Anyone surprised Ashley beat Mao?

[R.D.]

...i can't help but think about what alissa thinks about her winning. because she only placed 5th last year, but that was also with more stiff competition i believe, and a couple mistakes. maybe she's realizing now that ashley really is some competition for her?

I think that's a good thing, to have motivation like that. It will push her and keep her on her toes. If we want 3 spots back we need BOTH skaters to perform well.

As for the title, yes I was surprised. I wasn't sure that Wagner would get high scores with an international panel based on what happened at the NHK trophy (think she deserved 3rd), but she came out with such confidence and command that they gave her those scores, finally. The score was even more shocking, though (128??) - if only she didn't peak here!

It's good momentum for Wagner. She's headed in the right direction- but it's unfortunate that the score disparity between NHK and 4CC seems to confirm we're still stuck in the 6.0 mentality of "having to secure your place among the judges" instead of being rewarded with what you put out there, no matter what the day or skater.

 

[FlattFan]

Under 6.0 system, most of her jumps wouldn't count, correct?
Michael Weiss's quad lutz was not ratified because it was two-footed.

 

[Nadine]

Have to agree with you, FlattFan, and also it was very rare that someone with a fall would win a championship (only if the other top competitor fell as well), which is why Michelle Kwan won so many championships, she never fell (same with Evgeni Plushenko).

Lol now that I think about it figure skating seems to be the only sport where a fall wins. A fall by a ballerina would be a disaster, same as a gymnast, a diver, skier, bobsledder, snowboarder, and the list goes on...

However, the Olympics seems to be a whole other kettle of fish. Falls do matter there, so that's a good thing, especially with the whole world watching.

ONTO SOCHI 2014! :thumbsup:

 

[Mathman]

Under 6.0 system, most of her jumps wouldn't count, correct?
Michael Weiss's quad lutz was not ratified because it was two-footed.

Official "ratification" aside, it is hard to tell how two-footed landings, under-rotations, etc., were evaluated by the judges.

 

[Trewyn]

Ashley's score is enormous, she's pretty flabbergasted herself, I think. But the two-foot issues; I admit I'm not a technical specialist, but other than the clear two-foot (that she admitted to) in the SP on the 3-3 I thought all her jumps looked securely landed on one foot. The loop in the LP looked scary (maybe it was the camera angle) but she pulled it off and it had a really difficult entry and the landing on the 2A wasn't good enough to tack on the 3T but it all looked clean.

I really hope she can put out something similar in Nice!!! It'd be amazing if she could grab a medal!

 

[mskater93]

Under 6.0 system, most of her jumps wouldn't count, correct?
Michael Weiss's quad lutz was not ratified because it was two-footed.

Again it depends. Weiss's 4Lz was landed on both feet simultaneously versus landing foot/touching down free foot/landing foot which is why it wasn't ratified.

Most of Wagner's jumps have been cleanly landed on one foot between Nationals and 4CC (Nationals: 11/14 were clean on one foot, 3 were clean but slightly two footed; 4CC: 13/14 were clean on one foot, 1 was clean but slightly two footed).

Wagner has previously had issues with jumps that had 2 foots because she was hitting both feet simultaneously which resulted in under-rotation calls (her free foot, in her case, the right foot, was short more than 1/4 rotation and it was hitting at the same time as the landing foot).
Now, on the jumps where she has issues (there were 3 at Nationals between 2 programs and 1 at 4CC) she's landing clean but sort of dropping her free hip just a LITTLE as she starts unwinding which is causing the free toe to brush the ice on the exit.

 

[Nadine]

Mathman, it wasn't hard for me to tell, it would be reflected in the *technical* score. That's why Sarah Hughes always had to outjump her competitors because they had at least a 2-jump advantage over her, which meant she would have to skate clean with 7 triple jumps in order to beat a 5-triple jump program from Irina Slutskaya & Michelle Kwan (the former was a monster jumper whereas the latter was an excellent performer). And a fall would mean "death", just as in Sonja Henie's time. Excellence meant skating clean, no usurption of words.

***Note: also Nancy Kerrigan won the SP with her "technical" score at the 1994 Olympics, but Oksana Baiul won the "presentation" score. Her slight 2-foot was taken into account.***

Back to now, Ashley & Alissa will have it eaiser at this year's Worlds because there are no monster jumpers in the field IIRC (i.e. no Yuna, no Miki). And Alissa will have an advantage because of her spins, which in COP equals two triple jumps, therefore she will only have to land 4 or 5 jumps at most. However, Ashley will have to skate clean with at least 6 or 7 triple jumps, depending on what Mao and Carolina do. If Mao lands both of her 3axels, all bets are off! And if Carolina Kostner skates clean with at least 6 triple jumps, combined with her speed, she's going home with a medal, period. Therefore, the Americans have to bring their A-game. Can't wait! arty:


EDITED TO ADD: corrected spelling of Mathman's pseudonym, which I originally spelt Mathaman.

 

[mskater93]

The likelihood of Mao skating clean with a 3A in SP and LP are very low (she's had very few not called < or << in the last couple seasons). If she DOES I will be more surprised than wih how Wagner skated at 4CC.

 

[Srin Odessa]

Under 6.0 system, most of her jumps wouldn't count, correct?
Michael Weiss's quad lutz was not ratified because it was two-footed.

Judges were given a guideline on what deductions to apply to the technical mark based on the severity of the error.

You can find the guidelines here (circa 2000): ww2.isu.org/news/1086.pdf

In 2001-2002, it was described as the following:
- Touchdown with hand or light brush with free leg: Minus 0.1-0.2
- Stepout: Minus 0.2-0.3
- Hard landing with two feet: Minus 0.2-0.3
- Fall : Minus 0.3-0.4
- Under-rotation: Minus 0.2-0.3
- Wrong Edge: Minus 0.1-0.3 (Although, this often went unnoticed by the judges if it wasn't egregious enough)

Of course, Judges had to balance deductions with the skater's accomplishments over his or her competitors. It could lead to some very divisive scores. Timothy Goebel's Free Skate performance at Skate America 1999 was the following: Triple Lutz (fall), Triple Axel (Step-out) + Triple Toeloop, Quadruple Salchow + Triple Toeloop, Quadruple Toeloop, Quadruple Salchow, Triple Flip, Triple Loop, Triple Salchow (Off a hydro).

How do you judge the technical scores of man who fell on his opening jump, stepped out in between a combination, had some neat transitions, skated in a competition in which several of his opponents popped or fell due to to Colorado Spring's high altitude, performed an unprecedented three quads in a free skate, could have better spins, and lacked Yagudin's speed and footwork? Well, the judges mostly gave him 5.8s with a 5.4 to 5.9 in technical merit.

This approach would recognize that Weiss went for Quad Lutz relative to the competition and performed it with a brush of the free foot on the landing. You can think it as how some countries handle traffic violations. In the US, you have nowhere to go but down by going up on the driving points system. Some countries, such as Italy, have a baseline number for all new drivers. Then, they deduct points for bad behavior and reward extra points for clean driving over a period of time.

 

[l'etoile]

Not surprised. Technically, Mao's quality is now no better than Ashely's IMO. Even if she's included 3As in her programs, Mao's been landing jumps with two-foot more than ever this season and seemingly Ashely doesn't have that problem for now, rotating jumps. I seriously don't remember the last time Mao was credited with 3A and really don't expect much from her "reworking technique". It's been two years and she's nowhere near her best shape when it comes to jumps. I'd say there is some gap between them in presentation skills but Ashely's making that up by not making mistakes on jumps and and by acting OTT with big yet impressive movements.

 

[clairecloutier]

I personally am still a little surprised that Ashley won.

I don't argue that she deserved it. I think she did. It was definitely her best skate ever. But I'm still a little surprised, because I personally feel like Mao is much superior to Ashley in artistry, and yet the PCS scores did not reflect that at all.

I know a lot of people think Ashley is great artistically, but I'm still not feeling it. What I see is an athlete who's going out there and performing the choreography she's been given with a lot of confidence and attack. That is quite different from seeing an artist with the exquisite line, beauty, and musicality of Mao. Every time I see Mao skate Liebestraum this season, there are so many moments of pure and captivating beauty that just grab me and catch my breath. Every moment I am thinking how beautiful, how special, Mao is. I could never imagine feeling that about Ashley. Yes, she is improving a lot, but to me her movement doesn't reflect any real musicality, just a determined placement of her arms and legs where she's been told to put them.

I don't really mean to "diss" Ashley. I'm actually very happy for her. It's always exciting to see a skater hit their real potential, and I'm also thrilled because if she performs this way at Worlds, we're almost certain to regain our third spot in ladies. So honestly, I'm happy for Ashley. But I'm still a little surprised she beat Mao.

I just hope Mao can clean up her technique more and really skate her best programs at Worlds. Even though she didn't win 4CC, her performance was still a big improvement from earlier in the season and I think she has a lot to build on. But, she HAS to skate clean. I think Mao is now stuck in the Sasha Cohen syndrome with the judges--they know how great she can be and are frustrated that she can't or won't skate clean. I feel like they take it out on her in the PCS scores, not just the TES; it's almost like they want to punish her doubly for not living up to their expectations. I always felt like Sasha somehow got punished more than other skaters for her errors; I feel the same way about Mao. I admit this is just a feeling though, it's not based on extensive analysis of protocols, so I could be totally wrong.

But I wonder if Mao88 is right about Mao dropping the 3Axel. I think at this point, she might do better scorewise if she skated a clean program without the 3Axel than a flawed program with the Axel, because both her TES/PCS might be higher with a clean skate.

 

[mskater93]

"Artistry" is not one of the PCS scores. "Artistry" is covered a little bit in the "IN" and "PE" mark but nowhere else. If Ashley came out blazing and Mao was tentative after the 3A attempt in terms of skating ability, that would explain the difference in their scores.

 

[clairecloutier]

"Artistry" is not one of the PCS scores. "Artistry" is covered a little bit in the "IN" and "PE" mark but nowhere else. If Ashley came out blazing and Mao was tentative after the 3A attempt in terms of skating ability, that would explain the difference in their scores.

To me, "artistry" is a concept--a catchall term, if you will--that denotes a skater's overall ability to interpret music on ice and express its beauty through movement. Skaters utilize many discrete, specific skills to produce a level of artistry, or artistic impression, during each performance. I would argue that the five different PCS scores are all meant to capture skills that, combined, create the skater's artistry.

According to the ISU web site, the five different PCS scores are based in part on the quoted characteristics:

SS (Skating Skills):

"Flow and effortless glide"
"Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns"
"Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement"
"Mastery of one foot skating"

TR (Transitions):

"Difficulty"
"Intricacy"
"Quality"

PE (Performance/Execution):

"Physical, emotion, and intellectual
involvement"
"Carriage"
"Style and individuality/personality"

CH (Choreography):

"Pattern and ice coverage"
"Phrasing and form (movements
and parts structured to match
the phrasing of the music)"

IN (Interpretation):

"Effortless movement in time to the
music (timing)"
"Expression of the music’s style,
character and rhythm"
"Use of finesse to reflect the nuances
of the music"

There are other criteria for each PCS mark. I quoted these criteria because I feel Mao particularly excels in these areas. For example, "flow and effortless glide," which is part of SS. This characteristic is both a skating skill, and also an important aspect of Mao's artistic impression. How many posters here have commented on how she floats over the ice so beautifully? This is absolutely a technical ability that--combined with other skills--helps create her "artistry" on ice. Do you see what I mean? "Artistry," as I see it, is a skater's level of expression, made possible by the combination of their technical skills, dance ability, musicality. The PCS mark is intended to take all this into account.