regression to where the form was virtually meaningless. Sorry if that offends you, but there's a reason longtime skating fans like janetfan still have a hard time taking dance seriously.

 

[blue_idealist]

I don't get why people are saying the Canton teams don't have artistic expression and only focus on elements. If that was true, all their programs would look the same and they all have very different programs with different 'character'.

 

[evangeline]

very long post #36

Although I rather like Canton quartet, I think chillyfranz has a point when he notes how CoP ice dance has changed. Sometimes it does seem like CoP ice dance is all about twizzles and performing lifts with a stopwatch.

 

[dorispulaski]

I don't think that there is any question about COP having changed dance. Like all changes, IMO, some are for the good, and some for the not so good.

However, as to transitions: last year's version of the rules gave very few positive points for transitions, and had negative points for mistakes during transitions. It's not surprising that you saw less transitions done by the skaters last year. Early versions of COP at least didn't have penalties without rewards for transitions (especially given that having an inadequate number of transitions doesn't cost more than .5 because of the way PCS scores are given all in a big block of nearly identical numbers.)

Both V&M and D&W have added more transitions to their FD's this year, because both teams have said in interviews that the sport needs them. I think this is an evolving area of COP.

I don't like the stopwatch thing for the lifts at all. It's amazing how well most all the dancers in general do with this though. It's becoming less and less distracting, as they have become acclimated to these timing rules.

And another thing about the Canton teams: in general, they have arrived at their first competition actually prepared, as well as they were able to be prepared, given physical issues. This is something P&B have only done this year, F&S surely didn't do this year, and the Kerrs better this year than in the past, but still some way to go. F&S should have definitely practiced more in those costumes before CoC, for sure.

This was the first year D&W didn't arrive at their first competition in their best shape (other than 2007/2008 when they had an injury in August)=they said they had about a 6 week delay in training due to SOI ending late, and needing a rest before starting over.

 

[Big Deal]

I think that it is difficult to say that the FD of Virtue/Moir has no artistry
Davis/White really has no inner connection, they are acrobatic show dancers. Their FD this year is a trial to change it a little bit with the "not-showy", technically difficult Tango program, where they failed to show the necessary connection and feeling until this time, even if the technical difficulty is there ( a little bit ala Kokhlova-Novitski in the past).

The program of Pechalat/Bourzat is very "Russian-like"this year in term of historical choreography of ice dancing, charming, but NOT genuine emotions are involved. The same kind of Show dance like Davis/Whites's but in a different "Russian" way (even if both P/B and D/W has Russian coaches).

The "timeless eternity" is not there, but i IS there when V/M dancing on the ice.

Anyway, most of these teams are not competing in the Europeans, this thread is not in the right place here

About the Europeanchampionships:
I think that Pechalat/Bourzat has find the way to the judges and spectator's heart, they can win.
Faiella/Scali's technique is far superior to any of the recent European team, but their coach and choreographer need to find the way to reach the people's heart to be more succesful. I think the result will Show the lack of Linichuk's influence in Russia, compare to Zhulin's one.

Bobrova/Soloviev doesn't seem to be a couple which can be the No 1. Russian couple for a long time. Some of the other teams will catch this position soon (maybe right now, and quite surprisingly it can be Riazanova-Tkachenko). This competition is also to decide the future and the rankig of the Russian teams. They desperately want to (have to !!) find the best to create a big star of them as soon s possible. They hoped to make it by Ilynikh/Katsapalov, but they seem to slow down quite a bit in their technical improvement ( to say the less). So, maybe Riazanova-Tkachenko? They are very interested in to check the International reaction about their 3 couples. It seems like also the Russian Federation didn't really and definitely decided which couple to support the most.

I quite like to put the Hoffman/Zhavozin assembly to this mix. Their FD is really innovative, unusual, modern, and (if they can menage that) technically challenging this year, showing a LOTS OF potential and artistry. They can put themselves on or close to the podium .

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

Now I know I having a conversation with the Bourne/Kraatz fan

Not really. When I was younger and less knowledgeable, I did assume they were robbed. Having seen them now, I can't say they were ever robbed. Certainly not by Grishuk/Platov - who were amazing. Not by Anissina/Peizarat or Krylova/Osiannikov (I can never spell his name) who I quite liked (and even enjoyed the jungle FD that no one else did).

In the typical Westerner fashion programming the mind with advocation of Tracey Wilson to belive dance of the past decade is rigged with wronged results who gave wrong medals to only the evil dealing countries. Now I know where you coming from

So all medals earned have been completely deserved?

Believe or not, and I don't have expectation you do, but dancers of the past, the champions, I talk 10, 15, 20 years ago, were great dancers. The Westerner persepective is cultured to see only these dancers as the dramatic theatrical funnies who have susipicious technical ability because these westerners only choose to see what they want to mock in so-called funnies. Mock them or not, they had technique and complete programs. Westerners were inspired by lots of the Soviet, British dancers who make the way for them to step on. You know, I read Tracey Wilson's google interview. She say Natalia Bestemianova was her idol and one of the best skater/ice dancer ever who had everything : technique, athleticism, expression and a dancer to the truest spirit . That probably surprise you a lot

I always prefered Klimova/Ponamarenko to Bestemianova/Bukin, to be honest. But I haven't seen enough B/B to really be fair.

Let me start to saying what I DON"T want ice dancing to be: my dread is that ice dance look completely differeent now than 10 . 15, year ago. And I mean different, I mean a completely different discipline. Instead of dance we see program by element by lift . Simply, it all boils down to element and lifts. Transitions are braught to the side like a side dish .Let's intersparse a few here and over there because the rule say we have to have this many in the program. Then, time it so 4 mins, 30 sec have elapsed and we have put as many of these as we posisbly can with-in this time frame. Although, to be fair, iSU is apportioned to blame

You know, what I love about ice dancing now is that the disjunction "elements" and "transitions" are virtually meaningless in terms of measure of artistry and athleticism. Everything can be both. So Virtue/Moir's crazy lifts? Also gorgeous artistically.

I want to see ice dancing today go forward , that is, have the dancers push the limits (technique, steps, lifts ) but still respect what the sport is/was/use to be. Let me illustriate: Ursula/Lolita do crazy lifts (which is great, no problem) but the rest of the program to be in the same vein- element, element, element, crazy lift, crazy lift, crazy lift . Crazy lifts are great and is need them to get points which is understand in the new system. But if the completeness, harmony, balance in the program is not there (which D/W and V/M are classic example) then it is becoming not dance but program by elements. Also, I think having a dance composition is more harder for the dancers than having the now program by element: this will make the dancers be aware of the structure they dance to, how the dance elements fit in with the concept and be this will be feel more organic to the real dancers. For the not-real dancers, or those who have no wish to be ice dancers but ice acrobats, then those program by elements are suit for them.

Now I don't even think you know what "completeness, harmony and balace" means - or certainly not in the way I do. But anyway, agree to disagree with this one simply because I really don't have any understanding of what you're trying to say.

But briefly: I do think that ice dancing history (where there would be no movement in standings from compulsory/OD/FD) has, regardless of whether you think it's true or not, given ice dancing the impression that it's not about quality or quantity but waiting your turn. When I watch a performance by a team like Drobiazko/Vanagas, I wonder how they could ever lose to Lobacheva/Averbukh. When I see a team pushing the envelope like the Duchesnays, I think it's a shame that they didn't find the support from their home federation that they deserved (and this is a textbook example of someone not fitting the mold of the times and losing out because of it). I think COP has done wonders for dance. I think it's the opposite of spoonfeeding, actually, but encouraging understanding, whereas before it was about ignoring understanding.

But just so we're clear, when you say "I did not say this" are you stating the opposite (that you do not believe the things I mentioned?)

 

[ubiq75]

LADIES

1) Kostner - if she manages to skate clean, she should win by a long shot. Her marks in the GP indicate that she is competitive, and especially at Euros, this will be the case.

2) Korpi - Great elegance and programs- enough to hold onto silver.

3) Leonova or Makarova- depending who skates best that day. Hopefully Makarova can take the bronze, however.

It's too bad Lepisto won't be competing here- she could really turn up the heat against Kostner (ie. 2009)

 

[AnnaTheMusician]

My predictions/hopes for women:

1) Korpi - my all time favourite. If she makes clean programs, she'll have all the possibilities to win.
2) Kostner. I love the Debussy program.
3) Meier. Skater with elegance and style. I hope she's ok with her healthy.

 

[alithia]

While I can appreciate the Duchesnay's approach,I have to say that at moments I found them particularly overmarked for their technical weaknesses.
There are teams that are great technicians,couples that have a specific approach to dance and interesting choreographic input but may not be such good skaters and couples that have both.I love Usova/Zhulin and as a kid thought they were better than K/P because I found their programs more appealing, but years later I can understand and appreciate K/P much better
I have no problem with V/M programs because I find them unbelievable as skaters and one of the rare couples that possess both technical and artistic qualities.Whatever you may think of their choreography it's difficult not to admire them as skaters.
But I have a problem with the CoP.It leaves no place for real transitions and footwork.I can't watch a 6 feet guy catching his foot and twizzle Let the dancers invent new moves, new twizzles,new footwork and then judge them.I miss that in ice dancing.
I can remember a lot of beautiful programs in the past that didn't win a medal but I had such a good time with them.I really miss that and I hope they can give more freedom to the skaters.

I wouldn't be surprised if B/S ended up with a medal.I must be one of the few fans that appreciate them as skaters, and I can't understand why people dislike them.If it's their looks, well that's subjective.Of course their FD isn't a popular type of FD, it doesn't go well with people that have a certain idea about what european and russian ice dance must be.
Riazanova/Tkatchenko are a good team as well, I prefer them to I/K to be honest, but they give me this DomShab vibe, maybe because of Odintsovo etc.I/K are a work in progress and I don't want them to be burnt before they're ready.

Generally I don't get why we have to draw lines and put labels on ice dancing.For me, there is not European and N.American ice dancing, but good and bad ice dancing.I can't think that a Russian couple could skate to Mahler the way V/M did because their way of thinking and emoting is totally different.And that's all as far as I'm concerned.

Pechalat/Bourzat:I found them undermarked for many years, especially two years ago.This season they went the 'russian way'.They have russian programs, they don't aren't russian though.I much preferred them as they were, but I can understand that they have to do what it takes to finally win a medal.
Faiella/Scalli are a big question mark for me.Most of the times they have beautiful programs,but their only program that did something for me was their last FD.

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

alithia, can you pick a season and demonstrate the range of great dance programs you loved? Because the number of great programs that didn't win a medal really seems quite high over the past few years.

 

[alithia]

If I had to pick one season with many programs I enjoyed I'm afraid I'd go before the CoP..For example,it always comes to mind R/K Piazzolla tango or anything D/V have ever done and didn't win a medal for.I loved DenStav Sarabande that didn't even end into the top 5 If I remember correctly..

But if we're talking about the CoP era I'd probably go to 2008 Europeans,since we're talking about Europeans, where I liked Capellini/LaNotte, Pechalat/Bourzat and the Kerrs more than most of the medalists that season.I absolutely loved C/L's Love Story that season.I think I enjoyed them more than F/S.Especially about the Kerrs,I can aknoweledge that they're not skating clean most of the times but their joy is contagious.You can feel they love what they're doing out there.
I think we should start a discussion about great programs in the past...