Anyone surprised Ashley beat Mao?

[chuckm]

The tech specs were Finnish and Australian and they were very lenient on edge calls: only three skaters (Murakami, Imai, Muniz) got dinged. Asada, Wagner and Zhang usually do get edge calls on the lutz and did not here.

I am surprised that Mao is still banking on a 3A which has been URd or downgraded in the past 2-3 seasons. It's not so bad if it's just <, but a 3a<< is a real liability. I thought Mao was cautious and slow in her FS and after the hand down on the 3z and the doubled salchow, I wasn't shocked at all that Wagner won.

Worlds should be interesting. Kostner has had a great season and Worlds in Europe should help seal what may be her last shot at a World Championship (she is 25). I don't think Mao can beat her, although a clean Suzuki in top shape might have a shot. I'd be surprised if Wagner could beat Kostner, even with a 4CC skate, because Europe is Kostner's home court. But a World medal is not out of the question for Wagner, if she brings her best performance.

 

[FlattFan]

I'm the only one who is surprised, it seemed.
The problem I had is Ashley got +GOE for her 2fted 3F-3T in the SP.
At nationals, most of her jumps were 2fted, and she didn't get penalized for it. Same story here.
What's going on? Is someone behind the scene telling all judges to overlook her chronic problem?

 

[lavender]

I wasn't surprised only because of the scores (especially pcs scores) they gave Ashley in the short. After that I knew I shouldn't be surprised:think:

Ashley was just having one of those competitions and now she has that National title. Plus this is the year she has really good programs.

 

[mskater93]

The only thing that was two footed at 4CC was the 3T in the combo in the SP. She probably had it buried near the judges' side boards where it would be difficult for the judges to see and from their vantage point, it was good: had speed, flow, and had transitions in and out of it. Everything else was WELL landed in both programs and VERY secure. The 2A in the combo was a little scratchy which is why she only did a 2T out of it, but that's not a reason to take a negative GOE on it.

I think if Ashley performs as she did here or even a little better and Carolina still doesn't have a 3Lz back in her programs at Worlds, she has a chance. A small one, but a chance none the less.

 

[macy]

i don't want to say ashley didn't deserve a 128, but that seems awfully high. she did skate SO well and i have never ever seen her take such control of the ice. it was awesome. but i was thinking maybe like 124-ish. and i can't help but think about what alissa thinks about her winning. because she only placed 5th last year, but that was also with more stiff competition i believe, and a couple mistakes. maybe she's realizing now that ashley really is some competition for her?

 

[jaylee]

I'm the only one who is surprised, it seemed.
The problem I had is Ashley got +GOE for her 2fted 3F-3T in the SP.
At nationals, most of her jumps were 2fted, and she didn't get penalized for it. Same story here.
What's going on? Is someone behind the scene telling all judges to overlook her chronic problem?

Other than the slight two-foot on the 3F/3T in the SP (which two judges caught), what jumps did Ashley two-foot? I didn't see any in the FS.

On the other hand, Mao had a slight two-foot on the 3A in the FS and a very clear two-foot on the 3Lo in the FS (only one judge noticed the 3Lo).

So, I don't think anything is going on. Certainly, if there is "someone behind the scene telling all judges to overlook her chronic problem", the evidence doesn't support that Ashley's two-footed landings were overlooked here. :sheesh:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

If there is any "chronic problem" associated with Ashely, it is a problem for her competitors: she keeps winning! I also didn't see any 2 footed landings in her LP. I do agree with FlattFan that she probably shouldn't have gotten +GOE on her SP combo, but she wasn't the only person who benefitted from lenient judging here. In the end, the right skaters got the medals they deserved.

 

[chuckm]

One thing I noticed was the Ladies tech panel didn't give many edge calls. In the FS, only 3 ladies got them: Imai, Murakami and Muniz. I was surprised Asada and Wagner didn't get dinged for flutzing, because they usually do.

 

[FlattFan]

The only thing that was two footed at 4CC was the 3T in the combo in the SP.

Which was the only thing that I brought up.
At nationals, however, she 2fted at least 3 jumps. I was there and after her skate, they showed her flip in slow mo again, and it was definitely 2fted.

 

[lavender]

Ashley winning only twice isn't really chronic (not that it's a problem for me) . Maybe this is the start of something. Maybe it's not.

 

[Blades of Passion]

At nationals, however, she 2fted at least 3 jumps. I was there and after her skate, they showed her flip in slow mo again, and it was definitely 2fted.

Lightly two-footing is different than landing on both feet. When you are doing big, fully-rotated jumps with nice outflow it's not a huge deal that your free foot briefly brushes the ice. Not ideal, no, but it's just a minor annoyance rather than something which seriously hinders the quality of the element and the program. Ashley was totally clean in her Long Program at 4CC anyway; a very good sign.

 

[mskater93]

Which was the only thing that I brought up.

Then it's not a "chronic" issue if there was only one jump at 4CC and they didn't "overlook" anything (Nationals judges may have overlooked a couple jumps or they may have decided that overall it deserved whatever GOE they gave due to other bullets). The judging panel probably had a bad angle on the SP combo which resulted in a +GOE instead of the -1/-2 it deserved (on the video I saw of it, the 3T was somewhat close to the judges' boards which could have made it difficult for them to see whether it was 2 footed and it wasn't a "bad" two foot like MB Marley's throw in the pairs SP which was super-apparent). Wagner has transitions in and out of her jumps (many added after her second GP event), they have good ice coverage and height (probably better than most of the skaters who were at 4CC; probably only Zawadski and Murakami have better height and distance of the skaters at 4CC, but their jumps were lacking at points in their programs) and her jumps have good flow in and out.

BoP and I must have been posting at the same time and basically made similar comments.

 

[FlattFan]

Then it's not a "chronic" issue if there was only one jump at 4CC and they didn't "overlook" anything (Nationals judges may have overlooked a couple jumps or they may have decided that overall it deserved whatever GOE they gave due to other bullets). The judging panel probably had a bad angle on the SP combo which resulted in a +GOE instead of the -1/-2 it deserved (on the video I saw of it, the 3T was somewhat close to the judges' boards which could have made it difficult for them to see whether it was 2 footed and it wasn't a "bad" two foot like MB Marley's throw in the pairs SP which was super-apparent). Wagner has transitions in and out of her jumps (many added after her second GP event), they have good ice coverage and height (probably better than most of the skaters who were at 4CC; probably only Zawadski and Murakami have better height and distance of the skaters at 4CC, but their jumps were lacking at points in their programs) and her jumps have good flow in and out.

BoP and I must have been posting at the same time and basically made similar comments.

I've made a few comments on her speed and coverage and they were all positive. She was better than most girls.
What I have trouble with is she got +GOE on very apparent 2ft jumps. I don't even need slow mo to see the 2ft landing. The free leg jerked up every time she had a 2ft landing. None of them had nice outflow because of the jerkiness in the free leg.
I would give -1 or -2 GOE on all girls with 2ft landing, nothing against her for this particular problem.

 

[mskater93]

The judge also must take into account postive bullets to determine overall GOE on the element and if she has enough positive bullets, they can negate some or all of the two foot landing.

At 4CC, Wagner's LP jump GOEs were as follows:
3F+2T+2T (+1)
2A+2T (+0.5)
3Lz (+0.8)
3Lo (+1)
3S (+1.1)
3Lo+2T (+0.7)
3F (+1)

The only one I would consider quibbling with is the Lz as it could have gotten an "e" although it was borderline.

At Nationals, her GOEs were as follows:
3F+2T+2T (+1.2)
2A+3T (-0.6)
3Lz (-0.4): "e" call
3Lo (+1.4)
1S (-0.2)
3Lo+2T (-0.2)
3F (-0.4)
Clearly the judges took the slight two footed landings into consideration at Nationals and some decided the positive aspects outweighed the slight two foot and gave her a 0 or +1 and others did not. The jumps that you say were two footed (and I am not disagreeing with your assessment from Nationals that they were) all received net negative GOE, which makes sense. A jump that would otherwise get a +1 or +2 got a 0 or -1 depending on where that judge's starting point was (+2 or +1).

At 4CC, none of her LP elements had 2 footed landings, so the positive aspects of the jumping elements had nothing to weigh them negative. It's not like her GOEs on the jumping elements were +2 and +3 across the board at 4CC. There were a lot of +1s and a smattering of +2s and a few 0s.

As to the SP GOE on the combo, I have provided a potentially valid argument for the majority of the panel's positive GOE. There's been talk before that skaters try to bury things in a corner where it's hard to see the outcome when they are questionable so they can get the benefit of the doubt from the judges/tech panel. Some choreographers are ingenious at burying those elements.

 

[Nadine]

To be totally honest, I wasn't sure what the judges would do, in *my* mind Ashley won the SP & the LP. But Mao's been on the scene a long time, won many many medals, is an exceptionally gifted skater, and has earned her rep points. Therefore, I wasn't sure what they were going to do, only knowing I would have honestly been happy either way because I enjoy (& am a fan) of them BOTH.

ps: regards 2footing, there really *is* a difference between lightly "brushing the ice" for a millisecond versus visibly landing on two feet. Oksana, Ashley, and sometimes Gretchen do the former. Jmho.

 

[skateflower]

Worlds should be interesting. Kostner has had a great season and Worlds in Europe should help seal what may be her last shot at a World Championship (she is 25). I don't think Mao can beat her, although a clean Suzuki in top shape might have a shot. I'd be surprised if Wagner could beat Kostner, even with a 4CC skate, because Europe is Kostner's home court. But a World medal is not out of the question for Wagner, if she brings her best performance.

In a normal world, any of the top ladies including Mao, Wagner and Suzuki should beat Kostner if they skate clean. It's absolutely shameful to reward Kostner with that kind of technical content.

 

[chuckm]

They reward Kiira Korpi too---with high PCS scores, even when she doesn't land many jumps. Carolina gets rewarded for her speed, Korpi for her extraordinary good looks.

 

[ivy]

ps: regards 2footing, there really *is* a difference between lightly "brushing the ice" for a millisecond versus visibly landing on two feet. Oksana, Ashley, and sometimes Gretchen do the former. Jmho.

This is interesting to me because I always thought it was big deal, some where along the lines of an e call or a <. I guess it goes back the the 6.0 days before slo mo replays or protocol sheets. I seem to remember Dick and Peggy always pointing out any jump that may have been the slightest bit two footed, even if was just the toe pick of the free leg grazing the ice as it swung back to check the landing. I will revise my assumptions....

 

[kwanatic]

I wasn't that shocked that she beat Mao, especially given their respective performances. Mao had a solid skate but she had too many small errors and, in the end, those are what cost her gold. Ashley OTOH came out with focus and attack and nailed everything in her program. Great command of the ice, secure in all of her elements...she went out there like she knew she was going to nail it and she did.

Ashley's been skating well all season long, but she seems to have hit her stride. When a skater performs like that, it's impossible for the judges not to reward it, otherwise it's just blatant cheating. I thought she got snubbed when she came in 4th at whatever event that was that Alena Leonova beat her out for 3rd place. But Ashley's got that national title, which adds a slight level of respect...if you can back it up and she did, thus the judges had no reason to skimp on the marks.

Ashley outskated Mao; simple as that. Mao's program is lovely (my favorite LP of hers ever) and she skated well, but the little mistakes marred the program and lost her those crucial points she needed to best Ashley, who in comparison, had a flawless skate with a program that is packed transitions. Those transitions + her clean execution of her jumps is why all of her jump elements ended up with positive GOE. That's how Yu-Na used to score so high: transitions into and out of elements boost your score. Add in speed, solid spins and the overall presentation and it's no wonder why she won.

If Mao ended up with only one mistake instead of three, she'd have won this event. A flawless Ashley can beat a flawed Mao, but I seriously doubt if a flawless Ashley can beat a flawless Mao...

 

[mskater93]

This is interesting to me because I always thought it was big deal, some where along the lines of an e call or a <. I guess it goes back the the 6.0 days before slo mo replays or protocol sheets. I seem to remember Dick and Peggy always pointing out any jump that may have been the slightest bit two footed, even if was just the toe pick of the free leg grazing the ice as it swung back to check the landing. I will revise my assumptions....

The answer is, it depends. If it is slight and AFTER the skater has clearly landed on the correct foot, it's a lot more acceptable than landing on both feet and likely won't take more than a 1 pt hit to the GOE. If it clearly lands on both feet (such as MB did in the pairs SP), that's a -2 off the GOE and typically a negative overall.