Are All Judging Panels Equal?

[seniorita]

I always wanted to ask something, about pcs. What if a judge doesnt like the program he sees?
If they skater has transitions, choreography, presentation and hits the bullets of interpretation as well, but a judge doesnt like what he sees, the program as a program, is he allowed to show it in his marks? I always though different cultures, age and personality of a judge could end up not liking a program even if it covers all the pcs requirements and I was wondering if this affects the marks.

 

[R.D.]

I always wanted to ask something, about pcs. What if a judge doesnt like the program he sees?
If they skater has transitions, choreography, presentation and hits the bullets of interpretation as well, but a judge doesnt like what he sees, the program as a program, is he allowed to show it in his marks? I always though different cultures, age and personality of a judge could end up not liking a program even if it covers all the pcs requirements and I was wondering if this affects the marks.

That's a good question. I've wondered that as well...and that's one of the major problems with the human element. The Cop is trying to appear to be objective and unbiased when, in reality, it's the same old judges generating those numbers. I think it's all smoke and mirrors. Sometimes the so-called "program compoment scores" are laughable.

 

[miki88]

That's a good question. I've wondered that as well...and that's one of the major problems with the human element. The Cop is trying to appear to be objective and unbiased when it's the same old judges generating those numbers. I think it's all smoke and mirrors. Sometimes the so-called "program compoment scores" are laughable.

So true! And as to the original question, isn't the answer obvious?

 

[Mathman]

The object of a competition is to determine the podium but for only that one comp.

The irony is, that is how it always was before the CoP. Going way back, the judges sat by the side of the lake and held up signs that said: 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.

Under 6.0, it was the same thing. The 5.8s were just place markers to help the judges remember that they liked skater Q better than skater T. The only thing that counted was the ordinals: who won, who came in second, etc.

It is only with this latest system that 1st, 2nd, 3rd is out the window and instead we have 5.2 points for a triple loop, 3.5 [points for a spin with X number of changes of position, and 6.75 points for interpreting the music.

 

[janetfan]

I always wanted to ask something, about pcs. What if a judge doesnt like the program he sees?
If they skater has transitions, choreography, presentation and hits the bullets of interpretation as well, but a judge doesnt like what he sees, the program as a program, is he allowed to show it in his marks? I always though different cultures, age and personality of a judge could end up not liking a program even if it covers all the pcs requirements and I was wondering if this affects the marks.

If you were to ask Elvis, Evan, Johnny and Plushy that question you would get some interesting answers and much different opinions.

My answer is that judges are not only human, but they are employed by their federations. It seems apparent that many of their marks for the pcs are predetermined to an extent and of course there is the same politicking as before going on.

What is strange is that ISU would actually use Lori to train judges. Even if Lori is honest she is also human.
No doubt she favored Evan over Plushy to any judge that would listen to her. This year's flavor is Patrick.

Doesn't it seem odd that Lori has so much political clout in a system that is supposed to be based on fairness?
Now some of our friends from across the pond can see how N. Americans felt when Tat had so much clout with the judges.

Any active coaches or choreographers should not be in positions to influence judging panels. I understand a little bit of influence is normal but until they change some things the ISU leaves itself open for doubt.

The JSF knowing Tat would never be Mao's full-time coach thought it was imperative that Tat was with Mao at the big events and sat with her in thew K&C.

Why was that? Did it work - or was the JSF simply behind the times. They should have had Lori doing her choreo and sitting with Mao - and not Tat.

Such is the world of figure skating.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

True. But just how different is the CoP from the 6.0 system. 6.0 was basically about opinions on the schooling judges had to qualify as judge. Comparisons would, of course, dominate the scores at the top tier skaters. However, in the CoP, a series of Tech scores based on definitions are at work, and those scores should show a winner with the most base value points. However again, the CoP brings up the performance ranking of the actual trick with it's GoEs. So it is not strictly Technical without Performance. Then the CoP has a whole set of how a program should be run, and even with the descriptions of the components and their respective bullets, they are easily used as comparisons and give opinions that are not quantifyable.

Unless, imo, there is an overhaul of the CoP, it makes no difference between it and the 6.0 system. I am not so angry as I sound but I am disheartend with the CoP. When I watch a competition LIVE, I can easily tell who will be the top 3 skaters for that competition, and so can all fans if they rid themselves of national bias. The 6.0 system will do.

 

[seniorita]

I begin to have my doubts as well, especially after two mediocre Gps.Maybe it is a bad season but only Nhk got me excited. Iluvtodd sent me some links to watch of Eldredge and by this opportunity I watched a dozen of men between 1996 and 1998 and some till 2001 and I found myself watching the lps with such ease, no breaks. I dont know how many say there was no choreography neither anything between jumps in 6.0 but I watched Kulik, Yagudin, Urmanov, Eldredge, Goebel, Stojko and many more and I found their programs so refreshing and spectacular and with transitions and character, they fly from element to element, i remember I didnt care for Eldredge back in the day and now I thought he looked great.I didnt get distracted once. I noted down many programs that I had never seen and would like to see again!

Of course they didnt have these spins like now, but I m trying to think which man or lady does amazing spins that fit to choreo on top of that? Tomas does his requirement spins at the end of the program in sp back to back and it takes all the beauty from the program, most men do them at the end back to back or before and after footwork. Ok back then they didnt hold them for long, but I dont like watching 8 revolutions of pancake or the A spin or 100 variations of upright and sit spin now, it looks like they invent positions to satisfy because CoP asks it and because spins improved under the new system, Mirai 's spins for example would have been so enjoyable in 6.0 as well,but in many ladies I wish time passed faster in spins, in men i m trying to find one skater from the last 3 GPs who I wait to see his spins in the program, like I did with Stephane. How many are there? Yet a minute of the Lp is spent for me to watch them brining the foot to their ear and spin because they will lose levels. Same with footwork, few include it as part of choreo and has something to do with the program and fewer give personality to it without doing a high kick in the middle of nowhere, flap or say hello to ice to gain levels.
I dont have a problem with the judging system as a point system instead of 6.0, of course it is more accurate and right but with what they have put skaters to do to gain these points.

 

[janetfan]

I begin to have my doubts as well, especially after two mediocre Gps.Maybe it is a bad season but only Nhk got me excited. Iluvtodd sent me some links to watch of Eldredge and by this opportunity I watched a dozen of men between 1996 and 1998 and some till 2001 and I found myself watching the lps with such ease, no breaks. I dont know how many say there was no choreography neither anything between jumps in 6.0 but I watched Kulik, Yagudin, Urmanov, Eldredge, Goebel, Stojko and many more and I found their programs so refreshing and spectacular and with transitions and character, they fly from element to element, i remember I didnt care for Eldredge back in the day and now I thought he looked great.I didnt get distracted once. I noted down many programs that I had never seen and would like to see again!

Of course they didnt have these spins like now, but I m trying to think which man or lady does amazing spins that fit to choreo on top of that? Tomas does his requirement spins at the end of the program in sp back to back and it takes all the beauty from the program, most men do them at the end back to back or before and after footwork. Ok back then they didnt hold them for long, but I dont like watching 8 revolutions of pancake or the A spin or 100 variations of upright and sit spin now, it looks like they invent positions to satisfy because CoP asks it and because spins improved under the new system, Mirai 's spins for example would have been so enjoyable in 6.0 as well,but in many ladies I wish time passed faster in spins, in men i m trying to find one skater from the last 3 GPs who I wait to see his spins in the program, like I did with Stephane. How many are there? Yet a minute of the Lp is spent for me to watch them brining the foot to their ear and spin because they will lose levels. Same with footwork, few include it as part of choreo and has something to do with the program and fewer give personality to it without doing a high kick in the middle of nowhere, flap or say hello to ice to gain levels.
I dont have a problem with the judging system as a point system instead of 6.0, of course it is more accurate and right but with what they have put skaters to do to gain these points.

Interesting observations. These are some of the points BOP had raised and what Lambiel mentioned as well in the clip I posted.

I also agree whole heartedly with Stephane that taking Shiz to a chocolate shop is a very good idea. Where is the smilie for major JEALOUSY

If the spins weren't always as technically difficult they did at times seem to flow with the music better.

BTW, Todd had a pretty nice 3A ......

 

[seniorita]

he had...and so much more, his knight program was amazing, and i was also thrilled with his 2001. Back then I found him unexciting although I knew only his last competitive years, but I was really liking his programs yesterday, and saw many back to back without fridge break is this a good sign about the current crop? and Kulik's Adam's Family and Liebestram and Galindo's Fs , I can go on for days, where all the personality in a program has gone, it is the the battle of choreographers now. And there was so much more music than MJ and piano concerto's (kozuka I m talking about you).

 

[Figure88]

It's all about 1 competition, and Consistency v. Errors (falls, e.g.). The object of a competition is to determine the podium but for only that one comp.

Actually, my point is that you need to look at scores from more than one competition to arrive at a meaningful conclusion about scoring results because of the possibility of judging inconsistencies.

On a side note, I think the season’s best scores are a truer measure of a skater’s rank/scoring potential than personal best scores for obvious reasons---updated rule changes in the judging system that render the PB score now obsolete. Also, the changes in the skater’s athletic abilities for the worse or better in between the years that are not reflected in the PB score.

My answer is that judges are not only human, but they are employed by their federations. It seems apparent that many of their marks for the pcs are predetermined to an extent and of course there is the same politicking as before going on.

Agree w/you on 2 main reasons for judging inconsistencies being:

1) Judges are human
2) Outside politics

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Actually, my point is that you need to look at scores from more than one competition to arrive at a meaningful conclusion about scoring results because of the possibility of judging inconsistencies.

On a side note, I think the season’s best scores are a truer measure of a skater’s rank/scoring potential than personal best scores for obvious reasons---updated rule changes in the judging system that render the PB score now obsolete. Also, the changes in the skater’s athletic abilities for the worse or better in between the years that are not reflected in the PB score.

True, if we are looking for a Body-of-Work champion. But in competition, only each competition ounts for a podium finish.

Agree w/you on 2 main reasons for judging inconsistencies being:

1) Judges are human
2) Outside politics

Absolutely. That rationale carries much more of a picture than "There are other things to consider."