Are Qualifying Rounds Really Necessary????

[Kuchana]

I don't think so. Ever since it was put in place for Worlds and the GPF, I've always disagreed with it. Ok so the purpose was supposed to narrow the field and give the lesser known skaters more of a "fair" chance with an opportunity (although a very slim one) to place, but I think the negatives far outweigh the positives. One major reasoning for me alone is because it takes up too much toll on the skaters, already having to skate a SP and a LP but another LP in the process? But do you think the Qualifying Rounds are of merit? Or do you think such as myself that the ISU should do away with it completely? And is the ISU planning to do away with it anytime soon? I hope so.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think every eligible skater from a country should be able to skate in a Worlds or Olympics.

That being said, I question the rationale for having QRs. I believe the purpose of the QRs are to ease the judging so that they can concentrate on the those skaters who do well in the qualifiers and eliminate those who do not. How many are considered to be eliminated is the problem. For some reason it was decided that if you reached the top 30 you could go on to the next stage of the competition. That means 5 groups of 6 skaters. You know the rest. The result is three or four skaters are eliminated; and 18 skaters haven't got a prayer in heaven to get on the podium. And without a doubt, 6 more would need a miracle.

In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, I would eliminate the QRs, and I would let everyone skate the SP. From there one can either eliminate the ones who do not have a prayer in heaven of reaching the podium or letting them all skate for the sake of going to all that trouble of travelling to the cite of the competitions.

As a live spectator I would love to see ALL skate their LP programs. As a sportsman, I think only the top 12 should make the final LP and maybe some others who have enough sub-total CoP points to possibly make the podium.

It is a sport first, and should be treated as a sport. Contestants are eliminate in other sports - no reason why they shouldn't be in figure skating.

As far as TV spectating, well, what can any of us do, except complain.

Joe

 

[hockeyfan228]

I think every eligible skater from a country should be able to skate in a Worlds or Olympics.

As a live spectator I would love to see ALL skate their LP programs. As a sportsman, I think only the top 12 should make the final LP and maybe some others who have enough sub-total CoP points to possibly make the podium.

I think there's a way to accomplish both, well within the bounds of sport: instead of having LP qualification rounds, for singles and, there could be LP/FD consolation rounds. The skaters who did not come in top 10 or 12 in the SP or CD+OD, or be within a certain number of points for the cut-off -- i.e., if 11-15th were within 2 points of 10th place, that would be called a wash would skate in the consolation rounds. The schedule could look like this:

Monday:
morning: Dance CD-all
evening: Men's SP-all

Tuesday:
afternoon: Men's LP Consolations
evening: Pairs SP-all

Wednesday:
afternoon: Dance OD-all
evening: Men's LP Finals

Thursday:
afternoon: Ladies SP-all
evening: Pairs LP

Friday:
morning: Dance FD Consolation*
evening: Dance FD Finals

Saturday:
morning or afternoon: Ladies LP Consolation*
late afternoon or evening: Ladies LP Finals

*If the same judges would be wiped out doing two groups in one day, then separate panels could be used for the consolation rounds, or the two competitions could be switched. (That would make it very expensive for the non-finalist dance teams, who could be competing over six days instead of four, but it would mix it up a bit for the series passholders. On the other hand, a Ladies' or Men's Consolation round on a weekend might bring in more people than a Dance FD Consolation.)

Likewise, Ladies and Men's could be switched, like they were in Malmo in 2003.

There wouldn't be a need to change the calculation that determines the number of skaters each country qualifies, because the final placement remains.

The three downsides I see to this are:

a. The relatively small number of people who can come to the qualis during the day to get their only affordable glimpse of the top competitors would not see them in the consolation rounds, and the number of individual tickets to the consolation rounds would go down and might plummet. (Although, given the number of people who got their qualis/CD tickets from tour group people who punted the CD's and qualis, I'm not sure how many individual tickets to these events that they really sell. And the tour groups, who get all of the good tickets, are locked into series tickets, or they don't get any) However, if they set up a large screen to broadcast the feed from the finals, and limited it to the people who'd purchased individual tickets to consolation, not those with series tickets, they might sell more tickets to the consolation rounds, and the attendees would get the audio and video from the arena, without yakking commentary.

b. Although I saw lots of eliminated competitors in the stands for a couple of days after their event, this would make it more expensive for the dance teams, because their events would be over five days for the finalists and possibly six days, if the consolation FD was held on the last day.

It would, though, make it less expensive for the Men, because they'd go from competing over four days to competing over three days, and both the Men's and Ladies' finalists, would have a rest day between SP and LP; now the rest day is between qualis and SP.

It might make it more expensive for the pairs if they had to travel over the weekend, because they'd compete Tuesday-Thursday, instead of Monday-Wednesday.

c. There might be fewer qualifying competitors in the consolation rounds than in the qualification rounds, because some skaters might give up and go home, particularly if there was no possibility of earning an extra spot for their country. This would make it easier on the judges, but that might also drop the number of attendees. I'm not sure what's worse: skating to empty stands, or watching people leave in droves when the rank holds no top skaters.

 

[sk8m8]

hockeyfan, either you have way too much time on your hands or I vote that we start a petition to get you on the executive board of the USFSA. That is both a creative and practical solution. Not to mention it would keep the rotation of the judges going and give them more international experience. You could probably cull out poor judges based on the comparative way that they score. If a judge is consistantly missing marks that other judges are catching, or ommiting marks on purpose, having a larger comparative pool to "judge the judge" would be a great improvement. I truely believe (IMHO) that you can reshuffle and reschedual all you want, but until you take care of overseeing the judges, results are always going to be skewed.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

I think the qualifying rounds are totally ridiculous and should be abolished. With the abolishment of school figures, free skating is the name of the game. Why put the skaters through having to skate their long programs twice - and with all of the skaters, the scheduling is so disjointed that sometimes the skaters are obliged to COMPETE at 11:00 p.m. or even later. Utter nonsense!!

IMHO, the World Championships should be be a showcase for the best in the world, plain and simple. While it's nice to give all ISU member countries at least one entry into Worlds, if that particular country's entry can't even land a triple jump, what in the world is he or she doing competing at the Worlds?
The Worlds are not the place to send junior or even lower-level skaters so that they gain some "experience". There are plenty of other competitions - Grand Prix events and lesser events for these skaters to compete while leaving the Worlds open only for the top skaters in the World.

Frankly, the "top" singles list for both men and women probably comprises a short list of 24 skaters. That's enough for the judges and schedulers to manage, I should think. Let all of these "top" skaters compete - short program and long program, and that's it.

I would include the Olympics in this idea, but the Olympics has a grand tradition of giving everyone the opportunity to compete, regardless of skill.

 

[RIskatingfan]

The QR also has a another purpose that has not been mentioned, which is to put the skaters in warm-up groups according to their "quality". This is very important and it makes the judges' task easier (this goes mainly for men and ladies). I remember last Euros there was no QR in the ladies and the SP starting order was a mess. There were a few skaters who we could say suffered from skating so early. That said, I think this could be easily solved by using the ISU ranking system or some other way to rank the skaters and form the warm-up groups without making them skate a third program that they don't really have to (and that they generally don't want to). Or in an alternative way, if there has to be a cut on the number of skaters, let the top ranked skip it and have the competition among the ones who want to qualify.

Hockeyfan, I find your suggestion interesting but I think that's complicating too much something that really isn't that complicated, not to mention that it would be equivalent to have two different competitions - Worlds A (for the best) and Worlds B (for the less ranked). The purpose of Worlds is to bring the athletes all together competing in the same event. There are skaters who can finish 15th or lower that are as skilled or have as good programs as the top 5. Bad days happen to all and a skater can make mistakes in all jumps in the SP (which is crucial, yes) but still excell at spins or have other strengths. I cannot imagine last season's Worlds only with 10 or 12 men skating the LP, for example, it was just that good. They may all not have the same level nor it is possible, but they all work hard to be there and if they can land triple jumps, oh they definitely are among the best in the World. Can you land a triple jump? I sure can't.

My own proposal would be allow all skaters who qualified to Worlds (and Europeans) skate the SP. The warm-up groups would be formed according to a ranking system (could be ISU's with some modifications - a ranking system at any case) and set a limit (24? 30?) to the LP. It would be easier to handle by the organization, less tiring for the skaters and they all would have a chance to participate and compete in the same field.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

.

My own proposal would be allow all skaters who qualified to Worlds (and Europeans) skate the SP.

OK - but how would these skaters be "qualified"? I stand by my opinion that it is totally ridiculous to send skaters to Worlds who are junior or lesser-level skaters. Frankly, it's embarrassing to see these skaters display their obvious lack of technical and artistic skills. I apologize if this sounds snobby, because I am in no way critizing the skaters themselves. I certainly do want them to have every opportunity to develop their skills and compete at appropriate-level competitions. They should be encouraged to develop their skills as much as possible. However, if a male skater obviously cannot land a single triple jump, he is not a senior-level skater, and he does not belong at Worlds.

IMHO, of course!

 

[RIskatingfan]

OK - but how would these skaters be "qualified"?

The same way they are now. Doesn't each federation have the right to send a number of skaters? This is how you develop sport in the first place, by giving equal opportunities to the athletes. A federation can send a skater. If he's good, he'll have a good participation and who knows, can earn a spot to a fellow countryman. If he's not good enough, he won't participate in the rest of the competition and nobody loses anything with this anyway. What difference does it make having more 5 or 6 skaters competing anyway?

And I very much disagree with you on the aspect that the skaters who don't qualify for the SP don't have high technical or artistic skills. Have you ever watched a QR? If you haven't, you'll be surprised to know that many of these skaters are indeed very interesting and can land triple jumps. The competition is just too tight and not everybody can go. Yon Garcia was one the highlights of many people who attended Worlds in Dortmund and he didn't qualify for the SP. Patrick Meier is also a very interesting skater, a terrific spinner and he didn't qualify for the SP. You say they should be encouraged to develop their skills... well, having them interact and be on the same ice as World champions is a way to encourage them AND to give them experience. I'm not saying "let's send all skaters to Worlds to encourage them", but since you mentioned that aspect...

I see nothing embarrassing about this and I would say they feel quite proud of trying heir best in front of such a large audience. I understand you may not find it enjoyable to watch them and prefer to watch the top 10, for example. But this is not only made for the viewers. You can do like many people do: not watch the first warm-up groups and watch only the last ones. The skaters, OTOH, are there to compete, give their best and who knows what may happen. Kristoffer Berntsson who barely made it to the LP at Worlds was 6th in the Europeans after the SP, a month before, after skating a brilliant program. It's sport. Skating is already decreasing in popularity. If we start making Worlds an elite of the elite of the elite... how many skaters will be left? We're not exactly talking about tennis and even there everyone can try to play in a Grand Slam.

 

[LBC]

All the suggestions are wonderful.

I don't see a need for qualifying either. You go through the whole year with just a SP and LP then have to change it for Worlds and Europeans. With COP they can have a qualifying score that the skaters have to beat throughout the year to qualify for worlds. This way you don't have skaters who can only do 1 triple in there and you can use any competition as a qualifying score. They do this in track. Only runners who beat a certain time can make it into the olympics. Every country has a chance to make it to worlds but only if they qualify. For the ones who have more you limit it to the number/country method they have now. I'd like 3 per country but you may end up with only a few countries but they'll have to see. Of course if there isn't 30 skaters qualifed then you do less or lower the qualifying standard. That may take some time to figure out. Then you do a seeding based on a skater's highest COP score throughout the year. The top 30 skaters go to Worlds. Any ISU sanctioned competition will qualify. Then based on that seeding you do the draw. Top 6 in 1 warmup, next 6 in the 2nd one, etc.

You will have skaters working hard to get the highest score they can. The countries will have some leeway in choosing skaters If they have more than the alloted amount of skaters/country that are top 30 they can choose which ones to send. It doesn't have to be the ones with the highest scores.

 

[Ladskater]

Since the demise of figures there has to be some sort of "measuring rod" for the judges to compare skaters. I guess this is when the Qualifying Round was born. When the figure portion of the competition existed there was no such animal known as the "QR" only figures, Short program and long program. As with ice dance - there are preliminary dances or set pattern dances the dancers all have to perform before making it to the Original Dance or short and final long program. The judges have to watch couple after couple perform the same dance!!!! However, it helps them see the strengths and weaknesses of each ice dancer. I suppose this is the purpose of the Qualifying Round. My only problem with this aspect of the free disicipline is the skaters performing their same long program in the qualifying round as their free skate. I think they should do an entirely different program or even show variations of jumps and spins set forth by the judges. Surely this way the judges could spot strengths and weaknesses of each individual skater and mark them accordingly. Other than that, I say, bring back figures!!!!

 

[hockeyfan228]

The QR also has a another purpose that has not been mentioned, which is to put the skaters in warm-up groups according to their "quality".

It's actually to put the skaters in groups for the SP according to their quality.

Hockeyfan, I find your suggestion interesting but I think that's complicating too much something that really isn't that complicated, not to mention that it would be equivalent to have two different competitions - Worlds A (for the best) and Worlds B (for the less ranked).

I'm not sure a. Why there is anything more complicated in using the SP results to set the finals vs. using the quali results to set the SP results and, with few exceptions, set the LP results via the group placement from the SP. and b. why this means two separate competitions: through the SP results ("semifinals"), you either qualify for the LP or you qualify for the consolation rounds.

The purpose of Worlds is to bring the athletes all together competing in the same event.

They would all be competing in the same event, just like the pairs skaters do. They would just start with the SP instead of the quali rounds.

There are skaters who can finish 15th or lower that are as skilled or have as good programs as the top 5. Bad days happen to all and a skater can make mistakes in all jumps in the SP (which is crucial, yes) but still excell at spins or have other strengths.

In most sports, what you do that day is what matters: you either qualify for the final round or you don't. Why should figure skating compensate for a particularly bad performance in the SP? It doesn't compensate for a particularly bad performance in the qualis.

I cannot imagine last season's Worlds only with 10 or 12 men skating the LP, for example, it was just that good. They may all not have the same level nor it is possible, but they all work hard to be there and if they can land triple jumps, oh they definitely are among the best in the World. Can you land a triple jump? I sure can't.

Every skater who was in the top 24 in singles, Men and Ladies, landed at least one triple jump. What I can do or what you can do should not dictate who makes it to the finals of the sport's top competition. I disagree with you about Worlds Men's results from last year. The top 10-12 from the SP were:

1. Plushenko
2. Joubert
3. Lindemann
4. Weir
5. Weiss
6. Lambiel
7. Zhang
8. Griazev
9. Klimkin
10. Dambier
11. Takahashi
12. Li, C.

I beg to differ that van der Perren, 14th in the SP, was as good as Klimkin-Li, C. in the SP, or that they were anywhere close to the top 6, with the exception of Lambiel (6), who was held up based on his quali score, in my opinion. If Sandhu had been judged fairly for how good his spins and footwork were, he might have been top 12, or, using CoP, he might have been close enough to qualify by being within 2 points of Li.

But if he was judged fairly and he didn't qualify by placement or being with a certain number of points of the cut-off skater, why should he be in the finals? Plenty of top athletes in track and field or swimming at Athens failed to make the finals, including the World Record holder in women's high jump. Draghila had a bad day, and she didn't move on. All other athletes work all year for the championships, and in sports like gymnastics and aquatics, they work hard for two years.

Again, I don't know why figure skating should be different than other sports, or why singles and Dance should be different than Pairs, who start with the SP. Shen/Zhao had to take their lumps with their SP results; why shouldn't Lambiel or Sokolova?

My own proposal would be allow all skaters who qualified to Worlds (and Europeans) skate the SP.

How does this differ from what I've suggested?

The warm-up groups would be formed according to a ranking system (could be ISU's with some modifications - a ranking system at any case) and set a limit (24? 30?) to the LP.

In theory under CoP this wouldn't be needed. The question is whether grouping the skaters by rank would make the judges score automatically by rank -- i.e., raise the scores as the groups go along, instead of judging what's in front of them by the criteria. It seems to me that making the judges meet the criteria should be the most import thing the ISU does. However, since judges are human and subject to the limits of judgement, the tops seeds could be distributed randomly among the starting groups for SP's, like in tennis.

The Olympics have no qualification rounds for singles. If the most important competition in the sport has no qualis or pre-seeded why should the World Championships?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Hypothetically, if the SP is used as an elimination process as well as what it is intended to be, then the cut off mark on who should skate the LP comes into being. What number should that cut off be? Choices:

1. Everyone skates the LP regardless of how hopeless it is for getting a medal. no cut off necessary.

2. The cut off mark would only allow those skaters who have a mathematical chance of making the top 6. or top 12. ( a decision has to be made )

Once the choice is made, the LP programs are set. In choice no. l where all the skaters skate their LPs, the judges will have a monumental job of not being fatigued. Under CoP there really is no reason for judges to compare skaters (as in 6.0 system), and I believe those GoE scores will be going wild. No need to put the top tier skaters in one group of 6. The CoP scores are valid for all, so what difference does it make which grouping should a skater be in.

In choice no. 2, where 12 is the magic number to skate the LP. Again, the CoP is valid for all in whatever order one skates. Here the judges will not be fatigued in the judging. But the fans will be upset if a top tier skater's total SP scores puts him in 13th place. For live spectators this is annoying; for TV spectators, one would not see the top tier skater anyway.

Most round robin sports see the 'best' fall by the wayside because the aim is to produce a winner. I don't see why figure skting should be different.

Joe

 

[rain]

qualifying round...

I'm of two minds about the qualifying round. I disagree with many of the posters who've suggested that somehow the number of skaters who compete their long programs should be whittled down even more. I understand that the qualifying rounds were initiated in order to 1. make the number of skaters manageable, and 2. make it easier for the judges under the old judging system where they were required to place skaters, deciding who beat who.

The second reason should be taken care of by COP as judges are no longer required to place skaters along a continuum, but are supposed to judge a performance against its own maximum value. Therefore, no longer are judges trying to recall if skater 22 of the night actually skated better than skater 5 of the night. Making it less of a disadvantage for skaters to draw early etc.

There are no qualifying skates in pairs and dance because the number of competitors is small enough already and I think these disciplines aren't marred by the absence of another round. If it's necessary to cut down the number of singles skaters I say sure, go for a qualifying round, but wash out the scores at the end of it and start from scratch for the short and long for those who are still in the competition. I find that often the rather arbitrary set-up of the qualifying round groups puts some skaters higher than they deserve due to a weaker group, and some skaters at a disadvantage for the entire competition because they found themselves in a really strong group. I think it's equally important to get the placements right from third to seventh as it is to award the top spot, and qualifying rounds can and have done really funky things to these placements.

While other sports may also operate on this principle (strong group, weak group - luck of the draw, deal with it), I don't think that's a compelling argument to say skating should follow suit. You know the story of the lemmings. I don't think that helps to really reward the best skaters. I think these are trained enough athletes that they should be able to handle three performances in week, but if one is designated qualifying it should be just that, qualifying and nothing more. Scores should come from the SP and LP, period. If they want the third skate to count, they should require it to be something different from the two other portions of competition.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

. While other sports may also operate on this principle (strong group, weak group - luck of the draw, deal with it), I don't think that's a compelling argument to say skating should follow suit. You know the story of the lemmings. I don't think that helps to really reward the best skaters. I think these are trained enough athletes that they should be able to handle three performances in week, but if one is designated qualifying it should be just that, qualifying and nothing more. Scores should come from the SP and LP, period. If they want the third skate to count, they should require it to be something different from the two other portions of competition.

I'm not sure what you mean by " not rewarding the best skaters". Isn't that part of the definition of SPORT? If it doesn't matter how skaters are evaluated as to "strong" and "weak" then we can eliminate the judging all together and just have an annual convention where 3 skaters from every country can participate and skate their routines without any expectation of reward.

Figure Skating, at present, has a very questionable reputation as to whether it is or is not a SPORT. I think the CoP will help rid us of that reputation, at least to some exent.

There are losers in all sports and more often than not, the favorites can fall behind the wayside. If we coddle all the skaters and not worry about who was the 'best that night' and we are overly concerend about the skater who places 17th, then we are, imo, having exhibitions, and we should stop calling figure skating a SPORT. Let's give everyone a medal.

I'm all for everyone skating at least once. If an elimination process is necessary, so be it. After the last 'test' I expect a winner, a runner-up and a show prize. The rest of the field should be placed properly and that will happen, at least, in theory. No one is objecting to this.

The problem in the discussion is about the elimination process. I would say let everyone skate. If it is a burden on the judges, that will have to be worked out. Your suggestion to have a 'different' kind of skate for elimination is good.

As it is, a random selection of 30 skaters as the cut off point, for me, is stupid. To go through all the skaters in the QR to eliminate 4 or 5 has no mreit whatsoever..

Joe

 

[Vash01]

...............The second reason should be taken care of by COP as judges are no longer required to place skaters along a continuum, but are supposed to judge a performance against its own maximum value. Therefore, no longer are judges trying to recall if skater 22 of the night actually skated better than skater 5 of the night. Making it less of a disadvantage for skaters to draw early etc.

There are no qualifying skates in pairs and dance because the number of competitors is small enough already and I think these disciplines aren't marred by the absence of another round. ............Scores should come from the SP and LP, period. If they want the third skate to count, they should require it to be something different from the two other portions of competition.

I agree with most of this. However, there ARE QR's in dance. There is no QR in pairs. Also in the Olympics there is no QR for men or ladies singles. There is a talk of eliminating the QR in ice dance. So it does not make sense to have a QR in the world championships. IMO all the skaters that qualify should be allowed to skate the SP. The top 24 can make it into the LP. The COP will at least eliminate the need to compare - for example- skater#1 with skater #24. The SP skating order has not been an issue in the Olympics. The cream always rose to the top. For example, Maria B. was the first to skate in t he 98 Oly's and she was in 3rd place at the end of the SP's. B&S were the 3rd to skate in the 2002 SP and they were in 1st place after the SP.

One might say that the real problem is not with the 'cream' but with the large number of skaters that could place in the lower half or lower one third. It is hard to compare and eliminate a fraction of them. There is some truth in it, but I don't believe it takes a 4 or 4.5 minute program to rank these skaters. It seems particularly ridiculous to make the skaters skate the same LP twice. OTOH one may argue that it gives all the skaters skate the LP they have worked on. It is a nice consolation, but is it worth the effort? I would venture to guess that the not so great skaters like that opportunity but for those expected to make it to the top it is nothing more than a practice round. Unfortunately the final results may depend on the QR, as it did for Suguri last year. The SP has all the required elements, which should make it easy to give points and determine who goes to the next round.

 

[gkelly]

Also in the Olympics there is no QR for men or ladies singles.

The "qualifying round" for the Olympics is the previous year's Worlds plus a designated fall international to determine which countries get to participate in the men's and/or ladies' events, which are limited to 30 skaters per discipline before the Olympics even begins, and which have to stay home.

There is a talk of eliminating the QR in ice dance.

There isn't a qualifying round in dance. There's a compulsory dance or two, which is not the same thing at all as skating the free program another time, more comparable to the school figures. The CD competition is only broken down into two separate groups with separate panels if there are TOO MANY skaters for one panel to judge in one sitting.

This happens a lot less often with dance than with singles. But in both cases, the logic behind dividing the groups before making the first cut is to keep the size of the field manageable.

So it does not make sense to have a QR in the world championships. IMO all the skaters that qualify should be allowed to skate the SP. The top 24 can make it into the LP.

Even if there are 45 skaters in the field at Worlds or 50 at Junior Worlds? (BTW, what's your opinion on qualifying rounds at Junior Worlds, which tends to be even larger than Worlds? Euros is smaller, and qual rounds have now been eliminated there.)

Options for having that many skaters all skate the short program would be:

1) Divide into two groups along similar lines to the current division for qual rounds, and take the top 12 skaters from each group.

2) Divide into two groups and take the top 24 scorers no matter which group they happened to skate in.

3) Put them all in one group and have one panel of judges sit and pay attention for 5 hours straight except for resurfaces.

4) Put them all in one group and rotate the judges in and out to give them breaks, equivalent to randomly choosing different judges' scores to count for each skater, only when they're not being counted they don't have to sit and pay attention at all.

Obviously under an ordinal system 2) and 4) would make no sense at all, but under Code of Points they could be feasible.

It seems particularly ridiculous to make the skaters skate the same LP twice.

Tell it to the juvenile girls at the larger US regionals.

Juveniles don't skate short programs. When there are more than 72 skaters in an event, there are three rounds with cuts after each round to get the field down to one group for the final.

Therefore, the skaters who make the cut have to skate the same free program three times to try to qualify for Junior Nationals.

OTOH one may argue that it gives all the skaters skate the LP they have worked on. It is a nice consolation, but is it worth the effort?

If you're using the LP to make the cut in the first place, it's not a consolation for having already failed to advance, it's an *opportunity* to try to advance.

You can't predict for sure before the competition takes place who's going to make it and who won't, out of the large number of skaters who are always in the lower middle of a field of that nature, those who are usually well inside the middle or even occasionally contend for medals on good days but might be having an extremely bad day due to injury etc., and those who rarely or never beat any of the skaters in the other two categories but have improved a lot over the year and are ready for a breakthrough. The only way to find out which ones will earn the right to advance this year is to have them compete against each other. Doing it with a program that lets them show their best skills, at the competition venue so it doesn't involve possibly traveling to a third continent than where home is and Worlds is being held, seems the most efficient solution.

I would venture to guess that the not so great skaters like that opportunity but for those expected to make it to the top it is nothing more than a practice round. Unfortunately the final results may depend on the QR, as it did for Suguri last year.

It's certainly possible to exempt some skaters from having to qualify, as was done in the mid-90s (I'd rather see a fairer way of doing this than using last year's results at one competition) and not carrying over the qualifying results to the final round.

The SP has all the required elements, which should make it easy to give points and determine who goes to the next round.

Nope.

Supppose that a skater's biggest strengths are jump sequences or combinations of three jumps; incorporating inside axels, split flips, and other 1- and 1.5-revolution jumps within their step sequences or transitions; and/or level-3 spins that rely on multiple changes of foot or flying entries along with changes of foot. None of these elements are allowed within the short program rules, so this skater would not get the opportunity to show what she or he does best in a short program context.

Suppose they're really excellent at the easier triples and shaky on the harder ones. Whether they decide to take the safer route with the lower base mark or to risk falling on the same jumps everyone else is doing, they're already at a disadvantage compared to skaters who happen to be more consistent with the big-ticket jumps but with lower quality or lower consistency in general.

Also, good skaters who might otherwise be medal contenders can screw themselves out of contention, or even out of advancing to the final, with two mistakes in a short program, whereas a long program with two mistakes could still be considered pretty darn good. Not that qual rounds would help these skaters if they don't count toward the final results, but this does prove that short programs are a lot less forgiving.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Supppose that a skater's biggest strengths are jump sequences or combinations of three jumps; incorporating inside axels, split flips, and other 1- and 1.5-revolution jumps within their step sequences or transitions; and/or level-3 spins that rely on multiple changes of foot or flying entries along with changes of foot. None of these elements are allowed within the short program rules, so this skater would not get the opportunity to show what she or he does best in a short program context.

Suppose they're really excellent at the easier triples and shaky on the harder ones. Whether they decide to take the safer route with the lower base mark or to risk falling on the same jumps everyone else is doing, they're already at a disadvantage compared to skaters who happen to be more consistent with the big-ticket jumps but with lower quality or lower consistency in general.

The SP would be the equivalent of the compulsories in gymnastics -- the skills are "easier," but the athlete doesn't get a chance to perform the harder ones in the Finals, unless s/he's done well enough in what is considered the basics.

If there's a minimum level of skill needed to compete for a medal (or top 10 or 12 or 18) at the World Championships, that is determined by the definition of the compulsories. It would be easy enough to say that the total attempted base jump level for Ladies must be a mimumum of 15.7 (2A, 3R/2R, 3F or any combination that meets or exceeds this number.)

Under CoP, skaters are allowed to choose whatever level they want for a required spin, so if a spin is legal under CoP, and it fits into a required category, there's nothing to stop the skater from using the higher-level, more complicated spin (or spiral or footwork sequence.)

Also, good skaters who might otherwise be medal contenders can screw themselves out of contention, or even out of advancing to the final, with two mistakes in a short program, whereas a long program with two mistakes could still be considered pretty darn good. Not that qual rounds would help these skaters if they don't count toward the final results, but this does prove that short programs are a lot less forgiving.

I'm not sure why a qualifying round necessarily should be forgiving in a sport.

Also, as you pointed out, the qualifying round for the Olympics happens outside the Olympics, either through placement at Worlds or an outside qualification competition. That, in effect, makes the SP the qualifying round for singles at the Olympics. While that means that the Olympics judges have fewer skaters to judge against each other in the "first round," at Worlds, judging 40+ skaters' 4-4.5-minute LP's is far more tiring than judging 40+ skaters' 2.5-minute SP's.

Under CoP, since the athletes have total scores, it is also possible to set a minimum score that must be achieved at an international (Junior or Senior) event in order to compete at all, thus achieving the same thing as Olympics qualifying. That would mean every country would not necessarily be able to send a competitor for every event, and the total number of competitors at Worlds might go down, leaving fewer to judge in the SP's.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Quote:

You can't predict for sure before the competition takes place who's going to make it and who won't, out of the large number of skaters who are always in the lower middle of a field of that nature, those who are usually well inside the middle or even occasionally contend for medals on good days but might be having an extremely bad day due to injury etc., and those who rarely or never beat any of the skaters in the other two categories but have improved a lot over the year and are ready for a breakthrough. The only way to find out which ones will earn the right to advance this year is to have them compete against each other. Doing it with a program that lets them show their best skills, at the competition venue so it doesn't involve possibly traveling to a third continent than where home is and Worlds is being held, seems the most efficient solution

Give me a list of 40 skaters and I will pick out the top 18 finishers before the competition. And I will be 99 per cent correct. Not so difficult. However, I will enjoy watching the remaining skaters especially when they moved up from 32nd place last year to 29th this year. I suppose that would be a breakthrough.

If competing with each other is not included in the SP, then what happened? The SP is a test of skills. That was the point of it in the first place. If those skills aren't their best, then what are those skaters doing there in the first place?

I don't think the problem is with the skaters. It is with the judges. Are they up to it? Think of it, 45 ladies skaters, 8 of them skating to Carmen; 3 of them skating to Don Q, 4 of them skating to Malaguena, 2 of them skating to Warsaw concerto, 5 to various pieces of Swan Lake, shall I go on? Boooooring for the judges unless it's a top tier skater.

I really don't think there is a perfect answer to the 'elimination' round but I feel there is a need for one whether it's an LP, and SP, or some other form. Boring judges are not going to be at their best.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

It would be easy enough to say that the total attempted base jump level for Ladies must be a mimumum of 15.7 (2A, 3R/2R, 3F or any combination that meets or exceeds this number.)

That's a bit on the high side in terms of base scores and ignores quality.

True, most of the skaters who attempt less than that are unlikely to get past the short program at Worlds these days, but it has happened, e.g., Mikkeline Kierkgaard at 2000 Worlds (and she was 2nd in her qualifying round, admittedly considerably the easier of the two groups).

It would mean that a skater like Jennifer Don, for instance, who based on her results at other internationals last season would likely have gotten past quals but not past the short had she competed in Dortmund, would either have to attempt jumps in the short she had little prayer of landing or be disqualified before even skating a potentially clean or close-to-clean salchow and toe loop program that was capable of beating lower quality programs with harder jumps from other skaters at similar overall skill levels.

Under CoP, skaters are allowed to choose whatever level they want for a required spin, so if a spin is legal under CoP, and it fits into a required category, there's nothing to stop the skater from using the higher-level, more complicated spin (or spiral or footwork sequence.)

For the spin combination, the criteria for level 2 are

Element includes three of the following features:
• Spin performed with two difficult variations of different positions
• Spin performed on both edges of one foot
• Spin has at least three changes of position which may include final wind-up rotation
• Beginning with flying or backward entry
• Two changes of spinning foot (not for Short Program)
• Execution of spins in both directions (clockwise and counter clockwise) as described above (1)

For a skater who achieves level 2 in the long program by using two-plus changes of foot and/or flying entry as well as one or two of the other criteria, their skills would not allow them to achieve level 2 in the short program.

Also, as you pointed out, the qualifying round for the Olympics happens outside the Olympics, either through placement at Worlds or an outside qualification competition. That, in effect, makes the SP the qualifying round for singles at the Olympics. While that means that the Olympics judges have fewer skaters to judge against each other in the "first round," at Worlds, judging 40+ skaters' 4-4.5-minute LP's is far more tiring than judging 40+ skaters' 2.5-minute SP's.

Which is exactly why the qualifying rounds were judged in two groups by two separate panels.

The proposal to prequalify some skaters through Euros and Four Continents could cut down the number of skaters trying to qualify *at* Worlds enough so that only one group and one judging panel would be needed. Or would you rather turn Euros and 4Cs into the only qualifying competitions themselves?

Under CoP, since the athletes have total scores, it is also possible to set a minimum score that must be achieved at an international (Junior or Senior) event in order to compete at all, thus achieving the same thing as Olympics qualifying. That would mean every country would not necessarily be able to send a competitor for every event, and the total number of competitors at Worlds might go down, leaving fewer to judge in the SP's.

That's possible. But how does that address the situation of, say, a Johnny Weir who didn't compete internationally last season before Worlds, or Stefan Lindemann, who competed poorly in the fall CoP events? They might have no results at all under the existing code of points,* or none that meet the cutoff, even though they could demonstrate in domestic events and after they got to Worlds the ability to score much higher than the cutoff level.

*Surely the code will be revised from time to time, which might make last year's cutoff numbers much too high or too low for this year's code. Skaters who are new on the international scene or have been away for a year or two for whatever reason might not have the international numbers to meet the cutoff.

Of course, one way to solve the problem would be to have the country's highest point total(s) for the discipline determine which countries get to enter one or more than one skater, but it's up to the national federation to determine which individual skater(s) to send, including perhaps surprise national champions who don't have international records at all yet, or not at the senior level or not with high enough marks.

But that doesn't help someone who's the only skater at that level from his or her country who's now returning from injury or other derailment that prevented him/her from racking up an international record the previous season or earlier that season.

And once again I ask, is it OK to hold qualifying rounds at Junior Worlds? If not, how do you decide who among the many young newcomers to international competition get to attend and who must stay home?

 

[hockeyfan228]

That's a bit on the high side in terms of base scores and ignores quality.

True, most of the skaters who attempt less than that are unlikely to get past the short program at Worlds these days, but it has happened, e.g., Mikkeline Kierkgaard at 2000 Worlds (and she was 2nd in her qualifying round, admittedly considerably the easier of the two groups).

It would mean that a skater like Jennifer Don, for instance, who based on her results at other internationals last season would likely have gotten past quals but not past the short had she competed in Dortmund, would either have to attempt jumps in the short she had little prayer of landing or be disqualified before even skating a potentially clean or close-to-clean salchow and toe loop program that was capable of beating lower quality programs with harder jumps from other skaters at similar overall skill levels.

I don't think a skater like Jennifer Don, with little difficult technical content are likely to make it through the qualis into the SP, either. She competed against very few skaters when she won last year, and won one of the first events to use CoP. The skaters and coaches are now more familiar with the system, there are far more competitors at Worlds, and younger skaters have stronger skills. How likely is it that a skater with her skill set would make it out of Nationals in the US, Japan, Russia, Hungary, Ukraine, or even France, Germany, or Canada to be eligible to compete in the first place?

If it takes higher skills to be a top skater, I don't see why higher skills aren't required to qualify.

For the spin combination, the criteria for level 2 are:
Element includes three of the following features:
• Spin performed with two difficult variations of different positions
• Spin performed on both edges of one foot
• Spin has at least three changes of position which may include final wind-up rotation
• Beginning with flying or backward entry
• Two changes of spinning foot (not for Short Program)
• Execution of spins in both directions (clockwise and counter clockwise) as described above (1)

For a skater who achieves level 2 in the long program by using two-plus changes of foot and/or flying entry as well as one or two of the other criteria, their skills would not allow them to achieve level 2 in the short program.

I'm not convinced that one rarely-performed spin -- I don't remember a single one performed by any Ladies skater in Dortmund in the qualis or LP -- being out of contention for the Short Program is putting anyone at a disadvantage, unless it is the second coming of Lucinda Ruh. While I do think it's important to be sure there aren't a lot of unexpected results with an algorithm, creating one to capture a once a generation phenomenon is a rare goal for any system.

The proposal to prequalify some skaters through Euros and Four Continents could cut down the number of skaters trying to qualify *at* Worlds enough so that only one group and one judging panel would be needed. Or would you rather turn Euros and 4Cs into the only qualifying competitions themselves?

Not at all. I suggested that there be a points cut-off -- i.e., a certain minimum score gained at an international competition -- under CoP, it shouldn't matter which one, as long as the judges held the same qualifications -- just as in other sports there is an Olympic qualifying time, distance, or height that an athlete must reach in qualified competitions, or in skating, where some Federations dictate a specific placement at Euros that the skater must reach in order to qualify for Worlds, otherwise, National Champion or not, they aren't sent to Worlds. (Or, like in Germany, they must qualify through a skate-off.)

That's possible. But how does that address the situation of, say, a Johnny Weir who didn't compete internationally last season before Worlds, or Stefan Lindemann, who competed poorly in the fall CoP events? They might have no results at all under the existing code of points,* or none that meet the cutoff, even though they could demonstrate in domestic events and after they got to Worlds the ability to score much higher than the cutoff level.

That was true last year, when there was no history, but there is history now. Lindemann came in 5th at Euros, which certainly, even under CoP would have qualified him, given the difficulty and quality of the programs he did there. Weir might have have incentive to compete at 4C's -- which he turned down last year -- in order to gain enough points to place.

*Surely the code will be revised from time to time, which might make last year's cutoff numbers much too high or too low for this year's code. Skaters who are new on the international scene or have been away for a year or two for whatever reason might not have the international numbers to meet the cutoff.

The gymnastics equivalent is revised every four years, with new cut-offs created. It would not be that difficult to adjust the cut-off or the skills needed to make the cut-off. Less than 10 years ago, a 3A and a 4T were optional skills for men. Now they are required to gain any reasonable results, with the possible exception of cheezefests.

Of course, one way to solve the problem would be to have the country's highest point total(s) for the discipline determine which countries get to enter one or more than one skater, but it's up to the national federation to determine which individual skater(s) to send, including perhaps surprise national champions who don't have international records at all yet, or not at the senior level or not with high enough marks.

But that doesn't help someone who's the only skater at that level from his or her country who's now returning from injury or other derailment that prevented him/her from racking up an international record the previous season or earlier that season.

Your formula is possible, but not necessary, since the Euros and 4C's take place after Nationals in all cases, and a surprise National Champion could qualify at those competitions. Just like other athletes do by having a time or distance or height at an international event during the year.

The skater a cut-off model hurts is a skater with no international competitions or qualifying scores within the last year*, who places high enough in his/her national championship, and is injured or ill and cannot compete at 4C's or Euros in order to qualify.

*Or two, as the elements part of the score could be adjusted for the new weightings, just as last year's quads could be recalculated to reflect the new point values.

And once again I ask, is it OK to hold qualifying rounds at Junior Worlds? If not, how do you decide who among the many young newcomers to international competition get to attend and who must stay home?

Apologies for not addressing this earlier. I see no reason for Jr. Worlds to conform to the same rules as Sr. Worlds, or for there to be any attempt to limit the number of competitors. There are other Sr. Worlds rules that don't apply either, such as program length, well-balanced program definitions, etc.